What freedoms are you talking about???

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
wow, thats great...so i am free to drink and bathe from polluted ground water and pay exorbitant amounts of money to install solar cells which in fact in most cases is only a suplimental energy source.

Excuse me but you were the one who made out like paying for clean water was against the idea of freedom, so i suggest wells and you still think that's wrong, basically there is no way out because you continually move the goalposts.

As for solar panels well lots of people live with them it just means you have to cut back on your usage of electricity, if you want to use energy hogging items then you need to pay for electricity but for some reason you take issue with this or think it's against freedom.

It seems you want all the benefits and luxuries of society without any of the tie ins that come with the infrastructure that supply you those luxuries and benefits.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
While efficient solar or wind energy sources are becoming more viable for the private consumers they are far from the independant energy source many are looking for.

Utterly incorrect. Plenty of people live using only these things, they simply cut back on luxury items that hog energy. So either you go with your ideals and use solar panels or you abandon your ideals and pay for electrictity. Or of course you realise that paying for electricity doesn't really sacrifice your freedom and you are being over sensitive.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
As for my paying taxes to the local and state entities for maitainance on a variety of puplic works, my feelings are not the same in reguards to the higher cost of federal taxes which do not support communities but rather, are funneled into ongoing wars, wasteful and overpriced government spending, and already full pockets...

I've adressed this above, it is the fault of the people for not stopping their governments that this occurs, if you want to stop it then be a part of the solution, write to your representative, go on protests and that kind of thing.


BTW when it comes to sustainable energy we will eventually develop fusion that can be used for energy. There is a tokamak based reactor being planned for construction in the next 10 years and hopefully that will spawn a new generation in energy.

reply to post by nightbringr


That was not my intention. My intention is for us to try to determine for ourselves what true freedom is (ensuring that we do not harm others in the process), and trying to achieve that level of freedom. The people who run the sites I mentioned in the middle of my OP, are living lives without borders; they live where they want, how they want. And they have the means and resources to support them. They are not against government, they are against oppressive, big government that wants to set rules and regulations in place for practically every part of our lives and are ready tax a huge amount our incomes in order to pay interest to some central bank or world banking agency.

They spend their time in places where is easy to set up businesses and to do business (for example), without having to suffer under unnecessary rules and regulations which either prohibit or limit the ability to open a small business. Western (bloated) governments it seems, don't really like small business or small business owners as we can see by way of their actions.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

I've adressed this above, it is the fault of the people for not stopping their governments that this occurs, if you want to stop it then be a part of the solution, write to your representative, go on protests and that kind of thing.

In your country, the United States of America, that rarely works anymore because of corporate lobbyists...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Welcome To The Special Interest "Republic"

It's not difficult to spot the four types of people rushing about in the tunnels below the congressional office buildings. Interns and pages are young and generally are dressed in the best office casual Gap or J. Crew can buy. Congressional staff members are a bit older, and always in business suits from the more expensive selections of Sears or Kohls, or Macy's if they're a more senior staff members. Actual members of Congress are among the best-dressed best-coifed people around, and typically the only ones able to wear a smile. Which leaves us with the lobbyists... who are all wearing dark-colored higher-end business suits, serious expressions, fatigued carriage, and comfortable shoes. Once you can identify the various denizens it becomes obvious this is no longer our republic, and we're in deep trouble.

While we here on ATS have always known we're in deep trouble, the picture was clearly painted and readily experienced during lunch. In one the massive cafeterias of the Longworth building, easily 100 (or more) yards long by 60 wide, more than 80% of all the people in the packed room were lobbyists grabbing some lunch. Our companion lobbyist confirmed the guess, and also confirmed that it was this way in all the cafeterias, and has been since he can remember (18-year veteran of DC).

So I asked him, "With all these well-paid professional lobbyists representing big chunks of potential money, how do actual constituents stand a chance?" His response, "They don't, they never did."

I reminded him of the subject matter of my site, and how his statement confirms the concerns of conspiracy theorists everywhere. He said, "It used to be a conspiracy, now it's just the way things are."

To be totally free is to be free of the influence of the carnal spirit, or the 'devil inside'. Humanity, for the most part, is not free for this reason. Those who continue to rely on the solutions provided by those governed by the carnal spirit are not free in any sense of the word! Human 'reason' is fatally flawed because the carnal spirit governs human thinking. It won't end well for those who worship this spirit!

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by fordrew

 

IMO our economy is not based on capitalism, but on corporatism. Plus large corporations and big government go hand in hand it seems...

THIS I can agree with.

Why is it that we spent hundreds of B-B-B-BILLIONS of $ to bail out all these greedy mega corps that got themselves in a bad spot by taking too many risks? Thats not capitalism. Capitalism is like Darwins theory of survival of the fittest. When govt gets involved in commerce, that tells me that someone is pulling the puppet strings of the govt.

Hmmmm....maybe the people who formerly worked for big business and now work for big govt have something to do with it.....

Oh yeah, and where's MY bailout? Who's going to pick up my house payment and cover my debts when I spend too much money and lose my a$$?

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

I've adressed this above, it is the fault of the people for not stopping their governments that this occurs, if you want to stop it then be a part of the solution, write to your representative, go on protests and that kind of thing.

In your country, the United States of America, that rarely works anymore because of corporate lobbyists...

Sorry but you've fallen into the trap of believing you don't have power. The lobbyists have upset the system in your country and have upset it in mine as well (although in mine it's far more underhand), however the people truly do have the power. Imagine for a moment if 50% of the people marched all on the same day. This would scare the living hell out of the government because there are not enough police to deal with that number of people. The only option would be to bring the military in and if that happens you're talking civil war because once people see soldiers then any illusions of a free society disappear. Once soliders march then the rest of the population would be angry and the government would realise that their necks are about to feel rope.

The government only feel safe enough to mess around because they know the people are not motivated enough to do anything. But don't ever forget that the people have the power.

reply to post by MrWendal

Originally posted by MrWendal
Than what I am paying State Taxes for? The Federal Government does not fix the roads, does not provide for the Fire Department or Local Police. That is paid for by your State Taxes. Not your Federal taxes. Also many Americans pay an "income tax" at the State AND Federal levels

State taxes are for local fire, and police, and small roads. Federal taxes pay for things like interstate highways, military, coast guard, intelligence agencies, and federal police like FBI, and other benefits that are at your disposal when you need them like disability benefits, and unemployment.

I think it is really dumb when people say "income tax doesn't pay for services, it pays the debt and goes straight to the bankers!"..... Well were did the debt come from? It came from paying for services...

It's like buying a TV with a credit card, and then claiming "my money doesn't go towards buying a TV, it goes straight to the credit card companies!".

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Oops.. now I see you're in the UK. I live in Aruba.

Imagine for a moment if 50% of the people marched all on the same day. This would scare the living hell out of the government because there are not enough police to deal with that number of people.

One thing we have to study is how are they manipulating/brainwashing the people into apathy. In Dutch we call it the "ver van mijn bed" (far away from my bed) syndrome, which is a belief that revolutions, huge political happenings or paradigm changes only happen in far away countries...That's another thread though.


Btw, I know what the power of the people is, but because of the apathy it is very difficult to get 50% of the population of any country to stand up.

Well, there you have it. Most people have no concept of what an ideal society would be like without being a slave to the system that began for most with a public education. Also required. They watched their parents work the eight hour shifts and maybe one vacation over the course of a year. Most people are not free to leave their place of employment for longer than two weeks, if that much, to pursue enjoyment. That would be a luxury.

What would a perfect society be? I'm sure it would have free energy and a life that wouldn't require most of our adult life slaving away, instead of being with family and enjoying life and taking the time for creative expression. Most people get around two weeks to vacation and it's back to the grind for most. It's the high cost of living that requires the majority of our waking life to stay off the streets, and then we grow old and die and the next generation takes over.

yes, perhaps i am being overly sensitive to these issues, i feel it neccesary in light of all those around me who are not, balance and all that...

and no...you are wrong about my thoughts on paying for services my issue is with the third party taxation of such services.

Also i dont see how free a person is if they have to cut back on luxury items, doesnt that sort of defeat the intent of being free in the sense they can no longer enjoy some of the basic "luxuries" of life, all by thier own choices of course.

Please dont misunderstand me here, i am truly for personal sacrifice and cutting back on "luxuries".
As i have said before i dont own a car,i dont own a home nor rent one, all due to my freedom of choice, and while this may cause my perspective to be different than some one, such as your freinds, that does not make it any less true
The Only point i was trying make here was that even though some people make the decisions to be a bit more independant, that alone does not make them free.

IF they feel and think that these actions give them more freedom then by all means, sacrifice away...I just dont see how that fits into your beleifs, sorry if i am confused...

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by TheBandit795

 

To me freedom is simple

I am free if i can do whatever i like as long as i don't hurt anyone.

This has already been said in several different ways but I will say it again in my way.

We are all free. We are born free creatures with complete freedom of choice. It is our socio economic circumstances that we are born into and the choices that we make that determine to what degree we can express true freedom.

A free society is an oxymoron. Freedom is of the individual and by entering into the compact of a society you are by choice giving up your freedoms. Which you are free to leave (with varying degrees of difficulty) at any time no matter who you are or where you are in the world.

That said real personal freedom in my opinion a luxury that can only be expressed by the wisest, strongest, and luckiest among us.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
Also i dont see how free a person is if they have to cut back on luxury items, doesnt that sort of defeat the intent of being free in the sense they can no longer enjoy some of the basic "luxuries" of life, all by thier own choices of course.

So having luxuries is freedom and not having them means you are not free? Sorry this is now ridiculous. Luxuries are not a right, you can be perfectly free without them. In fact what i just said to you was that you can either stick with your principles which means cutting back on luxuries or you can be tied to the system, albeit in a small way and have your luxuries.

These are both choices and therefore involve freedom.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
Please dont misunderstand me here, i am truly for personal sacrifice and cutting back on "luxuries".
As i have said before i dont own a car,i dont own a home nor rent one, all due to my freedom of choice, and while this may cause my perspective to be different than some one, such as your freinds, that does not make it any less true
The Only point i was trying make here was that even though some people make the decisions to be a bit more independant, that alone does not make them free.

I think this comes down to how you define freedom. If i can do what i like in society as long as i don't harm anyone then i consider myself free. Even if i have to pay an electric bill i'm still free because i can stop paying it anytime, i won't have electricity but the choice is there.

Are you homeless then? If you don't own or rent a home then where do you live? Btw i'm not judging i've worked with the homeless, most of them are just average people.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
IF they feel and think that these actions give them more freedom then by all means, sacrifice away...I just dont see how that fits into your beleifs, sorry if i am confused...

Well they have a choice to sacrifice luxuries to make themselves utterly independent, i'm confused as to what you consider freedom. My definition is clear, it's about choice as to what to do.

Tbh i'm confused as to what you consider freedom, you seem to think having to use the electric grid means you are not free, but then i suggest a way out of that and you then say that not having luxuries means you are no longer free. But this all revolves around choice, a choice you have, which means you are free by the definition i gave.

reply to post by TheBandit795


What particularly disgusts me is how our troops are said to "defend our freedoms." They're defending and protecting everything except freedom, and they don't even realize it. That hasn't happened for around 200 years.

"Freedom is restricted only by the chains we place around ourselves. These chains can be unbound by the possession of an open-mind, the relinquishing of YOUR control over others, and the pursuit of happiness not just for yourself, but all others around you.

Be mindful, that all freedom is limited. In a finite world, no concept or 'way' can be unlimited, lest you impinge on one of the three principles of freedom that all free people share. Know yourself, pursue the knowledge of others - in knowing, you can begin to understand that all awareness is unique. In denying the uniqueness of those who are aware, you deny a finite world the only thing that is unlimited - Possibilities."

Sometime I wax lyrical. Feel free to quote me.

The Revenant.

Freedom is one of those words like Love. We throw the word around and use it so much we almost forget the true definition. like Love freedom is often used to sell us things, products or ideas and ways of life. Like love freedom comes with responsibility, and like love freedom often is not pure, it has a price and is not always easy to live with. In our minds and hearts we are truly free if we allow ourselves to be, the rest is up for debate...

Oh yes, and of course this is just my opinion!

my personal belief is a free society would only have two laws 1. cause no harm 2.cause no loss, with punishments that match the deed done.

i'm in the UK and i can't walk down the street with a sword at my hip because i MIGHT use it that isn't a free society i mean whatever happened to innocent til proven guilty
why can't nudist walk down the street without being arrested i may not want to see it and not agree with it but its their choice
why do people need car insurance or a licence if they crash they would get punished by the above laws e.t.c

so do i live in a free society, a resounding NO from me, yes we have choices but get punished if we make the wrong one that is not freedom for the individual or society

(P.S in my world we could walk into goverments and have a look at those juicy ufo secrets )

look forward to your opinions fellow ATS'ers

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by nightbringr

 

That was not my intention. My intention is for us to try to determine for ourselves what true freedom is (ensuring that we do not harm others in the process), and trying to achieve that level of freedom. The people who run the sites I mentioned in the middle of my OP, are living lives without borders; they live where they want, how they want. And they have the means and resources to support them. They are not against government, they are against oppressive, big government that wants to set rules and regulations in place for practically every part of our lives and are ready tax a huge amount our incomes in order to pay interest to some central bank or world banking agency.

They spend their time in places where is easy to set up businesses and to do business (for example), without having to suffer under unnecessary rules and regulations which either prohibit or limit the ability to open a small business. Western (bloated) governments it seems, don't really like small business or small business owners as we can see by way of their actions.

Again, all fair an understandable. However, i dont see how this is somthing everyone would accept. I for one, prefer to have a working government in place and pay my taxes. I know im contributing to the paving of our streets, infrastructure, heath care and social programs including welfare that helps those who cannot help themselves. I know my government is far from perfect, but its the best form in place today.

Im all for people who want to "rough it" and live off the land. Kudos to them! But do not press this on everyone. If someone wants to live out of a "mobile workplace" or what have you, thats fine, but if they are not paying taxes, i hope they are not plugging into power sources, using community water and other luxuries paid for by hard working, tax paying citizens.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
...
I will be the first to admit that I am not free:

I have a job (I can't do what I want to do when I'm on the job, and if I quit, almost all of my monthly income is gone.

What did you expect, that everything would be given to you free? Having a job, even one you don't like doesn't mean you are not free. First of all you can leave that job and get another even though you do have to take in consideration the created economic crisis, but you do have a choice. Second of all you even have the choice of living in the streets if you want. There are people who do so, many for mental problems, and others for other reasons including not wanting to get a job, so you do have the choice.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

I have to pay income taxes, for which I can face a prison sentence if I leave them unpaid (which ultimately go to paying rent for loans the government has previously made).

In any society there must be income taxes, even though they have gotten out of hand yes, but still in order for a society to function you have to pay some form of income taxes, otherwise who will maintain streets, street lights? How will you pay for government jobs that make sure society functions?

Having to pay taxes does not mean you are not free, but rather that you are a responsible person living within society. However, taxes are getting out of hand as more and more people, and government officials as well as tptb want you to depend more, and more on government.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

I have loans to pay back.

I have a credit card.

Did anyone force you to get loans, or get a credit card?

I am pretty sure that you had the choice to either get them, or not.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
I am subject to the laws of the country I live in (I can commit a crime without there being a victim involved, such as smoking marijuana [which I don't do, but just an example])

If you were living in a jungle you would be subject to the law of the jungle, where the fastest and strongest wins. If you look at animal groups they ALL live under certain rules/laws, and they even have leaders just as we humans do.

You are not living under an anarchist rule, if you were anyone and everyone would be doing anything and everything they wanted without any regards to what happens to others, and there are many people who think that they must live in an anarchy in order to be free, but that is not true, with freedom comes responsibility, the knowledge that OTHER PEOPLE ALSO HAVE FREEDOM and responsibilities. Laws exist so that other people can enjoy their lives in a society without harming others or taking away their rights.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

I can't just decide today that I'm going to leave my country and visit others for an indefinite time without consequence, and without having to request my employers to do so.

That's called responsibility, not to mention that if you want to you don't have to tell your employer that you are taking an extended vacation, but don't expect to get that job back when you get back from your vacation.

Originally posted by TheBandit795

I am not free, are you???

Here's a link that should put you to really think about whether you experience freedom or not.

It seems clear that you are confusing freedom with anarchy. With freedom comes responsibility, and freedom is not anarchy.

When you do anything you want without any regards to the freedom of others that is anarchy, and anarchy in a society brings chaos.

Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
reply to post by MrWendal

 

Originally posted by MrWendal
Than what I am paying State Taxes for? The Federal Government does not fix the roads, does not provide for the Fire Department or Local Police. That is paid for by your State Taxes. Not your Federal taxes. Also many Americans pay an "income tax" at the State AND Federal levels

State taxes are for local fire, and police, and small roads. Federal taxes pay for things like interstate highways, military, coast guard, intelligence agencies, and federal police like FBI, and other benefits that are at your disposal when you need them like disability benefits, and unemployment.

I think it is really dumb when people say "income tax doesn't pay for services, it pays the debt and goes straight to the bankers!"..... Well were did the debt come from? It came from paying for services...

It's like buying a TV with a credit card, and then claiming "my money doesn't go towards buying a TV, it goes straight to the credit card companies!".

edit on 20-1-2011 by gift0fpr0phecy because: (no reason given)

So true, isnt it? People constantly rage against the income tax especially, thinking it ONLY goes to paying off banks and such when it couldnt be farther from the truth.

Open your eyes my friends, the things that you take for granted are NOT free and they have a price.

Originally posted by Visiting ESB
reply to post by TheBandit795

 

What particularly disgusts me is how our troops are said to "defend our freedoms." They're defending and protecting everything except freedom, and they don't even realize it. That hasn't happened for around 200 years.

Oh i see. I guess you assume the Germans would have stopped their advance after taking Moscow, and they would have held hands and sang kumbaya with our troops? Or the Soviets would have stopped at Berlin had the Allies not been there to keep them in check?

The German army armed with the industrial power of Germany, the breadbasket of Ukraine and the manpower and oil (Baku), of the Soviet Union would have steamrolled the US eventually.

You can thank the many men and women who died for saving your freedom.