Chinese Nukes Aimed at US Cities

We are talking about our pop culture, that I agree it is garbage. Very little of it has redeaming value. You can see it effect on the fabric of our society weakening institution such as marriage, and allowing perversions to become the norm. When I was growing-up in the late 70s into the 80s, it was unheard of to see gay love on the television or movie screen. Yet, it is thought normal. What is bad has become good, and what is good, the love a man for a woman in the bond of marriage, is some how trite and archaic. Even pornograph is slipping into mainstream. Our country spends billions on this filth. Every country has the right fight these influences, but the question is how.

A greater question is, Do all great powers decline morally before fall. Maybe all system tend toward chaos, and we are speeding toward that chaos ahead of schedule.

Originally posted by Harry12
When I was growing-up in the late 70s into the 80s, it was unheard of to see gay love on the television or movie screen. Yet, it is thought normal.

Well lets see.. Whats defined "normal"? Gay people are in the minority, yes, but so are left handers. Both are estimated to make up 10% of the population.
Though I wouldn't promote either way, I certainly wouldn't prosecute either way. Where is the fairness in that (equality being widely preached in modern society)?
Left handers used to be prosecuted (burnt at the stake for crying out loud) in certain societies, and I am sure homosexuality were also looked down upon in certain society. Well, fast forward today, and left handers are, as far as I know, considered no different than others... Even though they still make a small percentage of the population.
Religious beliefs aside (and not all of them even agree on this matter), I would treat homosexuals as a "minority", instead of something completely different. So long as its concential.

Originally posted by AxBattler

I could be wrong but I think it's okay to be off topic here at ATS since everyone seems to be getting away with it.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by Blackout
Yes but if the US just let's China stomp all over Taiwan then it'll lose its reputation as some dorky "savior" or whatever it is that Bush thinks he is.

How much credibility current US administration still has? Nil for most countries.

In your signature, you claim that you don't want war. Then why are you instigating it? Taiwan is not a part of China. The only way that Taiwan and China could become one nation again is to follow the example of the former East and West Germanies. The Communist government must be eradicated, not only in China, but North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba and any other Communist governments that exist. The whole concept of Marxism/Leninism must be purged from the hearts and minds of those who harbor it, one way or another. It doesn't matter to me. Then peace and prosperity will start to flourish, for the whole world. Yes, it's true that the United States is not perfect in all areas. But we're and damned sight way better off and more perfect than the rest of the world. That's including your country, Zcheng.
Over

Originally posted by Intelearthling

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by Blackout
Yes but if the US just let's China stomp all over Taiwan then it'll lose its reputation as some dorky "savior" or whatever it is that Bush thinks he is.

How much credibility current US administration still has? Nil for most countries.

In your signature, you claim that you don't want war. Then why are you instigating it? Taiwan is not a part of China. The only way that Taiwan and China could become one nation again is to follow the example of the former East and West Germanies. The Communist government must be eradicated, not only in China, but North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba and any other Communist governments that exist. The whole concept of Marxism/Leninism must be purged from the hearts and minds of those who harbor it, one way or another. It doesn't matter to me. Then peace and prosperity will start to flourish, for the whole world. Yes, it's true that the United States is not perfect in all areas. But we're and damned sight way better off and more perfect than the rest of the world. That's including your country, Zcheng.
Over

Bull#. It's you who is instigating. If you want to defend Taiwan against China, then be prepared to fight China. The Chinese will not let Taiwan go. ever.

Taiwan is where the losers of the Chinese Civil War retreated to. Just imagine if the Confederates won and the Union now lived entirely on Nova Scotia. Control of the island helps US geopolicy, so we back them. Eventually the two countries will probably unify.

Originally posted by Intelearthling
In your signature, you claim that you don't want war. Then why are you instigating it? Taiwan is not a part of China. The only way that Taiwan and China could become one nation again is to follow the example of the former East and West Germanies. The Communist government must be eradicated, not only in China, but North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba and any other Communist governments that exist. The whole concept of Marxism/Leninism must be purged from the hearts and minds of those who harbor it, one way or another. It doesn't matter to me. Then peace and prosperity will start to flourish, for the whole world. Yes, it's true that the United States is not perfect in all areas. But we're and damned sight way better off and more perfect than the rest of the world. That's including your country, Zcheng.
Over

My only purpose is to inform US friends here that US intervention in Taiwan strait will bring destruction to Both China and US. In this way, sane US people will be more cautious in supporting the intervention and thus avoiding devastating war between US and China. Iraq War could not be avoided because Iraq could not pose credible deterence to US.

I do not want war between Chinese in Mainland and Chinese in Taiwan. It will be the greatest tragedy for Chinese people. Without US support, No Taiwan regime dare to seek Independence from China, and thus avoiding war in Taiwan Strait.

I tell you the consequence of war, so you will avoid intervention in Taiwan strait, thus avoiding war between US and China.

lol... war between the China and the US is a long, long way off. First will come trade embargoes and the screeching halt of commerce. You'll be able to hear this one from a long way back. Each side has considerable deterrence.

Originally posted by taibunsuu
lol... war between the China and the US is a long, long way off. First will come trade embargoes and the screeching halt of commerce. You'll be able to hear this one from a long way back. Each side has considerable deterrence.

Yes. But I can see how US intervention in Taiwan Strait can lead to such all-out war between US and China. There is no way for China to back away from Taiwan Independence. In case, Taiwan is going Independent, war is inevitable.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by taibunsuu
lol... war between the China and the US is a long, long way off. First will come trade embargoes and the screeching halt of commerce. You'll be able to hear this one from a long way back. Each side has considerable deterrence.

Yes. But I can see how US intervention in Taiwan Strait can lead to such all-out war between US and China. There is no way for China to back away from Taiwan Independence. In case, Taiwan is going Independent, war is inevitable.

China's not about to invade Taiwan. It would take a coup before the military could even attempt it. The country's leaders would not allow it because the economy would implode overnight. Trade would cease to exist and Chinese holdings in most of the world would be frozen and resold under 'new management.' The economy of the new Taiwan would be inert. If China wants to take a plunge back to the first year of their revolution, I highly suggest they invade Taiwan. Chinese rumblings about acquiring Taiwan are mostly done for nationalistic propaganda and to see if the West is ready to allow them to do it.

China's best bet for acquiring Taiwan is not through raw military force, but the current path of becoming more important to the West than Taiwan, economically and culturally. You guys built the freaking Great Wall, I think you can wait 50 years to acquire Taiwan without firing a shot, and that's exactly what your leaders are betting on.

Originally posted by taibunsuu
China's best bet for acquiring Taiwan is not through raw military force, but the current path of becoming more important to the West than Taiwan, economically and culturally. You guys built the freaking Great Wall, I think you can wait 50 years to acquire Taiwan without firing a shot, and that's exactly what your leaders are betting on.

You are right to some extent. But when Taiwan is seeking Independence, all bets are off. Force becomes the only option.

Yeah, but Taiwan is essentially autonomous in all but name. The One China policy that the United States follows is not going to change in the near future. The Taiwanese president has said that there 'are clearly two countries between the straits' but he was only re-elected by a thin margin and there are many people in Taiwan who want to keep the status quo. It's very difficult to see what Taiwan could possibly gain from declaring itself independent but the amount they could lose is clear. The politicians in Taiwan probably bring up independence every once in awhile to stir up followers but little more beyond that.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by taibunsuu
China's best bet for acquiring Taiwan is not through raw military force, but the current path of becoming more important to the West than Taiwan, economically and culturally. You guys built the freaking Great Wall, I think you can wait 50 years to acquire Taiwan without firing a shot, and that's exactly what your leaders are betting on.

You are right to some extent. But when Taiwan is seeking Independence, all bets are off. Force becomes the only option.

Dude, what part of "THEY WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH CHINA" do you guys not get? Do you guys want to be forcing a people who hate you to live under your rule?

Ohhh well, with you Zcheng, it is not worth debating. Yur Comy government has fed you enough garbage that you will never understand that these people don't like you, and all they want is their tiny little island. China has one of the worlds largest plots of land - why can't they just be happy with that, and then if Taiwan wants to join them, so much the better.

Regardless, if China comes with force, the US will crush you with greater force. It's as simple as that. Nuclear or conventional - it doesn't matter. The US has a much better military. We have battle hardened veterans who are better trained and better equiped. You have your untested obsolete PLA. We'll see who wins if it comes to that, all I'm gunna say is I am glad I will be in the US and not China if this happens.

Spot on, American Mad Man.

Seems to me there's only one country being aggressive and war-mongering in this China/Taiwan/US debate...... and er, guess what? it's not Taiwan or the US.

How about resolving the Taiwan issue with a good old democratic vote, a public referendum for all Taiwanese people. Like most of the civilized world tries to do these days.

If they vote No, then that's it, all over. Probably should schedule another public vote every 10 years just to see if the Taiwanese people have changed their views, but until then just leave them alone.

Simple eh? I think it's called democracy.

Originally posted by Moley
Spot on, American Mad Man.

Seems to me there's only one country being aggressive and war-mongering in this China/Taiwan/US debate...... and er, guess what? it's not Taiwan or the US.

How about resolving the Taiwan issue with a good old democratic vote, a public referendum for all Taiwanese people. Like most of the civilized world tries to do these days.

If they vote No, then that's it, all over. Probably should schedule another public vote every 10 years just to see if the Taiwanese people have changed their views, but until then just leave them alone.

Simple eh? I think it's called democracy.

They do vote. Their last vote was in 2004. Many Taiwanese want to stay with the status quo. The Taiwan president has never used explicit language about declaring Taiwan its own country fully seperate from China. The US has no embassy in Taiwan but something called "The American Institute." Eventually they will become one country after many more years, at least a few generations. Nations that do business with Taiwan don't want to recognize the country because they would not be doing business with the PRC. The PRC is bigger economically.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Regardless, if China comes with force, the US will crush you with greater force. It's as simple as that. Nuclear or conventional - it doesn't matter. The US has a much better military. We have battle hardened veterans who are better trained and better equiped. You have your untested obsolete PLA. We'll see who wins if it comes to that, all I'm gunna say is I am glad I will be in the US and not China if this happens.

Just because there are so many arrogant and ignorant US people like you, I feel the danger of war between US and China.

For China, from now to November, it is a perfect time to solve Taiwan issue once and for all.

not all americans are ignorant. americanmadman, has a point about us being more technologically advanced but i must say that China is not that far behind, the PLA is not ancient, but yet not powerful enough to crush the usa, but i mite add that the only "real advantage" they have over us is numerical supremecy, but Taiwon is not gunna lead to a war between the usa and china. the most that wil happen is mayb some us troops will defend taiwons mainland, but i highly doubt they will escalate it into a invasion into china, like in the korean war, macarthur wanted to nuke china, and escalate the war, well it didint happen, and it wont happen now, there would be no reason to since China poses no threat to the continental usa, UNLESS they threaten to use nukes, which they wouldnt

Originally posted by imAMERICAN
not all americans are ignorant. americanmadman, has a point about us being more technologically advanced but i must say that China is not that far behind, the PLA is not ancient, but yet not powerful enough to crush the usa, but i mite add that the only "real advantage" they have over us is numerical supremecy, but Taiwon is not gunna lead to a war between the usa and china. the most that wil happen is mayb some us troops will defend taiwons mainland, but i highly doubt they will escalate it into a invasion into china, like in the korean war, macarthur wanted to nuke china, and escalate the war, well it didint happen, and it wont happen now, there would be no reason to since China poses no threat to the continental usa, UNLESS they threaten to use nukes, which they wouldnt

China forces are not comparable to that of US. But China can wipe out those US intervention forces and destroy any base that assist in the attack like Okinawa. Of course, China will also suffer huge loss.

What will US do then, with conventional forces spread thin, and will not overwhelm Chinese forces near coast of China? With conventional weapon not able to win, will US resort to Nukes, or accept the defeat?

actaully since china has more troops, it makes them more of a target, and i think we would resort to a draft, and probably moving troops from germany and west euro that we dont need there and use heavy conventional bombing of chinas forces, MOAB's and cruise missiles, would flush out the chinese troops near our bases and in taiwon, becuase they wouldnt have AA defenses, and consider bombing chinas mainland with the missiles-theres only so many that AA guns can take down, but hitting the mainland china would be last resort id bet

Originally posted by imAMERICAN
actaully since china has more troops, it makes them more of a target, and i think we would resort to a draft, and probably moving troops from germany and west euro that we dont need there and use heavy conventional bombing of chinas forces, MOAB's and cruise missiles, would flush out the chinese troops near our bases and in taiwon, becuase they wouldnt have AA defenses, and consider bombing chinas mainland with the missiles-theres only so many that AA guns can take down, but hitting the mainland china would be last resort id bet

Where to launch these missiles, if the carriers can be destroyed?