U.S. military kills innocent farmers!

Originally posted by AlienProbed
They seem to derive so much joy from death and destruction.

Whats wrong with a quick 'sorry but this is war (moment of silence)' reaction?

Fair enough but....

What do you think the guy planting the IEDs reaction would have been when it blew up [Most likely a civilian vehicle or a school Bus] or one of our vehicles?

Think he would have said a prayer or had a moment of silence?

reply to post by SLAYER69


So there responses are justified because the enemy would not hesitate to act in a similar manor?
I whole-heatedly disagree with this justification.

reply to post by AlienProbed


It's not a justification it was a question.
You haven't answered it yet?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Please review Association fallacy - Wikipedia

I did not answer your specific questions because they are not relevant to the reactions of the military personal.

reply to post by AlienProbed


Figured as much.

Although the title is correct OP, you have sourced insufficient material and the thread should probably be closed. However, you could include the following.

www.salon.com.../news/feature/2010/05/29/as_afghanistan_11

www.rawstory.com...

www.dailykos.com...

I realize this thread is about the casual attitude with which we regard war crimes, but the thread title should honestly reflect content.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Does the fact that the farmers planting is interrupted mean there won't be 72 virgins waiting for him?

edit on 19-1-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

I dont think it says that anywhere in the koran... it is spin..

kx

reply to post by purplemer


I know...

Isn't it a shame?

They and many other Muslims do it by being brainwashed on a fallacy.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yes it is a shame...

kx

I noticed that quite a few people are claiming that this was a IED being planted rather than some roses. To me I would say that they were planting a IED, but its impossible to say for definite without the military report into the killings, which might show that they were planting IED’s or not.

But let’s assume for a moment that this is IED, it raises the question is it justifiable to kill a person who is only planting an explosive IED and is not armed?

I think this is very grey, but if he was planting an IED, would it not have been more beneficial to have let him plant it, then arrest him, defuse the IED and then interrogate him to gain intelligence. Then it also does planting an explosive count as being an imminent threat

These are the questions that we should be asking, not squabbling over whether it was a IED or a bed of roses.

Detain him, ship him off to where? Prisons in Afghanistan and Iraq are almost certain death, or universities to expand your trade in explosives. Ship them to Guantanamo? Well, that would simply be terrible and unethical!

Low-level combatants, probably bribed, and very likely to be ill-informed of the loose network who directs them. Insurgents, like those above, are a dime a dozen amongst their ranks.

reply to post by kevinunknown
Good observation.

It becomes obvious that nobody is really trying to fix anything from the way it was dealt with,if it was even an IED they were fiddling around with.

There were 2 people, don't you think a missle is just a weeee bit over kill?

Side note: the "freedom fries" comment gets

You're right. We should fight on even terms. Junk AK's with mismatched ammo for everybody!

Originally posted by AlienProbed
What sickens me the most is the reactions from the military persons involved in the operation and in similar operational videos found online.

They seem to derive so much joy from death and destruction.

Whats wrong with a quick 'sorry but this is war (moment of silence)' reaction?

Being a 24 year veteran myself perhaps I can help here.

Some of our "boys" and they are that 18-21 do not have the maturity to cope with the severity of taking life so like some people who giggle when nervous (some even in totally inappropriate settings at funerals say or when being reprimanded) some use this group celebration mentality as a coping mechanism for something they are not mature enough to come to grips with at the time.

Also, it is a victory so it is something to be proud of - they have succeeded in preventing future deaths of our own soldiers which is something to celebrate about.

Watch the movie Crimson Tide for an accurate portrayal of this phenomenon - the younger crew members celebrate at the victory of the enemy sub very vociferously while the senior officers and NCOs realize they just killed 100-200 men much like themselves or their own men out of necessity and have a different set of reactions altogether. .

It’s a maturity thing - trust me when they are alone in their bunks at night they are not so manly and later when they get alone and talking to the Chaplains or at home their compartmentalization o the horrors of war that is albeit necessary to remain sharp down range takes many different forms from basic guilt to nightmares to full blown PTSD.

Hope that helps.

reply to post by Golf66


Yes, that has helped considerably in my understanding.

My suggestion for the military might be to raise the minimum age for entry to 30; but we all know that's not going to happen. If anything, they probably want to lower the minimum age so they can recruit more.

A concern I have with the joyous/immature responses is perhaps a further escalation of violence when they see the callousness with which there fellow brethren are being treated.
How can we expect a lasting peace to come about when we do not embody the principles we are fighting for.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.


reply to post by kevinunknown

would it not have been more beneficial to have let him plant it, then arrest him, defuse the IED and then interrogate him to gain intelligence.

I agree.

When you are in a combat zone, every moment you realize that you're at risk. You really don't get any good rest, even at night. Rather a series of light, disturbed naps. No real rest, no real relaxation, and zero comfort. It wears you down, and your emotional status pretty much resides in the red zone.

So much training, so much preparation, so much information, so much practice goes into your life that you come to the point that you want - want - to engage. Whatever the form, the pressure builds and builds and you want something to happen.

When you finally engage, the body starts dumping adrenalin and hundreds of chemicals into the bloodstream to enable the fight. It's a high. A high like you've never felt. A chemical induced high.

Each soldier wants to live. Badly wants to live, and the only way he's going to live is to kill those who are bent on his destruction.

War is a series of hundreds and thousands of isolated one-on-one mortal struggles, regardless of the circumstances.

So when you are able to make a kill, there is an elation. You are elated and thrilled that this SOB, or these SOB's fell to your effort, that these SOB's won't be back later to take another turn at you.

In war, in battle, in mortal struggle, there's no second place.

You win, or you lose. All.

We've all been so tired and exhausted that suddenly everything becomes funny.

Well, it happens in combat too, and the thrill of victory, be it from stoving in an enemy's head with a piece of pipe, or popping some clowns planting explosives, is immense.

Immense satisfaction.

Satisfaction because you did your job. Successfully.

And the proof of your success is right there.

And over there. And some over there.

It does bring a smile to your tired, dirty face.

Because this is what you do.

reply to post by FarArcher


Well said. The laughing, screaching and shouting is the adrenaline kicking in. I remember that I could not stop shaking. It was such a strange feeling, it did not feel like fear, although I was scared out of my wits during my first engagement (never really got better), but after...............damn I could not stop my body from shaking.

Each person deals with the stress in thier own way. Some cry, some vomit, some are withdrawn and outhers scream and swear. It is not gung ho, it is the rush, the flight of fight syndrome kicking in big time.
And, when it subsides, you feel empty and almost like a shadow, a hollow man.

Hard to put into words, sorry.

reply to post by deltaboy


Delta-boys intelligence often varies between stupid sarcasm or plain blind patriotism.

Do you get sick of dribbling crap?

You come on, post something, then never return to answer the people who question you or your motives.

You make pretty bold accusations and statements then vanish..

Im not sure if your a coward and cant face people who disagree with you

Or if your paid to post this tripe.

Either way, you do nothing but further inflame the stereotype the world has for Americans.

reply to post by kevinunknown


Agreed, that's a good point.

Thing is there could be watchers, and it could be remote detonated.

but a missile? send a team round the side to get them as they walk away, then either send in bomb disposal or fire some 50cal at it.