Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

What freedoms are you talking about???

page: 6
119
<< 3  4  5    7  8 >>

log in

join

posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 01:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

So having luxuries is freedom and not having them means you are not free? Sorry this is now ridiculous. Luxuries are not a right, you can be perfectly free without them. In fact what i just said to you was that you can either stick with your principles which means cutting back on luxuries or you can be tied to the system, albeit in a small way and have your luxuries.

These are both choices and therefore involve freedom.

NO...it is true luxuries can be sacrificed for personal freedom but they can also be attained for the same ends, it is not the abundance of, or lack of these goods that dictate whether a person is free or not, it is the little things that come along with it, for example, i cringe everytime i pay a tax to the federal government (of which luxuries are heavily taxed by ythe federal government). i feel that everytime i do i am contributing to the downfall of my country, contributing the hatred that is spreading across the globe against Americans, contributing to the death and destruction of families across the globe. I suppose if you are a mindless drone who doesnt see the big picture as i do then you wouldnt worry about it, but i do, and the pain and stress this causes me on a regular basis dictates that i am not as free as i want to be


Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

I think this comes down to how you define freedom. If i can do what i like in society as long as i don't harm anyone then i consider myself free. Even if i have to pay an electric bill i'm still free because i can stop paying it anytime, i won't have electricity but the choice is there.

Still not sure how i define freedom, one of the reasons i choose to take part in this discussion. On one hand i agree with you, freedom can be had in many ways, its all up to the perspective of the person claiming it. On the other hand, as someone who has choosen for the better part of 20 years to "sit on the fence" of society i feel it has afforded me a perspective to see how life could be, both within the system and without it. I know that i am free to make the decisions to remain on the "fringe" but that has closed many doors for me and so in a sense i am not free to do some of the things i would like to do. Even though i am free to make the choice to fully join society, i freely choose not to because of the personal beleifs i hold dear.


Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Are you homeless then? If you don't own or rent a home then where do you live? Btw i'm not judging i've worked with the homeless, most of them are just average people.

Yes i am, have been since March of 2003, prior to that i had come to the conclusion that if certain events took place i would freely choose not to take part in society. Since then i have found it extremely difficult to severe the ties i have with society, my family and my freinds. Most of whom i owe my current existance to as they have provided me with shelter, food and love. I do work, hard...always have and always will, in that sense i have never really taken myself out of society as i still contribute to federal, state and local couffers as well as medicare and SS. I have never taken from social security or welfare and have always contributed to the lives of those who have helped me along the way, both in labor and financially.


Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Well they have a choice to sacrifice luxuries to make themselves utterly independent, i'm confused as to what you consider freedom. My definition is clear, it's about choice as to what to do.

Tbh i'm confused as to what you consider freedom, you seem to think having to use the electric grid means you are not free, but then i suggest a way out of that and you then say that not having luxuries means you are no longer free. But this all revolves around choice, a choice you have, which means you are free by the definition i gave.


While i agree here, it seems odd that i am subject to your ideals of freedom (not that that would necessarily be bad thing).
I suppose if i had to define my ideal freedom it would be life in a society that works for the betterment of society, where all the people work together to make social gains, not for personal profit or control. Not because some leader thinks he needs to create jobs to get a better approval rating, or so they can pass some law to chisel away at our social structure.
Not to serve one political ideology or another.
Its not that i think being a part of society or not, dictates personal/individual freedom. If i thought, for one moment that paying a tax or fee would help society as a whole i would have no problem with it, but i know better.




posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 01:21 PM
link   
i've have debts which i pay to a creditor.... i was in the hosptal so couldn't pay my annual amount , so they've decided to double the fee i need to pay .... im in the hospital how the f*ck can i do anything ? They can do whatever they like and if you can't get a lawyer you're f*ck*d - i had to go through tons of telephone calls and paperwork and at the end came up with the conclusion that getting this to court is even more expensive than paying penalties......paid thousands of dollars over the years.... almost got rid of paying debts and they double it.

they put fluoride and other cr*p in drinking eater ... you have no choice... trying to create choices cost you #loads of money

the majority voted on a liberal political party.... i didn't ..so why should i live under their rules and laws ?

why the hell do i have to pay taxes for goverments which go to war against my will.....

they control everything ..... now i hear you saying '' well live off the lands '' .... seriously i would but our country is small and there is no way of hiding from the goverments , i probably would get arrested for illegal camping as it happened before.

freedom exists..... the problem is you have to buy freedom..



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 01:47 PM
link   
reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Amerikans who study the historical principles of "freedom" have a particularly heavy set of filters with which to view concepts and connotations of this liberty/freedom stuff.

Personally I simply define freedom as- "the ability to make my own choices" (and "wealth" as an abundance of choices).

True though, the real life application of "freedom" is illusory. Throughout human history, there have been constraints within force, economy and psychology to limit freedom. We often immediately go to examples within politics, however simple peer pressure (not farting at the dinner table) is a form of constraint.

You've identified the pulse of two contradicting paradigms within the human race. 1. An animal of social construct, and 2. an individual soul experiencing life.

"Freedom" is a concept that is rooted in #2 nowadays. Back when the Magna Carta codified many concepts, "freedom"s were related to a social class part of #1.

Amerikans had a period of "rugged individualism" where along the frontier small groups of people fought the elements, the natives and fortune or folly often on an individual basis.

These combine for a heavily matriculated filter to conceptualize "freedom" that is very unique to the human experience. Europeans don't quite get the concept in the same way an Amerikan sees it himself. They have alternative connotations, historical reference and both social and institutional indoctrinations.

This doesn't change the simple fact that this is a human dilemma: An individual creature that is hard-wired to be part of some social order. It happens everywhere.

I have seen within movies and publications the fantasy future, where the collective have a dominant society but there also exists a "reservation" or "freehold" where those who don't want to participate within the Matrix can escape to. Unfortunately, there is no longer such an enclave known to me where one can escape to be free (with the subjugation and institutionalization of the once free & brave USA).

(Ex: Matrix, Surrogates, Hell comes to Frog Town, Forum for the World's Plannedopolis (yt- Pcp6ov9Md8U ), etc)

I find it amazing that our societies have been built up without this simple "opt out" reservation/free zone. It seems such a simple solution for a legacy of functional errors.

Honest interest in the conceptualizations of "freedom" is healthy. Every human soul desires some piece of the pie (in varying portions
, but also every human soul needs some social contract with superiors and subordinates (also in varying degrees).... it's actually insane to think that this problem has existed since the first human eyebrow expressed frustration, and here we are just now wrestling with a functional model harmonious with our very nature...



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 01:51 PM
link   



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
What did you expect, that everything would be given to you free? Having a job, even one you don't like doesn't mean you are not free. First of all you can leave that job and get another even though you do have to take in consideration the created economic crisis, but you do have a choice. Second of all you even have the choice of living in the streets if you want. There are people who do so, many for mental problems, and others for other reasons including not wanting to get a job, so you do have the choice.


There are better ways to create an income than just having a job. Check out the cashflow quadrant by Robert Kiyosaki. On the left side of the cashflow quandrant are employees and self employed people. On the left side are the people who are business owners and investors. People on the right side of the quadrant enjoy a level of freedom that most people on the left side can only imagine having. Most people start off on the left side (job), and it takes work and effort to reach to the right side, but it should well be worth the effort.






In any society there must be income taxes, even though they have gotten out of hand yes, but still in order for a society to function you have to pay some form of income taxes, otherwise who will maintain streets, street lights? How will you pay for government jobs that make sure society functions?

Having to pay taxes does not mean you are not free, but rather that you are a responsible person living within society. However, taxes are getting out of hand as more and more people, and government officials as well as tptb want you to depend more, and more on government.


Income taxes are not necessary


The report said that one-third of all income taxes is consumed by waste and inefficiency in the federal government, and another one-third escapes collection owing to the underground economy. “With two thirds of everyone’s personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the federal debt and by federal government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services [that] taxpayers expect from their government."


And here is a neat little video on why income taxes go into the pocket of the Rothschilds and other international bankers.





Did anyone force you to get loans, or get a credit card?

I am pretty sure that you had the choice to either get them, or not.


No one did, and I am in the process of paying them back. College loan included.



It seems clear that you are confusing freedom with anarchy. With freedom comes responsibility, and freedom is not anarchy.

When you do anything you want without any regards to the freedom of others that is anarchy, and anarchy in a society brings chaos.


Apparently you haven't read some of the posts I've made in this thread, but that's okay. I've explicitly stated that I'm for freedom without having to hurt others or imposing my will on others. It is possible, yet not really practised



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:18 PM
link   
reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Well, i can certainly understand your frustrations with the US debt the way it is.

Sadly, deficit budget after deficit budget will drive up debt. Its sad a US citizen is born into as much debt as he or she is, but the reality is, you put yourselves there. Or, i suppose in order not to get lynched, i should say your elected governments have.

People need to form a lobby group to force the government to turn in balanced budgets within a short time frame of a few years and hold them to them. And what people need to realize is this will be painful for everyone in the short term.

I look all over the world today and i see governments borrowing massive amounts of money year after year. Greece, Spain, Ireland and more are now paying for it in a big way, and i suspect it wont be long before the US dollar is worthless. Sadly, as 90% of our Canadian export market goes south of the border, i fear our economy will be doomed too. Time to diversify our exports more out the the EU and Asia.



edit on 20-1-2011 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:25 PM
link   
Btw.. I'm not from the U.S., but I do have a feeling most countries income taxes go to paying those loan interests. But I agree with you. Government need to balance their budgets, and stop the war rackets.. The main reason for war in recent history is so governments can borrow money from international bankers so they can wage their wars. The same bankers usually sponsor both sides of each war... But that's another topic.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:33 PM
link   
reply to post by TheBandit795
 


Fine, but even if i do follow your post above the last one and i was to actually believe that NONE of the federal income tax dollars goes to anything besides corruption and interest on the debt, how can you not pay it?

If you stop paying the tax as you propose, you are proposing to renege on your financial obligations? After all, did the government not borrow that money from intenational lenders with the express intent of paying it back?

I would think it a criminal act of the highest order for the US government not to pay back what was loaned to it in good faith. No one held a gun to their heads and made them borrow money, especially when they have had the strongest economy in the world since WW2. Well, soon bye-bye #1 economy to China, but thats another matter.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:45 PM
link   
As far as freedom goes it's a matter of opinion. I feel I am a free person. I am surrounded by my peers who are obsessed with drugs, alcohol, sex and an irrational need to be accepted by almost everyone. I am free from these things. I am my own person, i express my individual beliefs and personality. By being my own person, most of the people in my generation misunderstand me. I am hard working and a moral person. Most people are not like that. I choose to be the person I am instead of being a generic person. I am not judgmental I am just perceptive. So I am free to the be the person I want to be. On the other hand, I am restricted by the government in my freedom due to laws and whatnot. Some of them are just and some are not. Unfortunately that is a sacrifice we make to live in a world of technology and convenience. I accept this. I believe to be truly free, you choose the path you take. Sometimes there are more choices available and sometimes there aren't. That's life and it wont change. I choose to be my own person, believe what makes sense to me and make decisions based on my morals. Based on this I am a fee man



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:55 PM
link   
Wow, I just read the Grace commission report....A LOT of incredible info I never knew about.


"The size of the underground economy is understandable when one considers that median family income taxes have increased from $9 in 1948 to $2,218 in 1983, or by 246 times. This is runaway taxation at its worst."

HOLY **** 246x increase in only 36 years, I wonder what the increase from 1983 (or around) to 2011 is.

This got me interested in exactly what % of my money is gone before ANY material item enters my hands.

I make ~70k a year. (which unfortunately bumps me into the extreme low end of a higher bracket....)

Using 70,000 as my base number, the Federal Govt. STEALS 25% of my income right away. Now, as CA has a state income tax they take another 9.3%. But there is more, in California we also pay the "luxury tax" aka state double dipping with a 9% income tax. So they're taking 43 1/3rd of every dollar I make or 22,890. Real easy stuff to come up with, but I guess I just never did the research myself. Shocking numbers there.

Leaves me curious as to where exactly this money goes, because (at least out here in CA) our crime rate is terrible, our education is practically worthless (I put my children through private school) our infrastructure is crumbling before our eyes, our roads are filled with potholes and we have a corrupt justice system and retards such as pelosi being constantly reelected

ANYONE NEED A ROOMMATE WITH A WIFE AND THREE KIDS AND CAN FIND ME A JOB OUTSIDE OF CA? hah



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:13 PM
link   
Freedom, much like peace, is little more than personal perception.
At night, my mind floats freely like a feather in the wind.
While awake, my body is a prison I can't escape.
Freedom is a state of mind. Think freely!



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:38 PM
link   
The response by the first person to the OP made sense...however it did not explain coercion...that is: Although the OP was free NOT to do those things like you said...he was coerced into doing them because the alternative was rather distasteful.

For example. The OP says he was forced to have a credit card, and your response was that he had a freedom to not have one. By this logic every country / state / empire has always had the freedom.

That is that Freedom = Choice. Everyone has always had the freedom to stuff such as: sodomy, gay love, polygamy, devil worship, and pedophilia. However, they do not always have the ability to commit such acts and get away with them without facing the judgment of others.

But getting back to the credit card example, it is true that there are some things you simply cannot buy without having one. And I do not even think it is possible (at least in the U.S.) to live your entire life without having a bank account. Some jobs require stuff like that, and so do more significant purchases. Therefore, it seems that banking or even the use of a credit/debit card is a fundamental part of life in modern society. Now he can be a rebel and choose to not have those things...but the result would be becoming a social pariah...a bum by choice. And to him that isn't much of a choice at all...thus not a freedom.

But honestly this "true freedom" encompassing every aspect of life is an impossibility. Coercion is always there...if not by the elites then by your fellow man. It is why a state of total anarchy is not really possible. The people will devise their own social systems to deal with the problems they face...thus creating groups/networks/communities of morally like-minded people.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:42 PM
link   

Originally posted by Howtosurvive2012
Freedom, much like peace, is little more than personal perception.
At night, my mind floats freely like a feather in the wind.
While awake, my body is a prison I can't escape.
Freedom is a state of mind. Think freely!


Yes, and the mind is just one state. These people are referring to total freedom in society. But I too feel that the mind is very free...especially when I sleep. I can dream of anything and do anything and not be punished for those things I do in my dreams. (That is because everyone and everything in my dream is just a projection of myself. My brother, friends, and parents may look like people I know...but they arent those people...they are merely how I perceived them to be!)

But of course your response will get targeted by futurists talking about Thought Police. We are free to think and imagine anything...but once we open our mouths and share our thoughts...well that is where the problem comes in.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 04:09 PM
link   
I did not read all 6 pages of responses,
but I thought this was an interesting view of freedom.

I considered how I respond for a while, and then it hit me.

You ARE free to do whatever you'd like.

You ARE free to not pay your bills.

You ARE free to quit working.

You ARE free to ignore laws.

You ARE free to not bathe or get dressed ever again.

You ARE free to stop eating, drinking, or consuming.

You ARE also free to never take another breath of air again,

HOWEVER,

You are not free from the ramifications of your choices.

Whether those ramifications are imposed by nature or by man,
is also something you are free to choose.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 04:52 PM
link   
I am free, I can do anything I want within the law and thats just ok with me.

You on the other hand seem like you are a prisoner of yourself.

Case in point. can you practice your religion of you have one. can you go a walk in the mountains. can you fly to another country. can you marry who you want to. can you buy luxury items if you wanted to. These are just a few things that you can do that some in others countries can't.

You could be really free if you went to a deserted island in the south pacific. But you wont' you'll stay where you are and moan that life isn't fair like all those other 'victims of self'.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:01 PM
link   
The one concept I never understood, perhaps somebody could explain this to me, is when people or officials say the soldiers are fighting for my liberty as a citizen. Lets take Iraq as an example, its not like it was a hub for terrorists before we went in.

In reality the fall out of the Iraq war had a lot of innocent blood spilled, I dont see how that defends my liberty
edit on 20-1-2011 by CrazyMonkey because: needed to add the last sentence



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:15 PM
link   
reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy
 


It used to pay for things for you and I. But those things are all crumbling and now it pays the bankers. What an ignorant statement. Do you even know how much of it goes to them?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:19 PM
link   
reply to post by daggyz
 


No you can't, I religiously believe that pot is better than big pharma meds, and I that is my personal belief because I don't see pot killing people like their drugs do -- all the pot users out there get relief of their symptoms with a reduced expense to their health -- but we are not free to make that choice.

We are not free so long as we accept the hierarchy, we must abolish it, and learn to rule over ourselves locally rather than ship the government off to some distant land in a secure fortress which we aren't allowed to go to for security reasons. I want all of my government in my own city, the rest of the world be damned they can arrange to do it the same way. I am willing to work for land, but I am not willing to live on my land under their rule, therefore I shall be the biggest social drain possible until I can achieve my dream of not having anything to do with their fire trucks and ambulances and roads. I could care less if we had them or not.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by Tulkor

Originally posted by Howtosurvive2012
Freedom, much like peace, is little more than personal perception.
At night, my mind floats freely like a feather in the wind.
While awake, my body is a prison I can't escape.
Freedom is a state of mind. Think freely!


Yes, and the mind is just one state. These people are referring to total freedom in society. But I too feel that the mind is very free...especially when I sleep. I can dream of anything and do anything and not be punished for those things I do in my dreams. (That is because everyone and everything in my dream is just a projection of myself. My brother, friends, and parents may look like people I know...but they arent those people...they are merely how I perceived them to be!)

But of course your response will get targeted by futurists talking about Thought Police. We are free to think and imagine anything...but once we open our mouths and share our thoughts...well that is where the problem comes in.


I would just like to add, remember to dream big



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 07:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by Oaktree
I did not read all 6 pages of responses,
but I thought this was an interesting view of freedom.

I considered how I respond for a while, and then it hit me.

You ARE free to do whatever you'd like.
check


You ARE free to not pay your bills.
check


You ARE free to quit working.
check


You ARE free to ignore laws.
check


You ARE free to not bathe or get dressed ever again.
check, although I get laid if i bathe


You ARE free to stop eating, drinking, or consuming.
check, but not free to keep eating drinking and consuming


You ARE also free to never take another breath of air again,
check -- but you are not entirely free to stop


HOWEVER,

You are not free from the ramifications of your choices.

Whether those ramifications are imposed by nature or by man,
is also something you are free to choose.









 
119
<< 3  4  5    7  8 >>

log in

join