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The Mysterious Phoenix Bird in Judaism and Christianity

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posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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Who here can tell me information about the Phoenix bird? A bird steeped either symbolism OR in a realm of reality can only be decided on you (the reader). I am here to throw out information about what we know, or believe to be the phoenix bird in Judo-christian religion.

Where to start on this one? Not many know who or what is the phoenix bird, but where did the idea start? Let us begin with the little evidance that we have, Clement



Clement Ch XII: Let us consider the wonderful type of the resurrection which is seen in the eastern countries; that is to say in Arabia.
There is a certain bird called a Phoenix; of this there is never but one at a time: and that lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near, that it must die, it makes itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices into which when its time is fulfilled it enters and dies. But its flesh putrifying breeds a certain worm, which being nourished with the juices of the dead bird brings forth feathers; and when it is grown to a perfect state, it takes up the nest in which the bones of its parents lie, and carries it from Arabia into egypt, to a city called heliopolis. and flying in open day in the sight of all men, lays it upon the alter of the sun, and so returns from whence it came.
The priests then search into the records of the time; and find that it returned precisely the end of five hundred years and shal! we think it to be any very great and strange thing for the Lord of all to raise up those that religiously serve him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird he shows us the greatness of his power to fulfill his promise.


Clement seems to believe in a Phoenix bird SO MUCH, that he uses the analogy of a bird to fortify his opinion about Christians, Very amazing IMO.

NOW, to the JEWISH dig, Which is a little bit more abstract and probably a translating error to many.such as myself

Here is a link, to get linked up with knowledge
www.studiolum.com...




Indeed, if we look for Job, verse 29.18 in the King James Bible, we read: “Then I said, 'I shall die in my nest, And multiply my days as the sand.'” Checking the same verse in a different translation of the Bible, the Jewish Publication Society’s edition from 1917, we find following wording: “Then I said: 'I shall die with my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the phoenix.'”

In an attempt to solve this riddle, we turn first to the original Hebrew text of the Bible. Here we find the word chol, the general meaning of which is indeed ‘sand’. This interpretation is supported by other biblical verses where the word occurs, like in the famous promise of God to Abraham, saying: “I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore” (Gen 22:17). So as a starting point, ‘sand’ sounds like a very appropriate interpretation of our verse in question, too.

One of the most popular and influential of these from the eleventh century was that of the French Jewish scholar and exegete Rabbi Shelomo Yitzhaki, or Rashi, which was widely read not only by Jews, but also by Christian Hebraists and Bible commentators. Rashi comments on the word in our verse as follows: “It is a bird whose name is chol, and death has no power on it, because it did not taste the fruit from the tree of knowledge. At the end of thousand years it renews itself, and returns to his youth.”

Rashi had of course his own sources: the early rabbinical commentaries of the Bible, the Midrashim, on which he relied heavily in his own commentaries. In one of those Midrashim, in Bere# Rabbah (19:5) we find the following commentary to Genesis 3:6: “[Eve] gave the cattle, beasts, and birds to eat of it [i.e. the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge]. All obeyed her and ate thereof, except a certain bird named chol, as it is written, “Then I said: I shall die with my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the chol [i.e. ‘phoenix’]” (Job 29:18).

In the Babylonian Talmud, in the tractate Sanhedrin (108b) we hear a phantastic eyewitness account of the days of the Flood, from the mouth of not less an authority then Shem, Noah’s oldest son. Shem relates with great details the matters of feeding the different kind of animals in the ark. At one point he tells about the phoenix: “As for the phoenix, my father discovered it lying in the hold of the ark. "Dost thou require no food?" he asked it. "I saw that thou wast busy," it replied, "so I said to myself, I will give thee no trouble." "May it be (God's) will that thou shouldst not perish," he exclaimed; as it is written, ‘Then I said, I shall die in the nest, but I shall multiply my days as the chol [phoenix].’ ”


This is a breakthrough, not just in translation, but in the idea that many "NEW" information may not ever be uncovered from the past. Obviously we do not have true history of the ancients as we were taught at school or even on a scholar level. People just do not know. This may be a breakthrough for so many if they just accept that major information such as the Phoenix was probably lost in history. I assure, their was more written about it.
Which comes to my opinion.

The bible has been created, mixed, matched, disassembled, reasembled, not by Christians, but by the Jewish establishment. I am sure the Tanakh was very different four thousand years ago, had many more books and was only privately owned by those chosen to have the scrolls. Around 1,000 bc Approx, the bible went into a new stage, the version we know. Although this should not put anyone off from it. Much of the orginal "idea" is still their. Although, I would not doubt it if someone holds the complete original.
Any insightful information that I do not know of would be appreciated immensely


See if you can chase the rabbit in the hole, learn more, pm me

MOD: I would understand if this were to go in another board, I was thinking perhaps ancient civilization. No one goes into religion/theo, and I will get more attention to this matter if it was directly on CIR board
edit on 19-1-2011 by Jordan River because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-1-2011 by Jordan River because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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Um.

Its a symbol.

The phoneix is a symbol of the soul.

It has to be broken, burnt up, in order to be born again. That is the nature of spiritual growth, which is why you find this phoneix on the front cover of the Zohar.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with an actual bird.

Its simply a SYMBOL, which would probably manifest in a dream symbolizing such an idea as demolition of the bird; or ones previous state of consciousness, to be born anew.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
Um.

Its a symbol.

The phoneix is a symbol of the soul.

It has to be broken, burnt up, in order to be born again. That is the nature of spiritual growth, which is why you find this phoneix on the front cover of the Zohar.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with an actual bird.

Its simply a SYMBOL, which would probably manifest in a dream symbolizing such an idea as demolition of the bird; or ones previous state of consciousness, to be born anew.


Real or not, your beliefs are a stated opinion. Stated opinions, are opinions, scholarly opinions are... opinions and so on. I like to see what readers think. Thank you so much for the input



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:14 PM
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the bible we now know was completed in 1611 just search the king james bible. the christians corrupted it just like all religions to suit their current needs all holy books contain myths with probably and ounce of honesty left. a great weapon when you mention your enemies in it, so no im afraid differing from the original "maybe" its just stories



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:15 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 


Ok. Believe what you want.

Any intellectual understands that a phoenix is a symbol. Any student of any mysticism; kabbalah, or masonry, or simply anyone educated, understands that its a symbol.

just so you know, our soul speaks to us through symbol. Our dreams are this way, as depth psychology has shown. So its completely reasonable to accept not as an opinion, but as a verifiable fact.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:18 PM
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I think remember something about the Phoenix in this vid about secret societies ...peace amazingdiscoveries.tv...

ps. the speaker has a big collection of the occult and the mystery religions



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by nonetruegod
the bible we now know was completed in 1611 just search the king james bible. the christians corrupted it just like all religions to suit their current needs all holy books contain myths with probably and ounce of honesty left. a great weapon when you mention your enemies in it, so no im afraid differing from the original "maybe" its just stories


Christianity came from Judaism. So I am suppose to believe the Judaism was created exactly in the 9th century? I am sure it was created 1,000 years before that. It is until someone said "hey we gotta write our oral traditions down from the original books" Again, adding and subtracting things their religion was or was not going to address. You use the word corruption, I rather use the word conspiracy



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Jordan River
 


Ok. Believe what you want.

Any intellectual understands that a phoenix is a symbol. Any student of any mysticism; kabbalah, or masonry, or simply anyone educated, understands that its a symbol.

just so you know, our soul speaks to us through symbol. Our dreams are this way, as depth psychology has shown. So its completely reasonable to accept not as an opinion, but as a verifiable fact.



Well, how about you stop complaining about minor differences that obviously you may or may not have with me. Why do you care about my beliefs about it? I was trying to give credit to individuals that may believe in a P. Bird. Theirs a cult in everything. If you really are interested in my spiritual growth than I can say that I believe in both, a real and a spiritual. But the real is probably long dead. I rather this thread not be about beliefs. But you are aiming it towards there. I was giving validation to anyones opinion.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


its not really a verifiable fact now is it i agree it is a symbol but probably more related to venus changing from evening star to morning star as the origin eg. NEW BIRTH when now we know its not really.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 


There are Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Egyptian, and Native American counterparts of the Phoenix.

The ancient Egyptians linked the myth of the phoenix with the longings for immortality that were so strong in their civilization, and from there its symbolism spread around the Mediterranean world of late antiquity. The Egyptians may have seen this large bird only as an extremely rare visitor or possibly heard tales of it from travelers who had trading expeditions to the Arabian Seas.

It has a 500 to 1000 year life-cycle, near the end of which it builds itself a nest of twigs that then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again.
The new phoenix embalms the ashes of its old self in an egg made of myrrh and deposits it in the Egyptian city of Heliopolis.
edit on 19-1-2011 by _SilentAssassin_ because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-1-2011 by _SilentAssassin_ because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 07:56 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 


Yeah the Phoenix symbolizes that which Jesus symbolizes - the archetype of rebirth. But the thing about symbols, is they can temporarily manifest in the real world and become living symbols. Living myths. Like UFOs are. People think UFOs are literally ET but they aren't. They too are symbolic manifestations of an archetype. This whole symbolic/literal dichotomy is a somewhat false one.


edit on 19-1-2011 by Student X because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 

I have a personal interest in following this discussion...
...and am posting this comment so that I can keep track of your thread through myATS.

Q: Have you examined the link between the Phoenix, the Bennu and the Grey Heron?



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by Student X
reply to post by Jordan River
 


Yeah the Phoenix symbolizes that which Jesus symbolizes - the archetype of rebirth. But the thing about symbols, is they can temporarily manifest in the real world and become living symbols. Living myths. Like UFOs are. People think UFOs are literally ET but they aren't. They too are symbolic manifestations of an archetype. This whole symbolic/literal dichotomy is a somewhat false one.


edit on 19-1-2011 by Student X because: (no reason given)


You remind me Joseph conrad rhetoric




Q: Have you examined the link between the Phoenix, the Bennu and the Grey Heron?



I have no knowledge of this.
edit on 19-1-2011 by Jordan River because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by Jordan RiverYou remind me Joseph conrad rhetoric


I don't know who that is.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by Student X

Originally posted by Jordan RiverYou remind me Joseph conrad rhetoric


I don't know who that is.


I believe you would love him. He is all about myths and using words such as archtype, and the collective unconcious. Although, overall he dismantles myths no matter what faith you believe in, he does it in a way that is pleasing. Although, I do not believe him. wilki him. pick up his books. start with "the world of myths" by Leeming. Much ados to Joseph conrad



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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The thread title limits discussion of the Phoenix bird to Abrahamic religions but could other religions like zen Buddhism have an analogue to the phoenix bird? Meditating over koans like what is the sound of one hand clapping might at least help us locate where it builds its nest?



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 


I wasn't going to reply because you asked for info and then attacked those that tried to help. Consider that for a moment.

Christianity, Judaism, etc; all present analogous tales that relate to universal truths. This is why the bible is often pushed as the only book necessary. It details the 12 ancient sciences.

Anyways. Forget religion because people get wrapped around the axle. In alchemy the same bird is used to describe a process. In the lab, separation forces the purity or essence to rise to the neck of a flask and the base matter settles to the bottom. As this process repeats itself the essence purifies. The phoenix exemplifies this. Bird = Spirit

In Alchemy the major steps are:

Calcination
Dissolution
Separation (Phoenix)
Conjunction
Fermentation
Distillation
Coagulation

Birds in Alchemy



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by Troubleshooter
Q: Have you examined the link between the Phoenix, the Bennu and the Grey Heron?


Originally posted by Jordon River

I have no knowledge of this.

The Bennu was the Egyptian Phoenix depicted as a Grey Heron.

I have Grey Heron's appear on occassions before potentially life changing events...
...that I have come to interpret as 'everything will turn to chaos but will turn out well'...
...and it always does...
...I just wondered if this happens to anyone else?



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by Bordon81
The thread title limits discussion of the Phoenix bird to Abrahamic religions but could other religions like zen Buddhism have an analogue to the phoenix bird? Meditating over koans like what is the sound of one hand clapping might at least help us locate where it builds its nest?


The symbology of the Phoenix does indeed encompass more than the traditions of the Abrahamic religions. The concept of "from death, life", be it in a karmaic, evolutionary, or messianical sense is a persistent theme throughout established religions.



posted on Jan, 19 2011 @ 10:47 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 



This is just an idea, but I think the Phoenix bird could represent the Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit, which descended on Jesus at his baptism, was described as being like a dove/bird. And then on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit is described as appearing like tongues of fire.

Combine that fiery appearance, with a bird, and you get the Phoenix.

- JC

edit on 19-1-2011 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



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