What freedoms are you talking about???

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
I just finished watching a documentary called "Kimjongillia". It was about North Korea. Those who escaped North Korea with their lives intact spoke about the life they lived in North Korea. My family escaped a similar hell in 1988, though their stories are 10 times worse. What freedom would they talk about?

Let's get something straight. There is no such thing on this earth as "freedom" (as hypothesized by many). The word freedom to us is like the word "infinity" or "perfection". We have these words and we have the idea of what they are supposed to represent, but they are unattainable by us. Even if you free yourself from the control of others, of debt and responsibilities, you are still inside a decaying human body which holds you slave to it's needs. You still need to eat, drink, go to the bathroom and continue maintenance on your body if you want to be free of pain and misery. Forget trying to achieve the ultimate freedom in a world where things corrode. It won't happen in our lifetimes, if ever. Everyone and everything on this planet will have a different definition of freedom.

What is freedom to the North Koreans? It is to be able to eat three meals a day, to feel no fear of being shot dead for lining their floors with newspaper which contains Kim Jong Il's face? Maybe it's freedom to travel outside the borders of North Korea without fearing for their lives. Maybe it's being able to take a break from work, or not have to work in a gulag, or not watch their children starve to death because there isn't enough food to go around.
What's freedom to me? Freedom is what I'm experiencing right now as I type this message. Nobody is coming to arrest me for expressing my opinions. I guess you'd have to live under a totalitarian regime, cut off from the rest of the world to be able to appreciate the "freedom" that this country allows us to enjoy.

Excellent post! I'm glad to see someone understands what freedom is, as in the phrase "freedom and justice for all."

There's a lot of this nonsense on ATS and elsewhere to the effect of...

Poo, I have to pay back money I borrow?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom!
Poo, I have to follow laws in this Republic?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom!
Poo, my employer will fire me if I don't go in to work (as I agreed to do upon hiring)?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom!

People who confuse surviving in reality with slavery need to hear about North Korea to have a little more perspective on freedom.

To the thread post .. My thoughts exactly IMO I would say we are not really much better than off ancient Egypt just with better human rights. If you don't work you can't go squat anywhere, the local enforcement will throw you out. You can't hunt for food with out a permit that is called poaching. And if you do work and refuse to pay taxes that is a federal offense well here in Canada it is we call it called tax evasion. If you get hurt and can't work anymore or lose your job you are free to live on the street with your family. If you have a car is it not law that it must be insured.

It is freedom for some people to be able afford medical care and the cost as to the poor or working class get refused to some people. You are free to have less and less social programs and less access to money. We are free to work till the day we die , I am sure the majority of the population will never be able to afford to retire.

Freedom like many words we use have been so twisted and warped from the actual meaning. It actually amazes me that people so oblivious even with the definition of the word plainly in their face to read. Can't even see they we are all just freedom slaves

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Hi all,

Sometimes there are threads and posts here concerning the word "freedom" that make me wonder.

Such as this thread (that the OP has mentioned, and the subsequent posts defending that notion).That kind of stuff makes me think. Are the people who defend the notion that in their countries they are free, really free??? Are people such as U.S. citizens or European citizens really free?? Is that freedom brought to them by their government? (politicians, armed forces, judicial system etc...?) By the constitution?

First lets look at the definition of freedom:

www.merriam-webster.com...

Definition of FREEDOM
1
: the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independence c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous d : ease, facility e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use
2
a : a political right b : franchise, privilege
See freedom defined for English-language learners »

Let's look at the first one:

the quality or state of being free

Definition of free:

Definition of FREE
1
a : having the legal and political rights of a citizen b : enjoying civil and political liberty c : enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination d : enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another

Do we have the legal and political rights of a citizen? Do we enjoy civil and political liberty? Do we have freedom from outside domination? (In other words: are we free do do as we please with our own lives without having stuff imposed by us by outside forces? (jobs, governments, taxes, bank(loans), other debts, rules and regulations etc..)

Go take a look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself this question.

I will be the first to admit that I am not free:
I have a job (I can't do what I want to do when I'm on the job, and if I quit, almost all of my monthly income is gone.

I have to pay income taxes, for which I can face a prison sentence if I leave them unpaid (which ultimately go to paying rent for loans the government has previously made).

I have loans to pay back.

I have a credit card.

I am subject to the laws of the country I live in (I can commit a crime without there being a victim involved, such as smoking marijuana [which I don't do, but just an example])

I can't just decide today that I'm going to leave my country and visit others for an indefinite time without consequence, and without having to request my employers to do so.

I am not free, are you???

Here's a link that should put you to really think about whether you experience freedom or not.

What if freedom is a myth?

What if freedom is a myth?

I think of the monkey born in the zoo. The poor creature has never known freedom. It is fed every day, and its offspring are sold to other zoos. The poor beast is docile in its cage and does tricks for the zookeeper.

What if we have never known freedom and have been taught to embrace our bondage, to fight for it, even to worship it. What if we accept our cage as freedom?

And here are some links from individuals who are experiencing what I consider to be true freedom. They spend their lives in different countries and move around as they please. They have more than enough passive income that they don’t have to work for the rest of their lives, but they’re yet active in the business world, especially in what we call the “third world”. They have protected their assets in such a way that it’s very difficult for western world governments to find for taxation, confiscation and other such purposes.


www.sovereignman.com...

sovereignlife.com...

sovereignsociety.com...

www.wisebread.com...

whiskeyandgunpowder.com...

How To Ditch Your 9-to-5 Job Once and For All

Last, but not least: here is a video and some articles that make it clear to me that there is no freedom in the western world like we pretend it to be.

The video has already been posted on ATS, but it doesn’t hurt to do so again.

The American Dream Film

Policing for Profit - The Abuse of Civil Asset Forfeiture

Now for the articles:

When Will They Figure It Out?
by Butler Shaffer


Government-created climate of fear
By Glenn Greenwald

edit on 19-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: Posted more links and made corrections

P.S.: I've completely forgotten this thread I authored months ago: How to Be Free: Harry Browne's Freedom Principles

edit on 20-1-2011 by TheBandit795 because: Posted the link to my earlier thread

Well, you indeed are dead right when saying that freedom is non-existent for most people. The only place where it is a state is in the Constitution, which is a non-binding social contract between the State and the people. A contract which stil can be used in legal manners, but then again you need to pay yourself the privilege to do that...

Freedom is a relative and active value, since you need to fight to get or preserve it.

BUT, no, the "freedom" enjoyed by these global sovereigns who travel first class without being patted down in airports and have many residences everywhere in the world, the conditions enjoyed by these "super-citizens", it's NOT freedom. It's privilege, or prosperity. Because freedom begins, as they say, on the respect of other people's freedom. Thus, as porn industrial Larry Flint once said: "Tolerance is a price to pay to live in a free world."

While these super-citizens are not overtly intolerant, and might not give a flying joe about how people live their lives down there, they support economical and political intolerance towards these Third world country people, by doing things like supporting and profiting from ruthless murderous dictatorships who gladly crush any freedom that lay people have. They promote a system that gives them these special privileges, because it allows them to parasite society, by abusing freedom and usurping the freedoms of other people.

This sounds all very abstract the way I write it, but when you look, as an example, at peasants in Niger who got their land stolen by force by Oil barons so that these rich people could secure themselves a high life somewhere in the Mediterranean (that thing you may call "freedom"). So these people's sovereignty over their land is usurped by these foreign crooks.

In that situation, the way for Nigerian farmers to take back their freedom, or land sovereignty would be -in simple words- to kick foreign investors and their assests out of their area, and work their way into gaining back some prosperity, some freedom with what's left. This is what common fols in The Niger Delta have been doing for a few years now, with the Movement for the Emancipation of Niger Delta. Recently they forced Halliburton into making a then a cash settlement after a gigantic class action against the corporation. They won.

As you see, freedom is a relative value. If you take it from other people, this means it might end up being taken from you a well. as long as there is conflict and some level of disorder, ther eis freedom, or it's potentiality.

HAHAHA. if someone thinks that having to work to live and being chained to this planet is freedom I laugh hard. We are as free as mice running endlessly on a wheel.
no one born onto Earth is free.

reply to post by spaznational


poo, you have to pay back money your leaders borrowed on your behalf, and paid themselves or their rich buddies off with mostly.

TheBandit795 ,

You are correct when saying that nobody is truly free.

The notion of freedom and the subsequent mental torture that we lay upon ourself for not having it is the price we pay for having self awareness.

We humans are blessed with a conscience but with that conscience comes morality. If we want to live together to survive, there are going to have to be rules to live by, simple. Don't want to comply with the rules than you are considered anti-social and a burden to society.

Freedom is an illusion and rightfully so because it wouldn't work, nothing would work if everybody was free.

Come to think of it, the closest any human might get to being truly free is by lacking a conscience. (Not serial killer because they are restricting them selfs by the need to kill) but I am talking about sociopaths and psychopaths.......but they can only exist if there aren't to many of 'm. The freedom of a sociopath is paid for by those who have a conscience.....I guess.

Peace

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by TheBandit795

 

"Freedom is the ability to choose your own responsibilities."

my definition is
Freedom is doing what you've chosen to do.


I'm doing many of the things I've chosen to do.
while i'm attaining the skills and resources to do the rest.

I'm a Wiccan,
magic is extremely empowering.
anything I commit to in my magic spell book, appears.
so can freely accomplish absolutely anything imaginable.



my life is truly a paradise.

Freedom is an abstract concept if you really want a real definition that encompasses all of what freedom is. Then this is the closest I can think of right now. Freedom is just a "word" that defines a bunch of concepts in peoples heads.

Off course there are other definitions out there as this thread can attest to. But my favorite is the one that Richard Nixon Head said on one of the episodes of futurama were they were celebrating freedom day.

"Richard Nixon's Head: My fellow Earthicans, we enjoy so much freedom, it's almost sickening. We're free to chose which hand our sex-monitoring chip is implanted in. And if we don't want to pay our taxes, why, we're free to spend a week with the Pain Monster."


This short clip explains it all "Freedom, freedom, freedom, oy! Freedom, freedom, freedom, oy!"


In the future we will be free to chose which hand the sex-monitoring chip is implanted in. Now freedom does not get any more free'er then that.

reply to post by spaznational

Poo, I have to pay back money I borrow?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom!
Poo, I have to follow laws in this Republic?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom!
Poo, my employer will fire me if I don't go in to work (as I agreed to do upon hiring)?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom! People who confuse surviving in reality with slavery need to hear about North Korea to have a little more perspective on freedom.

Why stop there lets compare people who complain in North Korea to the people who are starving and dieing in Africa right now as I type this....Or even better lets compare the starving Africans to the people that were alive during the black plaque in Europe and living in there own shint and starving to death as well as being diseased with the plaque. Sure glad we ain't them huh.

And why stop there we can even compare our freedom to the freedom of primitive men in ancient civilizations who had no TV and no Macdonald's and no job working for the "man". Can you imagine that, how did such people survive without TV and McDonald's, and had to actually hunt or raise there food on a farm. Oh the insanity and cruelty such a people must of endured......... Oh man we can go on and on and on, let's see which society or country we can compare ourself's to completely miss the point on what freedom is about. Which is nothing really but an idea, that we all semi agree on.

Here's a little perspective on freedom dude, if you compare it to the worst and say it's all good, well then your not really saying anything, on your current situation, or just in general. Things like what some of them "government/elites or corporation's, or insert your fear here[...............] is out to get us people". Are talking about on this thread don't fix them selfs if you compare them to someones bigger problems somewhere, and say it's all good compared to them and we are lucky that we are not there.

Because those who you compare yourself to, well they were likely in some situation like you are in before the shint hit there fan, and they ended up as they are. It's like you and a buddy are walking through a cow field and you both stepped in shint, and you say to yourself..."oh well at least the shint I stepped in was not as big as that one he stepped in " at the end of the day, you both smell funky and walk funny.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Please tell me what you comlaining and whining and telling us all of this actually does? What will it ever lead to? Will it ever get the technology released? Of course not, i am glad you have told everyone, information is good but now you have told everyone we must deal with reality.

Excuse me, but where was I "comlaining and whining?" Isn't that more infamatory than factual? What's your angle?

I know these are not false, as I have had small fragments pop up unexplainedly and incoherently all my life. I read a book that jarred my memory and the pieces I had were filled in with details. And having an aerospace engineer as a father who LOVED to explain how things worked, and the documented evidence of electrogravitics as presented in Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion... It all fits nicely.

And just how did you (or does anyone) prove that every one of us has "false" memories? How can we tell?

Originally posted by freedomSlave
To the thread post .. My thoughts exactly IMO I would say we are not really much better than off ancient Egypt just with better human rights. If you don't work you can't go squat anywhere, the local enforcement will throw you out. You can't hunt for food with out a permit that is called poaching. And if you do work and refuse to pay taxes that is a federal offense well here in Canada it is we call it called tax evasion. If you get hurt and can't work anymore or lose your job you are free to live on the street with your family. If you have a car is it not law that it must be insured.

It is freedom for some people to be able afford medical care and the cost as to the poor or working class get refused to some people. You are free to have less and less social programs and less access to money. We are free to work till the day we die , I am sure the majority of the population will never be able to afford to retire.

Freedom like many words we use have been so twisted and warped from the actual meaning. It actually amazes me that people so oblivious even with the definition of the word plainly in their face to read. Can't even see they we are all just freedom slaves

You living in the same Canada as me?

Here, if you lose your job you are "free" to find another one. If you are not happy with your job you are "free" to educate yourself and find something better. If you are injured on the job as you state, you dont lose your home, you get social assistance and are helped by the government to live in a LOT more comfort than people in say, Somalia.

In Canada, when you retire, you get a pension. You dont need to work till the day you die unless you are lazy and dont prepare well enough for your future. I make barely $35,000 a year, which is not much by todays standards, yet i have 2 cars and a comfortable home. I am saving money for retirement and can still afford to go on nice vacations every year.

You state only the rich can afford medicare here? What? Do you live in the Canada located in the Southern Pacific? Here we have universal medicare. Last time i had an operation i didnt pay one penny on somthing that would have cost me tens of thousands in the USA.

You state you dont pay your income tax and you get arrested as a BAD thing? Hell, everyone dodging these taxes should get locked up. I dont pay mine so i can sit back and watch deadbeats like you dodge them and expect no repercussions.

Perhaps you are bad with money and blame this on the government? Perhaps you did not take advantage of the many options we have for subsidizing education and get a decent job after school with said education? Either way, i think you need to look in the mirror, not blame everything on the governement.

Peoples sense of self-entitlement is starting to drive me nuts. Some people think just because they have to get off their asses and work and make somthing of themselves they are not "free". Well life isnt free and it never has been. Since the beginning of time people have worked to eat, worked to provide shelter, worked to better their lives. Get off you ass and do somthing about it if your not happy! The government sure isnt, and shouldnt do it for you.

Freedom, such a word does exist but it is not 100 % ever! We all have choices we can make in life, but it seems like the rules of society make us obey or more freedoms get ripped out from under our wings. Great thread and discussion

Originally posted by TheBandit795

There are better ways to create an income than just having a job.

Who wouldn't want to be their own bosses? But i am sure you know that if everyone was their own bosses then who would be making factory jobs such as making clothes, boots, etc, etc, etc?

I am not a business owner, and I am not rich, but I do know that if everyone was their own boss, no one would be making clothes, since you need employees to make clothes, boots, food products, etc, etc, etc.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Income taxes are not necessary

I am sorry but you are wrong, that report does not say in any way that "taxes are not necessary", but rather that there has been too much spending, and ineficiency within the Federal bank/government.

You are trying to claim that because of ineficiencies, which actually is just a money laundry scheme, that there shouldn't be taxes, but the truth is far from what you claim.

We wouldn't have the debt we have now IF taxes were used as they are supposed to, so WE DO NEED TAXES unfortunately. However, we should be having a flat tax, instead of taxes for everything. Soon enough and thanks to Obama and his administration we will be paying taxes on CO2, so in essence we will be paying taxes for breathing.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Apparently you haven't read some of the posts I've made in this thread, but that's okay. I've explicitly stated that I'm for freedom without having to hurt others or imposing my will on others. It is possible, yet not really practised

I was responding to your initial post, so I had not read your other comments when I first posted mine.

By your OP you seemed to be implying that we need some form of anarchy in order for you to feel free, that's what your OP seemed to be saying.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by spaznational

 

Poo, I have to pay back money I borrow?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom!
Poo, I have to follow laws in this Republic?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom!
Poo, my employer will fire me if I don't go in to work (as I agreed to do upon hiring)?! I'm a slave, I have no freedom! People who confuse surviving in reality with slavery need to hear about North Korea to have a little more perspective on freedom.

Why stop there lets compare people who complain in North Korea to the people who are starving and dieing in Africa right now as I type this....Or even better lets compare the starving Africans to the people that were alive during the black plaque in Europe and living in there own shint and starving to death as well as being diseased with the plaque. Sure glad we ain't them huh.

And why stop there we can even compare our freedom to the freedom of primitive men in ancient civilizations who had no TV and no Macdonald's and no job working for the "man". Can you imagine that, how did such people survive without TV and McDonald's, and had to actually hunt or raise there food on a farm. Oh the insanity and cruelty such a people must of endured......... Oh man we can go on and on and on, let's see which society or country we can compare ourself's to completely miss the point on what freedom is about. Which is nothing really but an idea, that we all semi agree on.

Here's a little perspective on freedom dude, if you compare it to the worst and say it's all good, well then your not really saying anything, on your current situation, or just in general. Things like what some of them "government/elites or corporation's, or insert your fear here[...............] is out to get us people". Are talking about on this thread don't fix them selfs if you compare them to someones bigger problems somewhere, and say it's all good compared to them and we are lucky that we are not there.

Because those who you compare yourself to, well they were likely in some situation like you are in before the shint hit there fan, and they ended up as they are. It's like you and a buddy are walking through a cow field and you both stepped in shint, and you say to yourself..."oh well at least the shint I stepped in was not as big as that one he stepped in " at the end of the day, you both smell funky and walk funny.

Generally speaking, the "shint people step in" who live in the U.S. are their own. They have the freedom to pursue their own happiness (which is far from a guarantee of happiness). In a place such as North Korea, you have an obvious dictator trampling on the natural rights of his people. North Koreans are essentially born into slavery and slavery is the opposite of freedom by any standard, so my comparison of the U.S. and N.K. is very cogent to the subject of freedom.

But, I understand what you are saying. The subject of freedom is, well, subjective. But to have a functional society based on freedom we must agree to agree on certain points, and my basic point is: freedom doesn't mean freedom from responsibility or freedom from the needs of survival. In fact, as our freedom is rather well-described in founding documents as "natural" or "god-given," these freedoms imply a corollary: each freedom requires a responsibility to uphold, respect, or otherwise not violate the freedom of others.

Originally posted by stealthc
reply to post by spaznational

 

poo, you have to pay back money your leaders borrowed on your behalf, and paid themselves or their rich buddies off with mostly.

I agree that THAT is injustice and the fodder of revolution.

reply to post by spaznational


Your answer was actually pretty good.

In a place such as North Korea, you have an obvious dictator trampling on the natural rights of his people.

Yes and that obvious dictator did not get to the place he did by himself. And even in america a dictator can come to power. But were Democratic here some say, so if it happens it will be a bunch of dictators most likely.

North Koreans are essentially born into slavery and slavery is the opposite of freedom by any standard, so my comparison of the U.S. and N.K. is very cogent to the subject of freedom.

From there perspective they are a very free people "as far as they know", after all thats what lil kim and there propaganda machine says. Are you calling comrade lil Kim a lier. lol

The perspective of ignorance is many leveled, freedom is meaningless unless put in perspective but it would vary like you say by what you compare it to. What I say'd is if you compare your freedom to N.K. well then a lot of places in the world have freedom, there are more places in the world were you can question your leader and not get shot or sent to prison other then america and there freedom.

But, I understand what you are saying. The subject of freedom is, well, subjective. But to have a functional society based on freedom we must agree to agree on certain points, and my basic point is: freedom doesn't mean freedom from responsibility or freedom from the needs of survival

Subjective as well as pretty much non existent, we are non of us free in the very sense of the word. That word is pretty much meaningless, in this country it's more or less used by different groups and political party's to get what they want. What would be more free for them, that is. A concept a dream, an illusion, a distraction from the real truth, and also a tool of those who heard sheeple to there goal's. I cant tell you who has the most freedom in this world, but I can tell you who thinks that they are the most free N.K..... indoctrination can achieve much.

And that's why I think in this situation it's best to not be happy with were we are with our freedom compared to some other country, but we should be concerned with how much better it can be then it already is. What do I care what others think, when they don't even think past there mighty ruler, oh the most mighty of the tiniest of rulers, lil Kim, at least we are not north korea eh.

Though judging by what people pick in there political leaders here in the great U.S.A we might not be that far off from N.K. only more informed of our plight and in greater numbers...... Sarah Palin anyone...to run for president.... Maybe we should thank the corporations, or shadow government, or whatever is the real power behind it all, at least they know how to put on a show. I don't believe Sarah Palin would know much about freedom, only that if she says things written for her and speaks in a certain way, somebody gives her moneys. The world we live in is freaking hilarious if you think about it, and for now it's not the tragically hilarious kind, but time will tell.

read hobbes or rousseau, freedom isn't free - it comes at a price....the loss of freedom.

Think about some real life examples.

In America, with very few exceptions, you can never own property outright. If you purchase the home using cash, you will still have to pay rent for the property on which it sits ie property taxes.

Consider income tax. If for whatever reason you refuse to pay income tax, the government has given itself the authority to seize your assets, bank accounts and garnish your wages and future income. Ultimately they can imprison you. IMPRISON YOU for not paying taxes even after they seize your possessions...

True freedom is derived from rights that supersede any State. In fact, freedom revolves around protection from the State.

Living in Australia i consider my self free,others may not,but that's not my problem,
We pay income tax here and it does not just go on paying national debt,here it pays for healthcare,road's,defence etc
A lot of peep's here seem to have a problem with democracy ,My question to them is what the hell do you suggest as a better workable option? (notice the word workable)
To some freedom seems to be getting something for nothing,good luck with that,

Originally posted by gladtobehere
Think about some real life examples.

In America, with very few exceptions, you can never own property outright. If you purchase the home using cash, you will still have to pay rent for the property on which it sits ie property taxes.

Consider income tax. If for whatever reason you refuse to pay income tax, the government has given itself the authority to seize your assets, bank accounts and garnish your wages and future income. Ultimately they can imprison you. IMPRISON YOU for not paying taxes even after they seize your possessions...

True freedom is derived from rights that supersede any State. In fact, freedom revolves around protection from the State.

Riiiiight. So your idea of freedom is reaping all the benefits of a democracy but expecting not to have to pay for said benefits. Real mature outlook.

People who don't pay taxes should be locked up. If you do not, honest, tax paying citizens like myself must pay more. Is that fair? People with half a brain realize that taxes pay for thing you need to live at the level of comfort we do in the West.

Don't want to pay you taxes, fine. But don't expect police protection, running water, sewage, electricity, social programs, helll just about anything.

Want an example of a society without taxes and government, try Somalia.