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Chemtrail believers have no idea!

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posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Over140
 

your pictures are interesting. I like the 3rd one. Here are your choices as I see them.
1, some entity is spraying something unknown on you all day, every day, for unknown reasons, and that entity is also spraying the family of every congressman, senator, mayor, and city engineer.
or...
2. Con trails form in the upper atmosphere much more in winter time and much more in high airplane traffic areas during winter time.
Now, given those two choices, which do you think is more likely?

The "scientific" theory of OCCAM'S RAZOR suggests that of all possibilities, the simplest explanation is more likely to be the truth. However, Occam's Razor, while somewhat valid, has been used in conditioning the average citizen to believe in *simplicity.* Occam's Razor does not work well when applied to, for example, a criminal investigation. While Occam's Razor may have a higher degree of validity in a laboratory experiment, it loses most of its meaning in the "real" world, where countless factors and complications render it almost meaningless. ---Especially when applied to an investigation. Here's why:

Back in the 1950s, when the government was actively spraying biological agents and other toxic substances over US population centers (i.e. big cities), people did develop some bad symptoms. Now, looking at it, there were at least two possibilities...
1. The US was conducting a secret spraying program to test toxic agents over their city, or...
2. That person caught a bad bug, or had a disease in his/her genetic makup.

Well, Occam's Razor points out that option 1 is really complicated and outrageous, therefore, option 2 is the "truth." In this 100% factual example, Occam's Razor has no meaning except to make the affected person believe that it's a simple cold gone bad (or lethal), when in reality, option 1 is the truth.

Occam's Razor also falls apart in a criminal investigation when "the facts" are obviously pointing towards a particular person and that person is convicted of rape/murder/whatever. Only later, with luck and persistence, is that person's innocence proven after another look is taken into the case. I won't cite specific examples of this because they're on the news all the time. The "truth" turned out to me more complicated that the prosecutor, judge and jury took time to explore (most of us have been conditioned to "Occam's Razor).

Again, I keep coming across a person stating that chemtrail "believers" *believe* that we are being sprayed 24/7 every day every hour. While some few might, most do not. Stating that chemtrails must be sprayed 24/7 or nothing is over-simplifying the situation (Occam's Razor, again). Why must it be "sprayed 24/7 all day every day" or "no chemtrail spraying at all?" It does not. Any airborne agents may be sprayed in any quantity needed at any time needed for any duration of time, depending on the whims and/or plans of the people responsible for the spraying.

Proof? No 100% proof, but there is LIKELINESS. It is very *likely* spraying is occurring based on historical facts. In the last six years, a new kind of disease has spread. It is called Morgellon's disease. Essentially, fibers of various colors sprout from rashes on people's skin. It is a very painful condition and completely unexplained by science (in fact, very few researches are looking into this). It is worth a google. Has the spraying of aerially dispersed toxins caused symptoms in our population?

I'll cite the example stated above, concerning the 1950s - 1970s spraying of toxins over US population centers. Occam's Razor would answer the question with a big NO. However, we have explored the validity of Occam's Razor beyond the laboratory, and so far it has not held up so well. In fact, when people start employing Occam's Razor to real world situations, be wary. In the REAL WORLD it is better to err on the side of precedence (past events proving that it has happened before and is likely to happen again). When strange symptoms in the population start sprouting up, it could be caused by government (or shadow government) spraying.




posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by GhostLancer
 


the all day every day thing comes from the pictures of con trail that is purported as chemtrails. Have you seen them? Perhaps a quick "search" might bring this into perspective for you.

I think you may not have researched my problem quite enough. It's not that I believe that nothing has ever been sprayed on an unsuspecting populace. It's that every fluffy line in the sky is a chemtrail. And that any government spraying would even be seen as a chemtrail.

I go back to a very basic argument that spraying "bad juice" at 35,000 feet would be a complete waste of bad juice since it's landfall would be impossible to calculate. Hell, when I worked on C-130's we had a device called a DVS. A Doppler Velocity Sensor. It's job was to calculate wind drift in order to drop troops at the right time. It worked most of the time. Ask any ranger or airborne soldier if it worked ALL the time. He may limp over to you and smack you. Point being, If we cannot calculate wind drift of a 200 pound item from 1000 feet, how on God's green earth are we going to calculate microscopic particles at 35,000 feet? The quick answer is, we aren't.

Any spraying to put "bad juice" on people was done at a very low altitude and way below any contrail forming weather. So that entire argument is a straw man argument.

Geo-engineering is an idea. As of right now, it's just as real as my Bigfoot fences.



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Sorry, could have IM'd on this, but it was buried in the paragraph...and deserves to be singled out, just because it is so funny...made me spit up coffee!! (oh, and thanks...I think...)



Ask any ranger or airborne soldier if it worked ALL the time. He may limp over to you and smack you.


Comedy gold, man!!
edit on 23 January 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by GhostLancer
 


the all day every day thing comes from the pictures of con trail that is purported as chemtrails. Have you seen them? Perhaps a quick "search" might bring this into perspective for you.

I think you may not have researched my problem quite enough. It's not that I believe that nothing has ever been sprayed on an unsuspecting populace. It's that every fluffy line in the sky is a chemtrail. And that any government spraying would even be seen as a chemtrail.

I go back to a very basic argument that spraying "bad juice" at 35,000 feet would be a complete waste of bad juice since it's landfall would be impossible to calculate. Hell, when I worked on C-130's we had a device called a DVS. A Doppler Velocity Sensor. It's job was to calculate wind drift in order to drop troops at the right time. It worked most of the time. Ask any ranger or airborne soldier if it worked ALL the time. He may limp over to you and smack you. Point being, If we cannot calculate wind drift of a 200 pound item from 1000 feet, how on God's green earth are we going to calculate microscopic particles at 35,000 feet? The quick answer is, we aren't.

Any spraying to put "bad juice" on people was done at a very low altitude and way below any contrail forming weather. So that entire argument is a straw man argument.

Geo-engineering is an idea. As of right now, it's just as real as my Bigfoot fences.


Some smokejumpers would have some laughs too at the chemmies..we would drop them from 3000 AGL, but then drop their cargo from much lower, sometimes around 200 ft. Even then..there is drift.



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 03:12 PM
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Interesting bits from www.weathermodification.com


Aerial cloud seeding is the process of delivering a seeding agent by aircraft - either at the cloud base or cloud top. Top seeding allows for direct injection of the seeding agent into the supercooled cloud top. Base seeding is the release of the seeding agent in the updraft of a cloud base.


Translation: seeding agent=chemicals=chemtrails


Weather Modification, Inc., uses several models of aircraft in our own operations, although we can adapt our equipment to virtually any type of aircraft for specific customer needs. Weather Modification, Inc., has the following aircraft types in service and available at this time...If you operate your own aviation fleet, we can provide custom-modified aircraft to match your specific mission requirements - or we can modify your existing aircraft to perform the operations required.


As in: we can retrofit any type of plane we want (despite the debunkers saying that these things don't exist.) The in service part indicates that it is an active program.

Here's a list of active projects:


Antigua Antigua Cloud Seeding Project Argentina Province of Mendoza Ministry of Economy Australia Queensland Environmental Protection Agency Burkina Faso Program SAAGA Canada Alberta Hail Suppression Project British Colombia Ministry of Forest British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority Saskatchewan National Hydrology Research Agency Greece Greek National Hail Suppression Program (ELGA) Hellenic Navy Supply Center India Andhra Pradesh Rainfall Enhancement Project Prakalpa Varsha - Maharashtra Rainfall Enhancement Project Project Varuna - Karnataka Rainfall Enhancement Project Indonesia BPPT Weather Modification Program Jordan Arab Automated Systems Heshamite Kingdom of Jordan Mali Programme Sanji - Mali Mexico Precipitation for Augmentation of Rain in Coahuila (PARC) Morocco Programme Al-Ghait Saudi Arabia Program for Cloud Physics Research and Rain Enhancement in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia World Meteorological Organization in cooperation with SAU/WMO/FIT Rain Enhancement Project Spain Canary Islands - AIRAO Incorporated Thailand Bureau of Royal Rainmaking and Agricultural Aviation (BRRAA) Turkey ISKI Rain Enhancement Program Petkim Petrokimya Holding, A.S. Rain Enhancement Program United Arab Emirates U.A.E. Rain Enhancement Program U.A.E. Rainfall Enhancement and Air Chemistry Studies - DWRS United States Aeromet, Inc. (L-3 Communications) - U.S Department of Defense BAMEX - Bow Echo and Mesoscale Convective Vortex Experiment CALIPSO - CloudSat Validation Experiment Delaware Department of Agriculture Cloud Seeding Program Edwards Aquifer Authority Federal Aviation Administration - Great Lakes Division Gratiot Weather Modification Project Illinois Weather Modification Projects National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration - National Hurricane Center Naval Surface Warfare Center Nevada State Cloud Seeding Program New Mexico BLAST (Burst Light and Stratus Transmission) Project North Dakota Cloud Modification Project (NDCMP) North Dakota Thunderstorm Project - North Dakota Atmospheric Resource Board North Dakota Tracer Experiment - North Dakota Atmospheric Resource Board Northeast Sampling Program - Sonoma Technology, Inc. NSF/NCAR ICE-L Field Campaign Oklahoma Weather Modification Project (OWMP) Panhandle Groundwater Conservation District Rainfall Enhancement Program Santa Barbara County Water Agency Sonoma Technology, Inc. Stanislaus Weather Modification Program State of South Dakota - Department of Natural Resources Division of Weather Modification Texas Central High Plains Rainfall Enhancement Program Texas Experiment in Augmenting Rainfall through Cloud Seeding (TEXARC) Texas Weather Modification Program The University of North Dakota - US Environmental Protection Agency University of Arizona - National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Upper American River Cloud Seeding Project Upper Payette River Basin Cloud Seeding Program Upper Tuolumne River Weather Modification Program Utah Division of Water Resources Utah Division of Water Resources West Central Texas Council of Governments Rainfall Enhancement Program Western Dakota Water Development District - Black Hills Council of Local Government Wyoming Weather Modification Pilot Program


So, okay, granted, cloud seeding in itself isn't proof of some chemtrail conspiracy, but it at least proves that the technology to spray something in the air at high altitude other than condensation trails from jets exists and is being used in many countries around the world.



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by coyotepoet
 


You haven't been paying attention??

NO one EVER denied "cloud seeding"! And, no...."seeding" is NOT equal to "chem"-trails.

The people who 'cry wolf' about "chem"-trails are seeing normal contrails, at altitudes where commercial jets typically cruise. Rain clouds NEVER form at those altitudes! Period. Take some lessons in meteorology, if you don't understand yet.

Also, check the very link you just used. LOOK at what they say about the altitudes they fly at, for their operations.

And, NO!!! They cannot 'modify" just any airplane to that purpose.....learning more about airplanes is tough, I know....but you will have to try.



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by coyotepoet
 


Good afternoon coyotepoet,

You made the comment:




Translation: seeding agent=chemicals=chemtrails


Im sorry, but I believe your translator is broken.

Cloud seeding does NOT equal "chemtrails", no matter how much faith you have in the "chemtrail' belief.

Please take a look at the aircraft section from the link you provided.

A Fleet Built for Success



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Originally posted by network dude
I have been amazed at the varying answers I get when asking about chemtrails. These people cannot agree on anything. I guess since science seems to be on the side of sanity and that the lines in the sky are called contrails, it stands to reason that the story might change a bit from person to person.


Your OP doesn't even really state any evidence one way or another about Chemtrail vs Persistent Contrail, it is virtually 100% commentary on Chemtrail researchers themselves.

Why did you start a topic with the purpose of directly insulting Chemtrail researchers with crude stereotypes?

Since you're so adamantly sure that science has debunked Chemtrails, then you can go ahead and explain why in my area...only KC-135's leave them. You can also explain how these contrails persist in dry, hot (relatively) cloudless Summer skies. BTW, in my area they fly under the jetstream to preserve fuel. Since you're so familiar with the science that debunks Chemtrail, then you shouldn't need any of this explained.

Let the OP answer this for himself please. He's so up on the science, then he can demonstrate his level of knowledge concerning the matter.



For those who don't know about this myth, here is how it goes: If a line left behind a plane lasts for longer than 20 minutes, it's a chemtrail. It if dissipates before the 20 minute mark, it's a contrail.


This is the first time I've ever seen this specific time claim.

I think you either made this up (lie), or you are taking something a single person, or a small group said, and you are trying to sell it as a "myth" that Chemtrail researchers live by. (stereotype)

Either way, it paints you in a negative light. Neither of these attributes contribute positively to science.



But when faced with facts about weather conditions, this theory falls apart. Once that is gone, exactly what is left of this theory?


First it's a "myth", now it's a "theory". What's next? You gonna claim it's Chemtrail Gospel, that all Chemtrail researchers follow without fail? That would be in keeping with your demonstrated willingness to stereotype and/or lie about what Chemtrail researchers really believe. The funny thing is, you say "these people" can't agree with each other, but we can all somehow agree to this myth you fabricated.

BTW, how does this myth/theory that you invented, or are blowing out proportion, get proven wrong?
We just supposed to take your word for it?
Why don't you share the exact science that proves it wrong?
Oh, what a tangled web we weave.



I have asked countless numbers of people who believe in this myth to share their views with me. Some say that it happens in every major city in the world. I have even been told of the exact year this phenomenon started. Unfortunately, that date changes from person to person. By 10-15 years. The amount of spraying varies from almost every day in every major city, to only sometimes.


What myth? Your made up time table fantasy?
I've been studying the matter since the early-90's. Again, I've NEVER seen anyone get so specific as to list the time table you are dishonestly attributing to Chemtrail researchers at large.

What some people say on some subject doesn't prove things one way or another.

People can go to an event that happened no further back than a week and give different recollections about what happened. Doesn't prove things one way or another.

Two Chefs can disagree about the way to cook a perfect Omelet, doesn't mean that Omelets are a myth.

Two people giving different accounts of what they believe to be Chemtrails, doesn't prove that Chemtrail are a myth...it doesn't prove them real, but it doesn't prove them a myth.



What do they do? That seems to be the million dollar question. nobody can pinpoint any affects. Do they cause mass illness? nope, not that anyone can verify. Do they kill people? nope, not that anyone can verify. Are they to combat global warming? well, I think we should first agree if global warming is man made, or a natural cycle before we try to adjust mother nature. Is that the reason they exist? some might say so. some may not.


This paragraph proves you haven't really done any serious research into Chemtrails, and definitely not enough to debunk them. You are a dilettante

People have collected samples of the stuff that has made it to the ground, and had it analyzed. Typically there will be extremely high amounts of Barium and Aluminum.

You are simply not in a position to certify what has been verified or not.



There is no uniformity with this conspiracy. Nobody seems to be able to agree on anything other then someone must be hiding something. When I look up the word paranoid, it's definition sounds eerily familiar.


There is no uniformity regarding the conditions for Persistent CONtrails. Ask two meteorologists why a contrail persist, you will get two different answers. Just like asking any two humans about anything at all.

Oh look, you know how to stereotypically imply that all Chemtrail researchers are paranoid.

Do you also think that all Asians are good at math, and all Blacks are good at sports?



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by Byteman

Your OP doesn't even really state any evidence one way or another about Chemtrail vs Persistent Contrail, it is virtually 100% commentary on Chemtrail researchers themselves.

Sorry you didn't get a chance to digest the information before your knee jerked. If you had actually read the OP instead of responded to specific points, you would understand exactly what I was trying to say. That the whole "chemtrail" theory is so confusing because of the multiple reasonings and "proofs" that seem to come into play that any reasonable person would simply call you paranoid and walk away laughing. But lets continue with your tirade.


Why did you start a topic with the purpose of directly insulting Chemtrail researchers with crude stereotypes?

Since you're so adamantly sure that science has debunked Chemtrails, then you can go ahead and explain why in my area...only KC-135's leave them.

You must be an amazing person. I feel very safe in saying that you should hide for fear of being abducted by our military to be used as a spotter of all things airborne. If you can spot a KC-135 as opposed to a DC-9 or a KC-10 at altitude, you are one of a select few with perfect eyesight. Way past 20/20. Do you do this without binoculars? Plane old eyesight? Just friggin WOW! Amazing to say the least.


You can also explain how these contrails persist in dry, hot (relatively) cloudless Summer skies.

I hate to keep breaking this up, but your assertions make it so relevant, that I have to.
Are you aware that the temperature and humidity at 20-30K feet is just a tiny bit different than at ground level? If not, I suggest a hot air balloon ride in July wearing only shorts and a t-shirt. Let me know how that goes.


BTW, in my area they fly under the jetstream to preserve fuel. Since you're so familiar with the science that debunks Chemtrail, then you shouldn't need any of this explained.

At what altitude is the jet stream at this moment? How about three weeks ago? Your weather skills are just as sharp as your eyeballs are.


Let the OP answer this for himself please. He's so up on the science, then he can demonstrate his level of knowledge concerning the matter.

Oh, thanks for letting me speak directly to you. It means the world to me.




This is the first time I've ever seen this specific time claim.

I think you either made this up (lie), or you are taking something a single person, or a small group said, and you are trying to sell it as a "myth" that Chemtrail researchers live by. (stereotype)

Try using the search function at the upper right of the screen. Type "chemtrails" and see what you fan find about the 20 minute barrier. I am willing to concede whatever time frame you feel is significant with regards to contrails being misidentified as chemtrails.



Either way, it paints you in a negative light. Neither of these attributes contribute positively to science.


I chose to let science contribute and I just post the "science" part. If it puts me in a bad light, I can take it.


First it's a "myth", now it's a "theory". What's next? You gonna claim it's Chemtrail Gospel, that all Chemtrail researchers follow without fail? That would be in keeping with your demonstrated willingness to stereotype and/or lie about what Chemtrail researchers really believe. The funny thing is, you say "these people" can't agree with each other, but we can all somehow agree to this myth you fabricated.

BTW, how does this myth/theory that you invented, or are blowing out proportion, get proven wrong?
We just supposed to take your word for it?
Why don't you share the exact science that proves it wrong?
Oh, what a tangled web we weave.


I haven't invented the myth of chemtrails. I am only here so discuss why it's a myth. You can try to bring the science that proves your side into this discussion at any time. I'll be right here.


What myth? Your made up time table fantasy?
I've been studying the matter since the early-90's. Again, I've NEVER seen anyone get so specific as to list the time table you are dishonestly attributing to Chemtrail researchers at large.

OK, fair enough. Please describe to me how anyone can identify a chemtrail by sight. again, I'll be right here.





People have collected samples of the stuff that has made it to the ground, and had it analyzed. Typically there will be extremely high amounts of Barium and Aluminum.

and that is great. Fantastic in fact. I love samples. Are you sure they came from aircraft and not a coal fired power plant? Oh, didn't think so. Nevermind.


You are simply not in a position to certify what has been verified or not.


In this case, you are 100% correct. But then again, are you?


There is no uniformity regarding the conditions for Persistent CONtrails. Ask two meteorologists why a contrail persist, you will get two different answers. Just like asking any two humans about anything at all.

OK, time to see how good you are. I know of one meteorologist on this very site. You bring me any two verifiable meteorologists who will have different answers as to why contrails might persist. Any two. (verifiable)


Oh look, you know how to stereotypically imply that all Chemtrail researchers are paranoid.

Do you also think that all Asians are good at math, and all Blacks are good at sports?

the race card. really? so I guess you are out of arguments huh?



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 09:04 PM
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As in: we can retrofit any type of plane we want (despite the debunkers saying that these things don't exist.) The in service part indicates that it is an active program. Here's a list of active projects:


Wow....just wow.

No one has ever said airplanes have not been modified for cloud seeding. That is a strawman argument you are making, because time and time again, we have tried to argue the reality of cloud seeding.

And, you did not seem to bring up those kinds of planes used by companies like that. Care to link what kinds of planes that WMI uses - small piston engine Piper Senecas, Cessna 340s, and a smaller number of Beech King Airs and Piper Cheyennes. All small planes..and none that can carry some huge load, and none that can even get to contrailing altitudes either. Not any evidence of these giant large sekrit chemplanes.

But nice try... a company like that has 4-5 planes even on standby all winter for cloud seeding projects, and those planes are located at airports near those project sites.

and by listing projects, you are debunking chemtrail lore, because those are individual small projects in a limited area, in a specific place. Those are also not all on at the same time ongoing, but ones they have had over their history as a company. So when chemmies claim planes crisscrossing the entire sky overhead, in a place that is not even in a project area, then what are we to think? These are small projects in a geographically limited area, that have seeding going on during precipitation events of specific conditions.


edit on 23-1-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-1-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by GhostLancer
 

the all day every day thing comes from the pictures of con trail that is purported as chemtrails. Have you seen them? Perhaps a quick "search" might bring this into perspective for you.

That there are hundreds if not thousands of photos of contrails or chemtrails really proves nothing. Those who are familiar with psychological operations programs know that one of the best ways to hide the truth is to surround it with dozens or hundreds of variations of the truth (and dozens or hundreds of completely out-there whacko variations). This is called the spread of disinformation, which soon leads to the spread of misinformation. DISinformation is the deliberate spreading of false/distorted information in order to hide the truth is a sea of confusion and lies. MISinformation is the unintentional spreading of false/distorted information for whatever reason. Once the truth is flooded by a sea of variations, distortions and falsehoods, people don't know what to believe, and other people start spreading the false information without even being aware of it.

So, the fact that there are so many photos out there as to give the OP or anyone cause to believe that "chemtrail believers" are saying we're getting sprayed 24/7 365 days a year does not allow for them or anyone to put words into others' mouths, those words being "We're getting sprayed 24/7 365." ---Or something to that effect. If the chemtrail phenomena were in fact true, I would imagine that valid photos and videos of chemtrails would be surrounded by countless photos that show regular clouds, foggy traffic jams, Marylin Monroe having steam lift her dress, and Elvis skydiving naked from a C-130.


Originally posted by network dude
I think you may not have researched my problem quite enough.

With that kind of statement, I bet it would be fair to say that *no one* has researched your problem quite enough.


Originally posted by network dude
It's not that I believe that nothing has ever been sprayed on an unsuspecting populace. It's that every fluffy line in the sky is a chemtrail. And that any government spraying would even be seen as a chemtrail.

Again, "every fluffy line is the sky is a chemtrail..." Sure, there are some folks out there who believe that every fluffy line might be a chemtrail, but they are not indicative of the whole. That just seems to be the impression that the OP and perhaps some others are getting. However, that is not the case. VALID arguments for chemtrails do not necessarily suggest the 24/7 365 spraying.


Originally posted by network dude
I go back to a very basic argument that spraying "bad juice" at 35,000 feet would be a complete waste of bad juice since it's landfall would be impossible to calculate. Hell, when I worked on C-130's we had a device called a DVS. A Doppler Velocity Sensor. It's job was to calculate wind drift in order to drop troops at the right time. It worked most of the time. Ask any ranger or airborne soldier if it worked ALL the time. He may limp over to you and smack you. Point being, If we cannot calculate wind drift of a 200 pound item from 1000 feet, how on God's green earth are we going to calculate microscopic particles at 35,000 feet? The quick answer is, we aren't.

The quick answer: Occam's Razor has once again conditioned many of us to jump to conclusions without examining what modern technology is and is not capable of. "Impossible to calculate" the landfall of bad juice. While having a 100% accuracy is probably highly unlikely, having *enough* of an accuracy, even at 50%, might be worthwhile. NOAA has been conducting all sorts of experiements over the last 20 years involving hurricanes, wind patterns, weather systems and climatic conditions. Perhaps they have gained *some* knowledge from all of that research? And that is only pointing out NOAA. Who knows how many universities, colleges, and government think-tanks (like JASON and DAARPA) have conducted studies. They employ the brightest minds in our country. So, if ONE PERSON thinks a problem is impossible, keep in mind that our government pays millions of dollars to individuals who have extremely high and imaginative intellects to conduct all manner of research. For a layperson to state that something is impossible simply because he or she *believes* it to be, it's jumping to conclusions. For hundreds of years people have believed this or that was impossible... until it was done, like heavier-than-air flight. These professional scientists have much, much more sophisticated computers and equipment than is issued to C-130 crews (DVS). If you aren't familiar with the group known as "JASON" or "The Jasons," it will be eye-opening if/when you decide to google.


Originally posted by network dude
Any spraying to put "bad juice" on people was done at a very low altitude and way below any contrail forming weather. So that entire argument is a straw man argument.

Actually, there is no solid proof as to the altitude of ALL of the spraying. Some might have been at low altitudes. Others might have been from very high. Would one honestly expect "inept" scientists, researchers, pilots and program directors involved in spraying operations to commence spraying when weather conditions would scatter the "bad juice' to the four corners of the Earth? I bet they would plan it for the PERFECT time, like a shuttle launch, when the weather conditions were just right. And they would have back-up measures, like more aircraft on stand-by, alternate routes to account for unexpected wind, and maybe even employ "out of the box" techniques like using the HAARP array to somehow calm the weather in a region during a spraying operation. I'm not a scientist on their team, of course, and I came up with those options in about four seconds. Again, over-simplifying the argument does make it easier to win, but when we really look at the particulars, it's not so "impossible."


Originally posted by network dude
Geo-engineering is an idea. As of right now, it's just as real as my Bigfoot fences.

I really have no idea what a Bigfoot fence is. LOL



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 10:23 PM
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Again, "every fluffy line is the sky is a chemtrail..." Sure, there are some folks out there who believe that every fluffy line might be a chemtrail, but they are not indicative of the whole. That just seems to be the impression that the OP and perhaps some others are getting. However, that is not the case. VALID arguments for chemtrails do not necessarily suggest the 24/7 365 spraying.


Thats actually exactly what most every chemtrail site and chemtrail youtube video says exactly, that anything other than a short lasting skinny contrail, is a chemtrail. Illustrating yet again, every chemtrailer has their own beliefs...

And you may check into how many airplanes NOAA has too, it sure is not very many at all.

I have even flown on meteorological research projects myself, and thats not evidence of chemtrails either


edit on 23-1-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-1-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 10:55 PM
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So, okay, granted, cloud seeding in itself isn't proof of some chemtrail conspiracy, but it at least proves that the technology to spray something in the air at high altitude other than condensation trails from jets exists and is being used in many countries around the world.



I'll go ahead and admit I haven't read the replies to your post. Not out of disrespect for those who posted it, but I wanted to give information based on my own experience without bias. Volatile and dangerous chemicals are, as a general rule of thumb, short lived. I don't know why, I'm not a chemist by trade, but I do know that it takes a huge amount of engineering to get a toxic or harmful chemical to survive very long in an open environment. Cloud seeding is an entirely different concept, not only in the aspect that it doesn't involve biological entities, but also because it doesn't involve agents hitting the ground. Both of these are instrumental to the chemtrail conspiracy theory, and I have not personally seen evidence of this happening in the same way that chemtrail conspiracy theories propose they are happening.



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 11:10 PM
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There actually have been tests to see how much hits the ground. The amount is so undetectable, so they have to put more detectable "tracers" in it, to actually see if a certain area maybe actually had any. That kinda screws with the whole silver iodide is gonna poison us all thing that a couple people here seem to be fixated on.



posted on Jan, 23 2011 @ 11:31 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Listen, Strictly for consideration and contemplation, I suggest you watch the film, "What In The World Are They Spraying". The Man who made film presents evidence of alien elements entering eco-systems. Alien as in they weren't there before, at least at the amount they are now. He takes water samples and dirt samples and compares them to records taken from past samples. as well as testaments from farmers who suspect something weird and confronting politicians who walk away or deny knowing about it, when he says "chemtrail" . Very interesting i must say.

What ever they are spraying, if they are spraying, may or may not be designed to depopulate the planet. And they may or may not be designed to make farming and raising your own food impossible.

But like you said in the OP. contrails dissolve, chemtrails spread out. what ever it is, its not normal
edit on 23-1-2011 by Dissent because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2011 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by network dude
 



Originally posted by network dude
Sorry you didn't get a chance to digest the information before your knee jerked. If you had actually read the OP instead of responded to specific points, you would understand exactly what I was trying to say. That the whole "chemtrail" theory is so confusing because of the multiple reasonings and "proofs" that seem to come into play that any reasonable person would simply call you paranoid and walk away laughing. But lets continue with your tirade.


I don't know what you think your accomplishing by claiming I didn't read the whole thing. I quoted ALL of it, and provided a response to each section. Sounds like you don't remember the content of your own OP.

Why don't you go ahead and quote the part of your OP I failed to address?

You posted NOTHING that indicated your interest in learning some kind of "truth" about chemtrails.

Your whole OP is a tirade. How would you know that though, you forgot your own OP.


Originally posted by network dude
You must be an amazing person. I feel very safe in saying that you should hide for fear of being abducted by our military to be used as a spotter of all things airborne. If you can spot a KC-135 as opposed to a DC-9 or a KC-10 at altitude, you are one of a select few with perfect eyesight. Way past 20/20. Do you do this without binoculars? Plane old eyesight? Just friggin WOW! Amazing to say the least.


Wow, childish hyperbole on top of a stereotypical insult-fest against Chemtrail researchers.
I gave plenty of clues as to how high planes in my area are flying (low), that you completely failed to understand.

It's funny how you think someone could confuse a commercially colored DC-10 with a matte-gray KC-135. It's also funny how you think someone could confuse a twin-engine craft, with a quad-engine craft. Not that it matters, the Air Force base I live within 20 miles of only hosts KC-135's.

I actually have 20/10 vision, and yes it is "perfect" as much as that word can be applied to anything Human. So your attempt at sarcasm is pretty much a complete failure. It's no problem to spot a plane flying under the jetstream or cloud deck, or do other things like read micro-print without magnification. I also happen to lack any near or far-sightedness, so I can use my vision at pretty much any distance. Like splitting Alcor and Mizar visually, or extracting a splinter from my finger.



I hate to keep breaking this up, but your assertions make it so relevant, that I have to. Are you aware that the temperature and humidity at 20-30K feet is just a tiny bit different than at ground level? If not, I suggest a hot air balloon ride in July wearing only shorts and a t-shirt. Let me know how that goes.


Oh, this failure of logical thought processes again.

How would a plane be able to create a Persistent CONtrail, if all of nature cannot summon one single cloud?

How would a plane be able to create a persistent CONtrail below the cloud deck?

How would a plane be able to create a persistent CONtrail at a low enough altitude that you can easily make out the fine details on the business end of the fuel boom?

Yes, temperature fluctuates with altitude. It also fluctuates with seasons, for instance in the Summer season it gets warmer and drier.

Did I mention fly under the jetstream? Where it's warmer and drier in the Summer. Oh, look...I did and you forgot to take that into account.

It's funny how you try and insult my knowledge of basic atmospheric facts, but you can't even put two and two together when tasked with them.



Originally posted by network dude At what altitude is the jet stream at this moment? How about three weeks ago? Your weather skills are just as sharp as your eyeballs are.



Yep, it sure is variable. I never said it wasn't. Too bad for you and your insult attempts.

If you knew anything about aircraft and the jetstream, you'd know that they must fly under it when traveling west...to preserve fuel. You know, low altitude flying. Oh, wait...you don't know. Proven by your sarcastic jibe at my eyesight.

It's funny how you claim that your trying to "[figure out chemtrails]" but your attitude is that of an accuser whose made up their mind against Chemtrails and those who think they are real. Apparently your "[figure out chemtrails]" act, is just that...an act.


Originally posted by network dude Oh, thanks for letting me speak directly to you. It means the world to me.


I never said anything that indicated that you need permission to address my posts, I asked others to let you answer for yourself.

Is this all you have? Lies, and putting words in my mouth?



Originally posted by network dude Try using the search function at the upper right of the screen. Type "chemtrails" and see what you fan find about the 20 minute barrier. I am willing to concede whatever time frame you feel is significant with regards to contrails being misidentified as chemtrails.


Do your homework for you? No thanks.

You're the one claiming that it's some huge chemtrail myth that this is true. You can go ahead and attempt to prove it. You didn't though, you tried to pass the buck. That would seem to indicate you can't prove this is a commonly believed and propagated chemtrail "myth", instead of something a limited number of people are saying, and you're trying to pass of as a general consensus.

There is no mis-identification, just your failure to understand the differences between a Persistent CONtrail, and a CHEMtrail, and your failure to understand when Persistent CONtrails should not form.


Originally posted by network dude I chose to let science contribute and I just post the "science" part. If it puts me in a bad light, I can take it.



Submitting "myths" and then casting stereotypes isn't "[posting science]". Your willingness to contribute stereotypes or outright make up claims is what paints you in a bad light. You have to actually post science, before you can be cast in a bad light concerning it.


Originally posted by network dude
I haven't invented the myth of chemtrails. I am only here so discuss why it's a myth. You can try to bring the science that proves your side into this discussion at any time. I'll be right here.


Where did I say you invented the myth of Chemtrails?
Oh nowhere, that's where. Here's you making up fake lies again to cast at me. AGAIN.

I said you either invented this 20 minute time limit myth (not chemtrail in total), or are trying to attribute it to chemtrail researchers at large as a stereotype. Try and keep up now.

Bring the science? No need, I'll keep it simple.

Why are only KC-135's leaving these trails?

If your answer is another sarcastic, ignorant jibe against my ability to identify an airplane. Feel free to keep it to yourself, I already have at least one of those from you.


Originally posted by network dude
OK, fair enough. Please describe to me how anyone can identify a chemtrail by sight. again, I'll be right here.


This is irrelevant to the portion of post you are addressing here. I commented on never seeing this alleged big chemtrail myth about 20 minute limits before.

You can identify a chemtrail by sight easily. It will be a persistent trail, where a persistent trail shouldn't be.

I wonder why you couldn't put that together, I'm all but screaming it in my post. Perhaps if you devoted more of your energy towards thinking about what people say, instead of thinking of ways to sarcastically insult them, and create topics insulting whole segments of people, you might have figured that out.


Originally posted by network dude
and that is great. Fantastic in fact. I love samples. Are you sure they came from aircraft and not a coal fired power plant? Oh, didn't think so. Nevermind.


Bad move. I can make the same flawed argument.

How do you know all meteorologists haven't been threatened or bribed in to silence by the government?
Oh, you can't know. Nevermind.


Originally posted by network dude
In this case, you are 100% correct. But then again, are you?


I'm not the one making whole topics about it, and passing myself off as some kind of pseudo-authority like you did in your OP.

"Chemtrail believers have no idea!"

That's your topic title right?


Originally posted by network dude
OK, time to see how good you are. I know of one meteorologist on this very site. You bring me any two verifiable meteorologists who will have different answers as to why contrails might persist. Any two. (verifiable)


Oh yeah?
So he posted his real name and credentials?
A scan of his degree perhaps?

BTW, why would I need to bring two meteorologists?

It would only take me bringing one, and that one saying something even slightly different than yours, for my point to be correct. That point being, that no TWO Humans will ever communicate something in the exact same way.

1+2 doesn't = 2

I wonder why you don't know that.

Anyways...
To put it as simply as possible, it's like the grape-vine effect.

But why confuse things with scientific testimony? It would be virtually useless since you've shown an inability (or unwillingness) to use reasoning skills when given input to work with.

Why are only KC-135's leaving these trails?

It's as PLANE and simple as that.


Originally posted by network dude
the race card. really? so I guess you are out of arguments huh?


I'm just creatively pointing out your willingness to stereotype, and it's similarity to racism.
Sounds like you can't stand being "put in a bad light" anymore. But you said you could earlier.

Whether I'm out of arguments or not doesn't matter. You haven't/can't even properly address the ones I have listed. All your doing is asking for a bigger mouthful than you can handle.

Anyways...this will probably be my last post in this topic. I try and be direct with people, good or bad opinion, but at least I try (sometimes fail) to not hide it within sarcasm or crude wordplay. I say it direct, I think you are this or that, wrong about this or that, right about his or that, doing this or that. You could have at least afforded me that much, but you obviously value sly sarcastic insults, lying, and putting words in peoples mouths over directly saying your piece.

No thanks.



posted on Jan, 24 2011 @ 12:22 AM
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Who says only KC-135s are leaving trails? Do you actually have proof of this...

And if you live within 20 miles of a base with tankers, they will not be making trails near you, since they would not be high enough yet..




edit on 24-1-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 24 2011 @ 02:03 AM
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reply to post by firepilot
 




Who says only KC-135s are leaving trails? Do you actually have proof of this...


KC-135's are the only plane I have seen in the area leaving persistent tails, and the Air Force base I live near is also right next to an international airport...our skies are constantly busy and still only KC-135's leave these trails. Even through several recent record-low temperature and high-snow winters.

That means cold AND wet, perfect for persistent contrails and yet only the KC-135's leave the Persistent trails.

In fact, I have NEVER seen a plane of any kind make a trail that persisted longer than 20 or 30 seconds or so, until seeing these KC-135's.

Since any proof I submit could invariably be "photoshopped" or whatever...what would be the point?
Even if I had a smoking gun picture or video, someone would invariably call it a fake.

Ultimately the only proof you or anyone would accept as INDISPUTABLY real is seeing it with your own eyes.



And if you live within 20 miles of a base with tankers, they will not be making trails near you, since they would not be high enough yet..


What exactly is preventing these planes from flying, ascending, and then circling back to cover the area that surrounds their base?

Nothing, that's what.



posted on Jan, 24 2011 @ 06:11 AM
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Originally posted by Byteman
Why are only KC-135's leaving these trails?


There is no way on earth that only KC-135's are leaving trails in your sky. You are incorrect, wrong, not understanding things, not seeing things correctly.

Do you know what it takes to make a contrail? Do you have the unique ability to determine weather a plane is flying at 22,000 feet or 28,000 feet? In conditions where contrails are possible, any type of plane flying at that altitude, in those conditions, will leave a trail. If the plane has 2 engines, it will be a little less of a trail than a 4 engine plane.

You have introduced a completely new aspect to the fantasy that is chemtrails. As I said, you didn't comprehend the OP so this part will be lost on you. But the whole theory/fantasy has so many different people's ideas to it, that nobody can come to any kind of agreement to determine what if anything is being sprayed. According to you, it's only people who live near a KC-135 base. That is not consistent with other stories.

A contrail that lasts longer than ______ is a chemtrail. Fill in the blank.



posted on Jan, 24 2011 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by firepilot


Again, "every fluffy line is the sky is a chemtrail..." Sure, there are some folks out there who believe that every fluffy line might be a chemtrail, but they are not indicative of the whole. That just seems to be the impression that the OP and perhaps some others are getting. However, that is not the case. VALID arguments for chemtrails do not necessarily suggest the 24/7 365 spraying.

Thats actually exactly what most every chemtrail site and chemtrail youtube video says exactly, that anything other than a short lasting skinny contrail, is a chemtrail. Illustrating yet again, every chemtrailer has their own beliefs...

Again, if there are such things as chemtrails, and it is a reality, there would certainly be a disinformation campaign to hide the truth, cluttering up YouTube and every other internet venue with outrageous claims. You cannot, with validity, use the sheer number of claims and photos and such as proof that msot chemtrail "believers" acutally believe we are being sprayed 24/7 365 or not. All that YouTube volume proves is that there is a lot of volume out there. It does not show that perhaps most of it is posted by people trying to hide the truth by murking up the waters with distortions and exaggerations. Websites and website content are not necessarily demonstrative of actual belief.


Originally posted by firepilot
And you may check into how many airplanes NOAA has too, it sure is not very many at all.

The fact that NOAA has limited resources doesn't negate the fact that they have conducted EXTENSIVE weather research over the last decade or two (or more, perhaps). Weather experimentation has been carried out since the 1950s, when the government first began its spraying of toxins over US population centers. They didn't go into it stupidly or blind. You bet they did, have done more and are still doing research. Further, NOAA was just one example. Universities, colleges, research organizations, government think-tanks like JASON and DAARPA and then PRIVATE CORPORATIONS have done extensive weather research.


Originally posted by firepilot
I have even flown on meteorological research projects myself, and thats not evidence of chemtrails either


Who said that meteorological research was evidence of chemtrails? The entire subject of research came up because claims were made that "we aren't smart enough to predict" weahter patterns, thereby negating the effectiveness of aerial spraying. It was stated that it was "impossible" to predict how vapors would spread. I pointed out that in fact, much research (sophisticated research at that) has been conducted by everything and everyone mentioned in the paragraph above. So, hats off to you for going on a research project. It in no way diminishes the fact that research continues and that we can predict the effect of weather upon vapors with some measure of accuracy.

Further, these people have much more sophisticated equipment than what is provided to C-130 (or any other) aircraft personnel to check wind conditions. These scientists would make rocket scientists look like schoolchildren. Believe it or not, the government has, is, and will always employ such people with dazzling scientific intellect on their payroll. It pays to pay smart people to be on your team. The same is true with private corporations.







 
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