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WW3 - Close Examination

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posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 01:43 AM
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It seems that many here have considered the possibility of a WW3. While it may be easy to dismiss such an event from happening altogether within the next ten years, one must consider the political tensions and border disputes as of late. I will conduct a closer examination of WW3 in the following.

Firstly, the conflicts! Quite possibly the most dangerous conflicts as of now are concentrated in the Middle East, the increasing threats by N. Korea to invade S. Korea, and the China-Taiwan debate.

Now, before going any further, we must examine the sides involved. After careful study, I've found the following to be the most plausible:

USA (US foreign policy in recent years has unarguably brought many to think of the US as a "global police force," and thus they are likely to be involved in all conflicts), EU (USA's closest ally), South Korea (obviously will be involved in the Korean conflict)

vs.

Many Middle Eastern countries (Afghanistan, Iran possibly, etc. I'm leaving out Palestine in this listing as I will elaborate on that soon!), Russia/China (apparently Russia/China have a pact and close ties. According to treaties, Russia is to recognize China's sovereignty over Taiwan and various other agreements. According to the pact, Russia will be invadnig Taiwan alongside China if Taiwan is to ever declare independance.), and N. Korea (obviously involved in the Korean conflict)

Now, you may have clearly noticed I left out Israel/Palestine. The reason for this is that Israel is torn apart between the two. The US has aided Israel countless times whilst the Israeli/Chinese relationships are growing (J-10 fighter having been developed by joint Israeli/Chinese cooperation). Obviously, there is war in the Israeli/Palestinian borders and let's not forget that!

It should be clear as to how any WW3 may begin. The Israeli/Palestinian border dispute has been raging for years with little aggression from the Israeli side (if Israel were to take an aggressive stance, I fear there would be no more Palestine as we know it). However, the two major events that would spark such a war would be the Chinese invasion of Taiwan and the North Korean invasion of South Korea or vise versa (the latter being highly doubtful as neither countries threatened to be invaded are on an offensive stance).

Now, popular among WW3 scenarios is the "nuclear armaggedon" theory. If one has nuclear capability and is on the verge of destruction by an opposing force, what do you think one would do? Launch the nukes of course. As many of you are aware, one nuke being launched threatens an entire exchange of nukes from all participating countries. While I will not go over nuclear capability of each nation, realize that many countries are able to hit US soil and vise versa. There is reason to believe that NK is able to hit the western coast of the US and that China is able to nuke about 90% of US territory if not all (I've elaborated on this here). Evidently, Russia is able to nuke the US at any position. However, let's not dismiss the fact that the US has many more nukes than all these opposing countries combined and the EU & Israel also have nuclear capability.

Common amongst WW3 theorists today is the fact that if America rushes the Patriot System and the like then it will be able to fend off nuclear attacks. Yes, I am informed that the Patriot System was a failure but let us assume that the US does come out with an anti-missile defense. In the case of the Patriot system, the US is exhausting one "anti-nuke missile" per nuke it destroys. If the US does rush an anti-nuke system in a ever nearing WW3, chances are it will:

1) Prove unstable and unworthy.
2) Not contain an adequate amount of "anti-nuke missiles" to power it for a reasonable amount of time. Eventually the U.S. would be "nuke flooded."
3) Completely fail and have wasted government money.

The only capable defense in such a situation is SDI Defense but that is planned for release after another 10 years (from what I know, I don't think there will be any major pauses that will set back this planned release)!

Now, nukes aside, let us examine the military. The US will be fighting a three front war due to its global police-like foreign policy (the fronts being Israel/Palestine, NK/SK, China/Taiwan)! Now considering Russia's threat and if it keeps its promises as agreed by the pact created between China/Russia then the US and her allies may be up in four fronts!

Israel has a modernized military more or less. They are capable of the destruction of Palestine although the Israeli army does not permit Israeli soldiers to open fire unless friendly forces are under attack by an enemy army and the like.

The EU is another force with a modernized military. While Europe may not be the center of foreign influence anymore (compared to the US), Europe is still up there with the elite. European involvement in any war these days is obviously favorable to any country (depending on Europe's siding though lol). With France's Mirage fighters, the RAF's Sea Harriers, etc. Europe has obviously proved itself to have a capable military.

Basically, the US and her allies have similar capability due to constant US aiding. However, it is clear that the US has a far greater military than her allies.

Now, let's take a look at the other side.

Beginning with the M. East, terrorist groups in that area have proved more than a threat to the US. Split on many fronts and combating guerilla warfare, wouldn't US military power be weakened heavily?

Russia has a very modernized military that is just one step short from US military technology. Nevertheless, another Cold War would not be in the best interests of the US especially with a number of their troops stationed elsewhere. Russia also has a huge supply of uranium and nukes.

China has relatively old technology but has the advantage of greater numbers. Aside from that, their navy is weak but they have a highly capable missile defense (cruise missiles, ICBM's, IRBM's, etc.).

N. Korea has mouthed constant threats to S. Korea and the US alike. While the NK regime is weakening day by day and the population starving, one may wonder how powerful the NK military actually is. NK is also suspected of holding nukes.

Now probably the most popular argument among these forums: the USAF F/A-22 Raptor. Now let's go back to WW2 for a moment. Germany had an all-powerful tank: the Panzer VI Tiger II, more commonly known as the King Tiger. This tank was literally invincible for its time. 10 years later it was still a great tank. There is no documented evidence of a King Tiger being destroyed in battle by enemy forces. However, did Nazi Germany win the war even with such superior technology? This applies to the Raptor as well. Superior technology helps, but in the end it will not win a war for you. The King Tiger had about a 40:0 kill ratio. My source? A quote from a King Tiger operative:

"On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg stood a further 11 Stalin tanks, and away on the egde of the village itself were around 120-150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled and re-armed. I opened fire and destroyed first and last of the 11 Stalin tanks on the road....My own personal score of enemy tanks destroyed in this action was 39."

King Tiger Profile

Now, I'm hearing numbers for the F-22 kill ratio to be about 10:1 to 15:1. The King Tiger's kill ratio soars above this yet Germany did not win the war. Moreover, Germany had over 400 King Tigers produced throughout the war. Now if anyone has numbers for the amount of Raptors produced, please do share! Although, I highly doubt the government has even 400 Raptors due to the high cost.

Now, I know I may not have covered everything but this is basically some information people should be considering. I have read many mindless, for lack of better words, posts about U.S. dominance in the event of a war. I have nothing against the U.S. but I think some should really open up to reality. Fighting on 3-4 fronts against opponents they are already struggling with (Middle East) and army ever declining in numbers (heck, they even advertise commercials on TV for the US Army in hopes of recruiting more numbers) it would be unreasonable to claim that the US would so easily dominate. Only time can tell the outcome if there in fact will be a victor although let us hope that a WW3 may never come.




posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 01:58 AM
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Just remember...It wouldn't be just the US fighting on 3-4 fronts, The US's allies would also be fighting on a few of those fronts too...if not all...



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 02:14 AM
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A war on this scale would result in a nuclear war I dont know who would launch first someone who started to lose would launch and it would be game over for all of us. And for what a small island off china and two other small countries. Seems like a waste to me



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 12:15 PM
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US millitary doctrine dictates that it be able to fight in 2 main theatres of war. more to the point, Asia and the Middle east in this case.

Assuming that Russia gets involved in this is silly. What does Russia have to gain by invading Taiwan with China? All they are going to do is go to war with the US - and for what? Someone elses land? Doubt it - the Russians aren't that stupid.

This leaves the US to fight China, Korea, and in the Middle east.

As the US has shown, it can dominate the Middle east when it wants to (in a strict millitary sense) on airpower alone.

The US would probably give up South Korea for a short time if the North went full on attack (lack of men there), but reclaim it after some time.

China would be stoped by the US navy - it is well known that China could not land on Taiwan if the US navy interviened. No boat would make it to shore.

This all of course assumes no nukes......



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 12:37 PM
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Great post Blackout.
I will simply offer My opinion on this outlook.

If US continues its current foreign policy, the scenario you outlined is possible. It will mean the end of current civilization. With the recent disclose on ET, I would think ET will prevent this from happening.

In terms of conflict in East Asia, between China and US+Japan. I believe Russia will try to stay away and benefit from their weapon sales. EU will not enter the fray, at least France and Germany will stay away.

Eventually when everyting settles there will be now more China and US power. EU with France, Germany and Russia will be the King of the world.

As I have always stated, war between US and China means that China will be destroyed, so will be the US. Let China and US be friends, not enemy.



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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My personal opinion is that China, India, and the US will eventually be the sole remaining allies against the spread of fanatical Islam and the barbarism it will bring to those that will not see it coming.



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by American Mad Man
US millitary doctrine dictates that it be able to fight in 2 main theatres of war. more to the point, Asia and the Middle east in this case.

Assuming that Russia gets involved in this is silly. What does Russia have to gain by invading Taiwan with China? All they are going to do is go to war with the US - and for what? Someone elses land? Doubt it - the Russians aren't that stupid.

This leaves the US to fight China, Korea, and in the Middle east.

As the US has shown, it can dominate the Middle east when it wants to (in a strict millitary sense) on airpower alone.

The US would probably give up South Korea for a short time if the North went full on attack (lack of men there), but reclaim it after some time.

China would be stoped by the US navy - it is well known that China could not land on Taiwan if the US navy interviened. No boat would make it to shore.

This all of course assumes no nukes......


Russia will make no gain from invading Taiwan. The fact that their economy has just drowned after the collapse of the USSR basically explains it. China's economy is up there at the top and Russia needs money to bounce back up. By selling weapons to China, Russia is able to move back up. Under such an agreement, Russia is to aid an invasion of Taiwan for that matter.

Another reason for Russia's invasion of Taiwan is the US backing of Taiwan. Russia and the US have been long-term enemies. Russia hopes for a chance to settle old scores and perhaps gain glory. Ultimately, it is clear that both China/Russia despise such US influence in foreign affairs.

Now note that the US military personnel count is very low as of now (source). With a very small force, I doubt the US is able to concentrate on two fronts for that matter.

Now with a small force and the threat of a huge war, obviously the first thought that comes to mind is a draft. It may take several months if not years to train new personnel and equip them for war. Otherwise, they are basically cannon fodder. Remember that foreigners constantly characterize the majority of the US population to be obese men and women sitting at their couch watching TV. Although there is nothing wrong with being lazy
, this is probably the largest obstacle in drafting. Men and women of today don't want to go to war, especially with their lack of faith in US military strength due to their recent mediocre reprensentations of military power and policies in the M. East wars.

Now, remember WW2? Yes, there was a draft. However, a draft in WW2 would be much easier than a WW3 drafting scenario. One reason is the obesity problem listed above which can take quite the time to work off (although, the US does have a high amount of capable men but the problem is that they are not using their max potential with McDonalds in the way). Another reason is that their is no evil dictator out to conquer the world as with WW2. Yes, I'm aware that the NK is under the rule of an evil dictator but the chances are that the NK are the least likely country to go about conquering the world in WW3 in the manner Hitler did in WW2 (especially being surrounded by two powerful neighbors). Thus, the general US population may have less morale and desire to fight for that matter. Another factor deterring US personnel morale is the nuclear capabilities of possible participants. Why go to war when all your efforts will eventually be clouded by a nuclear armaggedon?

As for the US waiting on the Korean front, I highly doubt it. Imagine the US reputation for years to come! With Bush establishing the US as a rather "heroic" country more or less that is to help others establish a democracy and free them from harsh dictatorship, lack of concentration on the Korean front will hurt the US reputation big time especially if S. Korea is captured/destroyed by N. Korea.

Yes, it is true that China will not commence an invasion on Taiwan with a US navy force surrounding the country. However, with Russian assistance it should not be a matter to be quickly dismissed.


In terms of conflict in East Asia, between China and US+Japan. I believe Russia will try to stay away and benefit from their weapon sales. EU will not enter the fray, at least France and Germany will stay away.


Perhaps my history's a bit rusty or I haven't paid much attention to Japan, but I was under the impression that Japan is to have no military under the agreement of their unconditional surrender during WW2?

All in all, I don't think any of the major players will remain a superpower after the war even if nukes were not used. My best guess would be Israel ending up as a superpower. Once again, let's go back to WW1/WW2. America waited out on these European wars because they arguably were not more powerful than the aggressors (keep in mind America was not recognized as a superpower until after WW2 and their dropping of the Atom Bomb, which involved Nazi technology to begin with. While I won't get into America's stealing of Nazi tech/Atom Bomb I would suggest everyone read up secret Nazi technology and the development of the Atom Bomb. Good read
). America kept itself from being pounded by the European powers during these wars (especially from German bombings ranging from aerial bombardments, ground invasions, and V1/V2 rocket launchings). If America had officially declared itself as to be siding with the Allies at the beginning of any of the World Wars, America's position in foreign affairs would not be where it is today. German subs would have sunk US ships like crazy while German troops would have been sailing to America preparing for a Blitzkrieg operation, which had tremendous success against the Allied powers. For all we know there would be no White House in WA DC today. However, let's not roll off into WW2 possibilities. As stated previously, the state of Israel is torn apart in such a war. Its improving relationships with China and its friendship with the US will most likely force Israel into neutrality. While each faction is pounding at eachother with whatever means available, Israel will sit quietly as did the US and eventually rise out of the ashes as a superpower (since their greatest threat is the Palestinians which don't cause severe damage). Furthermore, this would support an Armaggedon theory with something along the lines of a great capital city being established at Jerusalem.

Just jogging everyone's mind
.



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 02:01 PM
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The world's getting closer, and closer to the brink of war, and since most of the countries you mentioned have nuclear weapons, they might just kill us all.



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 08:45 PM
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Following is a good analysis in Arab Theatre in WW3:

the law of unintended consquences
by econ Guest on 10.07.2004 [19:12 ] [Score:0.00]


"The question becomes, how would Iran respond? It might shoot some missiles at Tel Aviv, but absent at least "dirty bomb" or bio-engineered warheads, that is not likely to accomplish much."

The Iraq war has shown how unintended consquences can occur even with all the best US plans that billions of US dollars can buy and 13 years of no-fly-zones bombings. The US is still being defeated in Iraq.

(Everyday the US is looking more like Germany circa 1929. A failed, desperate and de-industrialized nation, deep in massive debt that it cannot repay, facing a massive currency crisis that will lead to default and hyperinflation, embarks on futile oil wars to save its dwindling empire. We even had our own Reichstag fire on September 11, that was blamed on 'terrorists' to artificially boost nationalism to justify the useless wars.) This is the scenario that Lind ought to consider before his "October Surprise."

Iran has already said that any attack on its nuclear plants will be considered a war declaration and this will set the stage for WW3.

The entire region will go up in flames. Israel is counting on the defective US patriot missiles to defend itself from incoming missiles. The US is NOT assured a victory in WW3.

The problem for Israel will be how to wage a war and not allow its tiny country to be destroyed in the process. Remember Israel has already imploded (economically) due to the effective Intifada that has destroyed their tourism industry and their ONLY source of internal income. Israel does not have the means to pay for an extended war, neither does the US.

This leaves Israel totally dependent on American welfare for survival.

Iran's nuclear capability is unknown so a nuclear attack could be a tit-for-tat affair.

You can already see the Syrian, Lebanese and Iranian strategy in a new war and they will go all out this time and destroy Tel-aviv and Haifa, already weakened economically.

Even with US aid, the jews will have nothing left to return to in Israel after the war.


Lind keeps forgetting that Hezzbola (one of Iran's army) is sitting at Israel's borders are just waiting for the signal to begin their bombardment and the new Middle East war.

It will be in the interest of the Arabs to make sure that a new war in Iraq is long lasting as they consider the economic costs and post war scenario that could occur.

America (and Europe) will need oil from the region so it would hardly make sense to use nuclear weapons since the radiation contamination would prevent oil extraction. A nuclear attack to intimidate Arabs like it did Japan will not work this time around.

Iraq has shown how to defeat a superpower as the US is burdened down in Iraq and doesn't have the resources for another extended war anywhere.

The US with its troops stuck in the mud in Iraq will be useless and ample targets. Supply routes will be cut off in Iraq by the Shia and Sunni Resistance. The Iraq war has shown the limitations of American technology and the financial cost of even such a small war. Iraq alone is costing $200 billion a year. A new war will cost at least a $1 trillion a year for the US. MONEY the US doesn't have give its debt-ridden status.

Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and their oil facilities will be immediately destroyed by Iran and sympathetic Islamists inside those countries to teach America a lesson in economics. We can already see the beginning stages in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain.

American troops will be have to guard Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to prevent these puppets from falling as the Islamists will join in to see the US and Israel (economically) defeated.

Western economies will immediately feel the impact as oil becomes scarce and soars to $150 a barrel.

The US economy will suffer if Chavez in an act of solidarity with Iran cut oil shipments and decide to re-direct output to China.
As oil becomes scarce, the worthless dollar implodes AND The US with its staggering deficits/DEbt implodes.

More US troops will be needed in Venezuela. A draft is now needed but the US has no resources to pay for it.

Then the US will realize, it doesn't manufacture anything anymore. All of the US factories were dismantled and sold to China and so the US can't gear up for a war. Then low and behold all the money for a war MUST be borrowed. From whom? CHINA!

You can't produce tanks using clever derivatives or Greenscam's liquidity or lower interest rates. Nor can you convert a call center to produce RPGs.
So much for what they call the "post industrial services" economy. This is perhaps the reason why other countries like Germany and Japan have maintained their manufacturing base even at expense of economic growth and avoided the US and British myth of a "service" economy where someone is paid to do somebody's else laundry.

So now China will be now have to be a major arms supplier and banker to the war parties, totally immune from the war itself, protected by 2 oceans, boosting its industrial capacity and its capital for AFTER the war.
With the dollar plunging, all of a sudden, the Yuan becomes a safe haven and terrified US citizens move their money to safe haven China.

China might even stage a "Pearl harbor" attack on itself so that it could join the war at the TAILEND and become the major economic player. Dispatching its troops to the Middle East with a "Marshall" plan in hand might also be done.
With the US-Israel axis defeated, the Yuan is now the international reserve currency as a new type of IMF/World Bank is created in the Pacific, headquartered in Beijing and all loans must now be in Yuan and for the sole purpose of making sure that ONLY Chinese products are used in reconstructing the oil fields of the Middle East. Chinese troops will then be in the Middle East for the next 50 years touting their new brand of economics, as the US capitalist model is totally discredited.

Meanwhile, Russia is busy supplying the Arabs with all their weapons and watching as Saudi oil infrastructure is destroyed and with it the US economy and military in general.

With Saudi oil off the market, Russia emerges as the new number oil producer in the world as it will take years to get Saudi oil back on the market.

The world powers suddenly emerge, as France, Russia and Germany form one axis and China and Japan form anthor.



posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 10:18 PM
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Food for thought.

Article from aug. 04 popular mechanics talks about the shortage of tritium, and that without it the U.S. nuke stockpile will be worthless. I guess we have been using tritium from former soviet nukes, that we "helped" to dismantle, but thats gone too. There is a plant that was set to open in sept.04, but they rain into snags with some technical part of the plant. The article says that this is leading the U.S. to re-open cold fussion research which would give way to more h-bombs, but that if the method for cold fussion is discovered/released, it would allow almost anyone to make an H-bomb in their garage. Good read.


d1k

posted on Jul, 11 2004 @ 10:30 PM
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I wouldn't compare the Tiger and the F22. The tiger had thicker armour and a more powerful gun but was slow and not so agile. It was somewhat "taken care of" when the US/Brits fit their tanks with a modification to their main turret giving it a bigger punch.

The F22 is so beyond anything any air force in this world has, and thats just the tid bits that they allowed the public to know/



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 12:09 AM
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an interesting thread. some of my thoughts...

china and taiwan.

i really doubt that this conflict would be the seed that spawns into ww3.
russias involvement in this if any would more likely serve to ensure a war does not occur between the us and china. to me, it is completely illogical for the worlds super powers to be in ww3 for this island state.

n korea vs (aggressors)

to me n korea is something of a rabid dog. it will die on its own or it can seek help from those who are willing. war is unlikely as long as it does not act foolishly like invade s korea or the us doesnt attempt a regime change iraq style. if war breaks out for whatever reason i wonder who will be on n koreas side, would it likely be n korea vs all stars?

israel vs palestine

initially, this conflict being the start of ww3 made a lot of sense to me. if israel annihilates palestine (cant think of a reason why) and some arab nations retaliate against israel and the us forces backing it, a multi-nation war could start. just not sure which mid-east nation would be the ones retaliating or have enough fire power for ww3.

anyway, im just ranting...but it was interesting thinking about ww3.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 01:56 AM
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zcheng, I have read many of your posts through out forums, and was curious to what country you live in. I hope its not the United States because you do alot of US bashing, and its oblivious that you would love nothing more then to see the US crumble.
And if the United States were loosing the war and having there homeland invaded they would by no means sit down and turn on CNN they would grab their guns and ammo and shoot the # out of any enemy invading their land.

BTW the US kicked the # out of Sadams military (Twice). And you consider that they lost (WTF). They beat Iraq in 3 weeks. Just because were still there all that means is were commited to help them get back of their feet.

As for North Koreas Nuclear capabilities, In september the US will have a part of their missile shield up.(enough to stop NK Nukes)-(if they have any).

The United States has Oil Reserves in case you forget maybe not enough to fight in several fronts but enough fo its stealth bombers to hit anywhere in the world. Plus within 15 years i believe Hydrogen will be around if not more used then todays gasoline.

I agree that were exporting to many jobs but make no mistake about just because there buildings in china making microsoft's keyboards and mouses that we don't have any facilities here. We still build all of our classified stuff here. Last time I checked its called Area 51, not Ching Chang Chong 51.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 07:57 AM
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US kicked what in 3 weeks? An army? Army of what, junk artillery, junk tanks, junk AK-47`s. What amazes me that it TOOK 3 weeks even with that kind of weak army as Iraq had (or what was left of it). And the reason(my opinion) why US-army is still there is that US needs a base near Syria, Iran and so on.

About the missile shield, something to read : www.commondreams.org... .
Summary: The multibillion-dollar U.S. ballistic missile shield appears incapable of shooting down any incoming warheads.

And I really don`t think that anything really classified it built on Area 51 since it has become morelike an sightseeing place.



[edit on 12-7-2004 by Samiralfey]



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Murcielago
zcheng, I have read many of your posts through out forums, and was curious to what country you live in. I hope its not the United States because you do alot of US bashing, and its oblivious that you would love nothing more then to see the US crumble.


Thanks for reading my posts. My sole purpose is to convince US people that there should be no War between China and US. If you think I did some US bashing, that is fine with me, but it is for US people to understand the above point. Years ago, I loved to view CNN, MSNBC, FOX, and can stick to it for hours. Later, I understand the control of US people with the mass media with TV. Although I have standard cable, I only see them rarely. There is almost no valuable information shown. For them, there seems to be no more important thing to report than Laci Petterson case. Remember what was shown almost day and night before 9/11?

I sincerely do not want US crumble, because that It is bad not only for US people, but also for Chinese people, and people around the world. The world economy will collapse, and hurt everyone, including China. But if US continue its current foreign policy around the world, especially when hurting the national interest of China like support Taiwan Indepence. Right now, I see the threat of US to become Germany in 1930. Unless US mend its course, especially in foreign policy, I want to see its downfall.

US should be a humble Superpower. Do not think with No 1 millitary, you can beat and bully everyone. US should show respect to the critical interest of other nations. Otherwise, US will crumble, the only question is when. The more aggressive of US around the world, the faster such downfall will come.

Mend the course, when it is not too late. I think it is almost too late now after invasion of Iraq.



And if the United States were loosing the war and having there homeland invaded they would by no means sit down and turn on CNN they would grab their guns and ammo and shoot the # out of any enemy invading their land.


Glad you recognize the need to defend your country. Do you what Iraqi people will feel when occupied by foreign troops and they are killing their love ones almost everyday. Do you know the effect of 2 ton bomb droped in Falluja? I view Iraqi Resistance as Freedom Fighters to defend their country and scarifice for their country. It is the most heroic act and most noble cause of All that I can think of!



BTW the US kicked the # out of Sadams military (Twice). And you consider that they lost (WTF). They beat Iraq in 3 weeks. Just because were still there all that means is were commited to help them get back of their feet.


That is the sole cause why US will crumble sooner or later. US only knows the use of force. But force can not crumble the people of Iraq, unless you kill them all, as US did to native Indian.



As for North Koreas Nuclear capabilities, In september the US will have a part of their missile shield up.(enough to stop NK Nukes)-(if they have any).


Do you know the parameters of the tests? It was told the trajectory of the incoming missile, wonder like NK will tell you that, and it still fail several times. It is simply impossible for bullet to shoot bullet, unless your bullet is at least 10 times the speed of the other. I think, the only possible shield that might be effective is based on Laser. The missile shield is just another idea to tax more on US people, and offer some comfortability to your mind.



The United States has Oil Reserves in case you forget maybe not enough to fight in several fronts but enough fo its stealth bombers to hit anywhere in the world. Plus within 15 years i believe Hydrogen will be around if not more used then todays gasoline.

Yes. Actally I believe some US black project already know the technology for unlimited energy, learned from ET. How the oil man like Bush or Cheney will feel if that comes out?


[edit on 12-7-2004 by zcheng]



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
My personal opinion is that China, India, and the US will eventually be the sole remaining allies against the spread of fanatical Islam and the barbarism it will bring to those that will not see it coming.


what abt russia? they are also fighting in chechenya against islamic terrorists & I guess russia is our allie too.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 11:45 AM
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Good point popeye0314


Article from aug. 04 popular mechanics talks about the shortage of tritium, and that without it the U.S. nuke stockpile will be worthless. I guess we have been using tritium from former soviet nukes, that we "helped" to dismantle, but thats gone too.


A similar situation has occurred over here in the UK.

BNFL closes nuclear power plant

Paul Brown
Wednesday June 30, 2004
The Guardian

Chapelcross, Britain's only remaining military nuclear power station, is being closed because it is uneconomical to repair, British Nuclear Fuels announced yesterday.
The station at Dumfries, which employs 535 people, opened in 1959 and was used to make plutonium for Britain's nuclear weapons programme. It has produced electricity for 45 years.

More recently, with the UK having excess plutonium, the station has been used to produce tritium, which helps Trident missiles work to maximum efficiency. Tritium is a relatively unstable radioactive substance and has to be replaced in weapons every seven years. Since there are no other manufacturing facilities in the UK the government may have to find an alternative source.

Yesterday the Ministry of Defence said there were sufficient stocks for the forseeable future.

The station has four reactors, one of which has been out of action since 2001, when 24 fuel elements were accidentally dropped down a shaft during refuelling.

www.guardian.co.uk...

Oh well, back to secretly selling the US the tritium manufactured at our civilian reactors, like we did in the seventies.



zero lift



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 12:17 PM
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zcheng you never said what country you live in?

I can't believe you support the Iraqi resistance! If they would stop killing out troops and car bombings then we could leave there sand box country. But the more killing there just means the longer we'll have to stay, if they were smart they would relize that and stop blowing up there country. The US by no means wants to occupy that country. Were still there cause were sticking to our word.
If Saddam would of alloud UN Nuclear inspection and stop trying to be sneaky then we wouldn't of gone over there.

As for the Missile Shield, When you start your car up you don't know it will move until ya push tha gas. Same goes for here this is one thing that is so big that if you ran it through normal testing it would be obsolete by the time it's built. Trust me with as much money that has being poured on this i'm sure that they all did their homework. I believe it will work. But as for lasers, there not yet perfected(yet). What the United States wants would be a solid state laser which would have an amazing range. But our technology isn't there yet, thats why the ABL is a chemical laser because we can't produce the power requirment needed for a solid state laser.

Ok now on to (LOL), you believe the US has learned how to create unlimited energy, learned from ET.

First of all if the light in the sky's are ET. I would say that they move by creating a gravity field around them wich would bassically make them invincible and could move as fast as they want. But I don't know what they would use for power, you would need alot of power to sustain that kinda gravity field.



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by d1k
I wouldn't compare the Tiger and the F22. The tiger had thicker armour and a more powerful gun but was slow and not so agile. It was somewhat "taken care of" when the US/Brits fit their tanks with a modification to their main turret giving it a bigger punch.

The F22 is so beyond anything any air force in this world has, and thats just the tid bits that they allowed the public to know/


I beg to differ. Germany/Tiger alone are the perfect example for that matter. The Tiger I may have been "taken care of" but in WW2 there was no counter to the Tiger II (King Tiger) and there is no documented evidence of its defeat on the battlefield. Read the quote below by an Allied soldier:

"One day a Tiger Royal tank got within 150 yards of my tank and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him from ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got five or six hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like Tiger, we would all be home today." - Report by tank commander Sergeant Clyde D. Brunson from 2nd Armored Division, 1945.

Just as the F22 is beyond anything an air force has seen, the Tiger was exactly this and more at that time. The fact that a F/A-22 Raptor maintains a kill ratio of about 10:1 to 15:1 whereas the King Tiger was capable (although not limited to) a 40:0 kill ratio is enough to say that Tiger II is suitable for comparison with the F-22 (although, judging from the kill ratio and incapable counters to the tank I would say Tiger meant more to tank history than the F-22 would mean to aerospace history. Afterall, the Tiger tank was STOLEN by the Allies, particularly the US and Russia, so that they could further tank development. The Tiger is what shaped your M1A1 Abrams and those T-80's).

Back to how the Allies "took care of" the Tiger by fixing up their tanks' main turrets. First and foremost, the Tiger II was capable of a range up to 2.2 miles with its tank turret. Simply, there was no Allied tank or any tank for that matter that was capable of such a range. Yes, they were able to smash a tank shell relatively accurately from that distance as well (although most of the time it would depend on the skill of driver). This would basically render the Tiger II as a sniper tank during those days, but instead the Tiger II was shelled out to the front lines versus waiting in the back because it was a heavy tank (as you may have noted) thus explaining its lack of speed and high armor.

"The powerful 88mm gun was able to knock out Sherman, Cromwell and T-34/85 tanks at a range of 3,500 meters (2.2 miles), far beyond the range of enemy guns."

Keep in mind that the Tiger II had a 150mm-180mm frontal armor. Taking on the Tiger II in tank to tank combat was suicide. Luckily for the US, the US Army did not encourage tank to tank combat. The Brits, however, were not so fortunate as well as the Russians (the Russians encountered many Tiger II's on their way to Berlin).

Just as the Raptor has many unrevealed features, do you think the Allies knew at that time that the Tiger II had an anti-magnetic mine pasting? Do you think they knew that the Tiger II was equipped with a long range cannon AND a binocular thus making it capable of sniping? It's all these little tid-bits that the Allies did not know until the fall of Nazi Germany that made the King Tiger so...secret...as is the Raptor.

All in all, this monstrous tank was a the king of the battlefield (as its name implies, realize that the term "King Tiger" was coined by the Allies and not by the Nazis for they merely named it Tiger II), but the point is that not even with such a super tank was Germany able to win the war.

Source: Achtung Panzer!



posted on Jul, 12 2004 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Murcielago
zcheng you never said what country you live in?

I am from Mainland China. I lived in US for many years.



I can't believe you support the Iraqi resistance! If they would stop killing out troops and car bombings then we could leave there sand box country. But the more killing there just means the longer we'll have to stay, if they were smart they would relize that and stop blowing up there country. The US by no means wants to occupy that country. Were still there cause were sticking to our word.

China was under foreign occupation and humilliation from the West and Japan for decades last century. I feel great sympathy for the Iraqi people. What would you feel and act if US is under foreign occupation?

You answered once, but you seem to forget again.

The US by no means wants to occupy that country.
Do you know there are at least 13 larget permanent base across Iraq is under construction? Do you think US will simply build them and walk away?

If US keep its words, why US still dictate all aspect even after the formal transfer? Just ask Iraqi people whether they think current government is still US puppet.



If Saddam would of alloud UN Nuclear inspection and stop trying to be sneaky then we wouldn't of gone over there.

He said Iraq has No WMD. He said the truth.



I believe it will work. But as for lasers, there not yet perfected(yet). What the United States wants would be a solid state laser which would have an amazing range. But our technology isn't there yet, thats why the ABL is a chemical laser because we can't produce the power requirment needed for a solid state laser.


Even if the Shield works perfectly, is missile the only way to deliver a nuke? what about car, ship, sub, etc?



Ok now on to (LOL), you believe the US has learned how to create unlimited energy, learned from ET.



Do you know the disclose project? Do you know the meeting of National Press Club on May 13, 2001? If you do not , search for it. See and Listen to the video, and tell me what you think?



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