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Chemtrail disbelievers display the most ignorance.

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posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:06 AM
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Time and time again in discussion concerning suspicious long lasting, cloud forming aircraft trails in the sky commonly referred to as chemtrails, it is the sceptics and attempted debunkers that display the most ignorance. They are most ignorant to the fact that people all over the world have suddenly began to notice and talk about those unusual streaks appearing in the sky that linger around much longer and behave in ways they had not previously been accustomed to witnessing.

The sceptics typically, by their own authority claim to be the proof that chemtrails do not exist.

So, where is the proof that aircraft are not spraying the skies?

For a start, it is not the role of a sceptic to prove anything, ever. The burden of proof lies with the one making the assertion. It is up to those who claim the trails are not normal contrails that must provide the proof and provide evidence to support those claims. A sceptic’s role is to demand proof, not to demand an alternative believe or worse, to shoot a person down for questioning in the first place.

There are many steps taken along the road to providing proof. They begin with observation, theorising, testing, record keeping, making comparisons and finally the creation of hypothesis to be tested and supported. Of course it is possible that along this road mistakes can be made, so called evidence gathered may be tainted or its origin incorrectly assumed. Proof is not maintained unless it is sound and undeniable during all attempts to recreate the conditions that made it so in the first place.

Observation:
Young people who don’t have a history of sky watching, or who may not have a long enough memory record and lack comparison may be excused for trusting that the trails being talked about are normal.

Anyone with more than twenty years of sky observations is simply holding their head in the sand if they too still hold their trust in things being normal. Regardless of what authority they claim to have, an airline pilot of X number of years, aircraft maintenance, weather bureau, ex military or other government worker etc, to ignore a fact noticed my millions around the world, that something has changed, is as ignorant as one can get.

Regardless of their cause, chemical spraying, changes in fuel, different temperatures of modern jet engines, changes in the Earths atmosphere, the sceptics are failing to acknowledge that in recent times something indeed has changed about trails left behind aircraft.

Most people will remember contrails as the long white trail left behind aircraft on some days and how they quickly faded away. Many people can also recall skywriting, where an aircraft expels special smoke, often by burning oil, to spell out a slogan of some sort in the sky, which may stay visible for some minutes at a time before either being torn apart by the winds or dispersal of the smoke.

The change in some aircraft trails that has been observed and talked about regarding the so called chemtrails is how long they tend to stay in the sky and how they will also spread out in a fashion causing an appearance of overcast clouds. People have commented that a beautiful blue sky can be ruined by these trails that form clouds that spread out and fill they sky lasting for hours.

They are the observations, not by one or a few, but by millions of people world wide.

Theorising:
When people notice a change in something, curiosity can lead to many creative reasons for the change. It is typical practice to first examine what is known about the thing in question in the first place. In the case of long lasting, cloud forming aircraft trails, it is necessary to examine the phenomena of contrails. When what is known about contrails does not conform to what is observed with the long lasting, cloud forming trails, the next step is to theorise on what the difference could be due to.

Here is where the fun begins and the sceptics are able to turn up the volume.

Theories based on Internet gathered pictures and documents, taken out of context open the door and invite people with some knowledge of the original pictures and or documents, to shout down those attempting to come to reason with their observations. Once that door is open, the self appointed authorities on contrails with their loud voices are able to point at the misguided attempts at explaining the trails in question and ignorantly claim that every theory fits into the same category.

Testing:
Regardless of what the origin may be, people have gathered and tested what they claim has fallen from the sky after so called chemtrails have appeared in the sky overhead. Air quality samples have also been tested and documented and tend to support a recent change. Clearly, regardless how it got there, something that was not previously falling from the sky is now falling from the sky. Or rather, what was once not in the air or in the air in small amounts is now in the air or in the air in larger amounts. To deny this is to be ignorant of the testing taking place.

Have any of the noisy sceptics been testing air quality and comparing samples over a number of decades?

Keeping Records:
Sceptics have pointed to videos and photos from decades ago, particularly World War II archives that show many contrails filling the sky. They’ll point out how it was a curse on the aircraft for it made them easier to spot from the air. None of these archive evidence shows the same sky an hour later after the planes had left the scene. They are simply showing that contrails exist, which hardly anyone would question.

On the other hand, many videos and photos posted on the Internet by those who claim to have captured chemtrails have actually mistaken normal contrails. These people demonstrating ignorance of contrails and making assumptions about their photos give the sceptics even more ammunition to shout about.

However, there are time lapse photos and videos showing trails that do not conform to expected contrail behaviour have been made from all over the world and as more people have become aware of the difference there will be many more recordings in the future.

Unfortunately, in the case of aircraft leaving these suspicious trails being military, flight records and other data is off limits to civilians and the military is not going to publicly announce what they are doing.

Comparisons:
Only a fool may not recognise an apple is indeed nothing like an orange.

People see what they do see, this is not a mass hallucination, but instead many people are noticing that compared with the sky they remember and the sky they witness today, it is a case of apples and oranges.

Even if people are simply annoyed by a “mess” in the sky and make no claims about the trails creation, people have noticed a difference, especially, when they outlast a soft drink advertisement that has obviously been sprayed in the sky using smoke from burning oil. It is the hight of ignorance to suggest that the comparisons made by observations do not exist.

Hypothesis:
It stands to reason that with observations of change to the type of aircraft trails occurring in the sky, theories examined and not discounted, testing showing a change in air quality, photographic and video records of the new behaviour, and making comparisons with the past, a simple hypothesis will arise.

“These new aircraft trails behave differently to how we have previously known contrails to behave and therefore are not created the same way as contrails.”

Now it is up to someone to prove how these long lasting trails are formed, not by speculation but with action that can be reproduced time again.

How can you prove an aircraft trail is not a contrail?
Probably not very easy at all and almost impossible from the ground:
* Fly up to a suspicious trail and gather samples while it is still in the sky.
* Follow an aircraft that has left one of the suspicious trails and examine it.
* If you pilot one, call the press and make an emergency landing in a public airport with your loaded aircraft.
* Use of some highly sophisticated scientific apparatus that can determine what the trails consist of.

An experiment that may assist to disprove chemtrails:
From ATS Thread: Chemtrails cloaking nibiru?

1) Observe type of aircraft and weather conditions that allow the creation of long lasting, cloud forming contrails.
2) Reproduce it.
3) Invite media and others interested to examine said aircraft before flight, using al sorts of chemical testing etc.
4) Take air quality samples regularly through the next 24 hour period.
5) Have one group of media go up in the said aircraft to verify the actual plane being witnessed by the other media group on the ground is the one they have vetted.


Conclusion:
Unfortunately a high level of ignorance exists on both sides of the discussion regarding long lasting aircraft trails that stay in the sky for hours and turn into overcast clouds. Simply shouting at people for raising concerns will not solve any issues. Regardless of personal employment history, or self claimed authority, unless one has produced and reproduced contrails that conform to the type of trails in question, the long lasting spreading ones, and can provide the evidence, then one has no proof and is simply being a windmill, adding noise in these types of discussions.

“Although you flourish more arms that the giant Briareus, you shall pay for it!”


~ To the military, private and commercial airline industry.
Regardless of their cause, contrail or otherwise, a large and growing group of concerned people are not happy with the phenomena and have as little regard for it as they would noise pollution. I consider myself within that group. We miss our blue skies and the military, private and commercial airline industry must do something about preventing it.
If it is not spray, discover what speeds, altitudes, temperatures, or whatever combinations are responsible and modify your behaviour to prevent these ugly trails from destroying our blue skies.

Many kind regards
With love
XXX
edit on 20/1/2011 by Hammaraxx because: needed to fix BB code for link to ATS thread URL (overlooked in preview)




posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:17 AM
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Chemtrails are in India too.


Thanks great thread, I live in India, and have traveled many parts of it, every year I see chem-trails in our skies, they first started appearing in mid1990s here mostly in cities, Now they have changed there focus to more rural areas and right on top of our food crops. It is clear to me that they want to poison our food and make us sick. And it is truly a global agenda of elites which is right in front of our eyes.
edit on 20/1/11 by vinay86 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:20 AM
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There is a very similar thread to this on the board, I think it is the top one on the replies side..

2nd



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:23 AM
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This couldn't be added to one of the two or three currently very active threads on the subject? You really, really needed your own thread to call out your opinion of ignorance? The most ignorance? Really? The most as compared to what or whom? The most ignorance because they're on the other side of the debate? Smells like a flaming thread to me. Sorry.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:41 AM
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reply to post by Hammaraxx
 


The OP may find this interesting

www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 20-1-2011 by gandalphthegrey because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 06:47 AM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 
Flaming was not the intent, but an observation of the behaviour of sceptics in general. Please, read the post and not just the heading, if you did I apologise.

I have tried to remain impartial to the actual discussion of whether or not the trails are chemtrails or just contrails. What I am trying to point out is the very often cruel method sceptics with little or nothing to support them, go about shouting at and shooting down any mention of chemtrails.

I believe it should be a serious discussion, either chemtrails or just ugly contrails, I don’t like them filling my sky. I’d like a solution and am tired of being told it’s normal when it’s not.

Own thread for this? Yes. It’s not actually about chemtrails but the common reaction of sceptics. I spent an afternoon trying to word it as best I could and don’t think it belongs lost in a “see my photos of chemtrails” thread.
As for sides, I stated in the post ignorance clearly exists on both sides. The sceptic is ignoring one main fact. Whatever they are they are making a mess of our skies and that is upsetting people shouting at them is not helpful.

Many kind regards



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by Hammaraxx
 

I read your OP, and my answer too was about the common reaction of skeptics. That is a fact of life on a site like this...people are going to disagree. All the time and often. We don't need threads calling out this fact. Just my opinion.
____________________

I came back to say that I don't disagree with your points and maybe that the title of the thread did affect my comments more than it should have. That being said, this is probably among the most volatile of topics on the boards for some reason, and it's a shame that there can't be more respect and/or cooperation about it. It's hard when you can't get a handle on something you know is happening but have no way to prove.
edit on 1/20/2011 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:24 AM
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reply to post by Hammaraxx
 

science is what people use to explain the lines in the sky. Meteorology to be exact. If you have some new way to deal with data, upper atmosphere conditions and such, please explain it so that we can all learn something.
edit on 20-1-2011 by network dude because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:27 AM
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reply to post by network dude
 



Loved your thread on this subject , dude


www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 20-1-2011 by gandalphthegrey because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:48 AM
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Excellent reality check to deny ignorance.
With the aircraft that are leaving these long cloud trails have any scientific studies been done to assess the composition of the fuel? Eg presence of silver iodide or some other containments to explain the unusual exhaust behaviour. This is one relativity simple test that can be performed to ascertain the cause and threat of this highly debated new phenomena.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Hammaraxx
 

science is what people use to explain the lines in the sky. Meteorology to be exact. If you have some new way to deal with data, upper atmosphere conditions and such, please explain it so that we can all learn something.
edit on 20-1-2011 by network dude because: (no reason given)




If you have some new way of proving that the government is transparent about everything, and that they don't withold information from the public which would be damning to them, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that the government story about 9/11 is accurate, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that the birds fell out of the sky because of fireworks, please provide it se we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that all the white lines in the sky are contrails, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that there are no masonic levels above 33 and that, apart from the odd abherent exception all masons are honest, good people, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that the war in Afghanistan is about Al Qaieda, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that the spraying of millions of barrells of Corexit in the GoM is necessary, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that the banksters work for the good of the people, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that all scientists are open and transparent and never work to keep government secrets secret, please provide it so we can all learn something.

If you have some way of proving that the meteorlogical office would provide the public with information on a secret black ops, please provide it so we can all learn something.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 08:38 AM
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Ah, this sums it up pretty well






posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by wcitizen

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Hammaraxx
 

science is what people use to explain the lines in the sky. Meteorology to be exact. If you have some new way to deal with data, upper atmosphere conditions and such, please explain it so that we can all learn something.
edit on 20-1-2011 by network dude because: (no reason given)




If you have some new way of proving that the government is transparent about everything, and that they don't withold information from the public which would be damning to them, please provide it so we can all learn something.


while your episode is wildly off topic, I will play along.

they government will hide anything they want from you and you can not change that, except to become a person in the loop.


If you have some way of proving that the government story about 9/11 is accurate, please provide it so we can all learn something.


I think it's a lie. How much I cannot say, but just one little one is enough to warrant a new investigation.


If you have some way of proving that the birds fell out of the sky because of fireworks, please provide it se we can all learn something.

I think they hit a UFO. Yea, I am crazy.


If you have some way of proving that all the white lines in the sky are contrails, please provide it so we can all learn something.

they are clouds. once they leave the plane that is. I would bet your life on it.


If you have some way of proving that there are no masonic levels above 33 and that, apart from the odd abherent exception all masons are honest, good people, please provide it so we can all learn something.

I already did. I joined. What did you do?


If you have some way of proving that the war in Afghanistan is about Al Qaieda, please provide it so we can all learn something.

Al Qaieda is a made up entity of the CIA. There are people who hate us, but most of them hate us because we are blowing them up. We should try to be nicer.


If you have some way of proving that the spraying of millions of barrells of Corexit in the GoM is necessary, please provide it so we can all learn something.

I think that it was done to make the oil sink to the bottom so BP could clean up their image and forget about the oil.


If you have some way of proving that the banksters work for the good of the people, please provide it so we can all learn something.

they work for the good of their pockets. Don't be silly.


If you have some way of proving that all scientists are open and transparent and never work to keep government secrets secret, please provide it so we can all learn something.

some do, some don't, you prove which ones are evil.


If you have some way of proving that the meteorlogical office would provide the public with information on a secret black ops, please provide it so we can all learn something.


if it's a secret, nobody should know about it. that's why it's a secret.






posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Hammaraxx
The sceptics typically, by their own authority claim to be the proof that chemtrails do not exist.


No, a debunker declares they don't exist. A skeptic demands you prove they do.


So, where is the proof that aircraft are not spraying the skies?


You fail to understand the burden of proof. Those claiming the existence of anything bear the burden of proof to others. Otherwise, all claims are true until proven otherwise.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by Hammaraxx
 


You chemtrail fruits are sure long winded.

Get this: they are CONTRAILS from jets. End of story. I grew up around two naval air stations and an airforce base - none of the pictures of these supposed "chemtrails" shows a damned thing I haven't seen before.

If chem trail disbelievers show the most ignorance, then chem trail believers seem to revel in their own stupidity the most.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:01 PM
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Whenever I read these diatribes it sounds very much like Christians calling other people ignorant because they do not accept Jesus Christ as the personal Lord and Savior. You call this "denying ignorance" and I call it promoting it. To mistake typical contrails for some insiduous plot against humanity is the peak of ignorance and fantasy. Have some more Kool Aid. It's good for you!



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by schuyler
 


Insidious plot against humanity?



Not everyone who promotes the awareness of chemtrails thinks the intent is nefarious.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 04:57 PM
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It's not that they display the most ignorance, I think it's because of numerous reasons. People are afraid of the truth that scares them. Some simply can't imagine that their government would do something like ChemTrails. These are the same that believe in the Magic Bullet Theory. Even though they can plainly see SOMETHING doesn't add up, they stick to their guns and say Nothing to see here.

In regards to ChemTrails. I have a big family, with brothers, sisters and a Dad who is in law enforcement, the Navy, air traffic controller, etc. When I was a kid and playing baseball, I never these white lines in the sky. I was out doors ALL of the time and, living next to one of the busiest airports in the world for now over 40 years, I've always looked up to the sky. I can tell you what airplane is over head without even looking.

For the disbelievers out there, please believe me when I say there is SOMETHING going on up in our skies. I have nothing to gain from telling you this, except the truth, and that's what I'm searching for. I want to know what's going on up there because it is effecting my family, you, and me. I'm not the only one who wants to know. Many Congressmen are now on record asking to get to the bottom of ChemTrails.

For you disbelievers out there, remember, planes fly in a pattern, whether it's on take-off or approach. ChemTrail planes fly OUTSIDE of these normal patterns --you see them criss-crossing other white lines, you see them all over the sky. You need TOP LEVEL clearance to fly outside normal jet patterns.

I've participated in many ChemTrail threads with this information. I have photos of 1 ChemPlane, 2 ChemPlanes flying side by side spraying, and I even have one of a DRONE flying next to a plane as it is spraying. To do these maneuvers, you need TOP LEVEL clearance! THE FAA doesn't allow ANY aircraft to fly side by side within so many feet of one another. But, guess who supersedes the FAA? That's right! And that's who these ChemTrail Planes belong to. These planes are going over the heads of the FAA top brass!

For those who don't believe, I accept that, and I don't insult you, so please don't insult what I believe. I'm not alone, like I mentioned above --people in office want to know what's going on! It's the talk of some police stations, it's the talk of some work environments, but I can tell you one place it's not allowed to be discussed --The Tower.

My advice to the ones who don't believe, please get involved more instead of criticizing those who do see something going on. Do research. Ask around --people in different professions. If you're involved with your church, ask around.

Something is happening up there --it isn't regular contrails and it isn't normal and it is blackops, there's no doubt about that. It's up to each of us to hold our representatives accountable and when they fail to do the work, to vote in someone who will.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by Hammaraxx
 


I respectfully disagree with everything you say.

I have spent a long time researching chemtrails.

My conclusions are that they are the figment of peoples imaginations and are nothing more than contrails.

But I could be wrong, so I and many others have tried assisting chemtrailers with gathering their proof and along the way, deny ignorance:


For example, I've provided examples of air sample test:

files.abovetopsecret.com...

files.abovetopsecret.com...

Providing alternate and more realistic explanations as to why substances such as barium and aluminium are found in higher levels in places:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have provided links to air and soil sample kits that can be bought and also provided links to labs that can test these samples for them:

Soil sample kit



Air sampling unit




State by State list of soil labs

Air quality consultants

I've provided a baseline for normal aircraft emissions:

www.coas.oregonstate.edu...



And a means to collect samples directly from contrails:


Requests for access to research flight hours begin with the submission of an Initial Request for Aircraft Support (Word (35kb), PDF (30kb)) to the manager of the facility. Based on information provided on this form, a DOE-empowered advisory panel recommends to DOE an award of flight hours for the proposed use. Then the user completes a more detailed Research Aircraft Deployment Document (RADD: Word (180kb), PDF (85kb)) in coordination with the RAF manager. RAF users not associated with the DOE Atmospheric Science Program will need to work with the RAF manager on an estimate of the cost of offsite aircraft logistics such as 1) landing fees, 2) hangar rental, 3) ground support facilities, and 4) labor and expenses for a PNNL flight crew of two pilots and two scientific support personnel. During the preparation of RADD, schedules are confirmed and safety and environmental compliance requirements are addressed.

The RAF does not cover the cost of engineering studies and airframe modifications needed for custom installation of project-specific equipment and instrumentation. Such costs must be budgeted separately through a contract with PNNL or Battelle. When requested, RAF staff will assist users in estimating these costs.


www.pnl.gov...


Gulfstream-1 Research Aircraft

The G-1 is a large twin turboprop with performance characteristics of contemporary production aircraft. It is capable of measurements to altitudes approaching 30,000 feet over ranges of 1500 nautical miles, and can be operated at speeds that enable both relatively slow sampling and rapid deployment to field sites throughout the world. The aircraft is configured for versatile research applications. It accommodates a variety of external probes for aerosol, radiation, and turbulence measurements and internal sampling systems for a wide range of measurements. The G-1 has sufficient cabin volume, electrical power and payload capabilities, and flight characteristics to accommodate a variety of instrument systems and experimental equipment configurations. Internal instrumentation is mounted in removable racks to enable rapid reconfiguration as necessary. Data from most systems are acquired on a central computer that is tailored to airborne research data acquisition. In addition to acquiring the various analog and digital input signals, it can be configured to communicate with and/or control other systems onboard, and to provide time synchronization to other computers.


www.pnl.gov...

OzWeatherman has explained in the simplest terms, numerous times at how contrails form, where and when they'll form and why they form.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

All of this get's ignore by the chemtrailers, why?

Who is being ignorant again??




edit on 20/1/11 by Chadwickus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2011 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by Chadwickus
My hat is off to you Chadwickus,

You definitely DO NOT belong in the “display the most ignorant” group.

Of all the people online offering an alternative view to the “chemtrailers”, you and OzWeatherman have demonstrated a high level of civility, honest straight forward information. And as your response to this thread shows, polite too. I am aware that my post must have offended you and for that I am sincerely sorry. I guess for me, it has been a case of too many loud bad apples…

I have taken the time to follow your links and the trails they lead to, in particular the Department of Environment and Conservation website and many of the documents they have online.

I found the information in your post about Barium and AluminiumL: Manufacturing Industry - The REAL Chem Trail particularly interesting. Good to know really, but still, how bad is that?

OzWeatherman's post: Why the Chemtrail Conspiracy is Unplausible, and Meteorologically Innacurate He concluded with the offer: "If anyones interested in checking their area for contrails just ask, Im happy to provide and upper air interpret data for them to check against their observations."
Being in Australia too, I will take him up on that in the future.

In his Contrail/ Chemtrail Research Thread (started in August 2009 and still going
) he has given weather data for areas where people claim to have seen the trails. His data points to high moisture levels being a catalyst for causing the long lasting trails. It may also be possible that high moisture days are best to spray too, so unfortunately even that is not evidence alone.

Although all of that information is quite good and sound regarding air samples, and OzWeatherman's explanation of what contrails are, it still doesn’t discount or make up for the observations millions of people have made that they had not seen this phenomena until the recent decade. This issue alone has caused people to turn to the internet where they’ve found their ‘wonderful’ conspiracy ideas and can not be swept under the carpet as easily as saying “just contrails fool!”

There is something strange about their appearance, like when and where they are put in the sky that doesn’t seem normal at all, to deny that without 100% guaranteed evidence and first hand knowledge i.e. “well, I was flying one of those aircraft and…”. Any suggestion, whether you agree it is a result of spraying or simple contrails is still guess work without that.


Originally posted by Hammaraxx
Regardless of their cause, chemical spraying, changes in fuel, different temperatures of modern jet engines, changes in the Earths atmosphere, the sceptics are failing to acknowledge that in recent times something indeed has changed about trails left behind aircraft.
If nothing is being sprayed, and the suspect trails are simply contrails, the aviation industry (military, commercial and private) must know under what conditions they are produced and could easily reproduce them for demonstration purposes. If they are just contrails and they know what conditions are creating them it is time for a change in their behaviour. It is graffiti in the sky, it’s ugly, it takes away our beautiful blue skies, ruins our view of the stars and it is time for that to stop.

But thank you for proving my gross generalisation to be false in some cases.
I truly hope you and OzWeatherman are correct, but I still can’t help wondering.
~ Namaste


PS: traditionaldrummer the very next paragraph in the OP explains the burden of proof, just as you did

Also, in the photo in your Avatar you (and even the drums) look very much like the old drummer of the Australian band The Blowflies. www.theblowflies.com...
I know you’re not the same drummers, but wow.





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