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Chemtrail believers have no idea!

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posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by lunarcrystal
reply to post by Riff2525
 


I just wanted to add my own comments to this. This is a topic of high interest in my household and in my whole town.

Riff, my story is almost exactly like yours. Everyone, if you're reading this, please understand that I consider myself a relatively intelligent person and to give me the benefit of the doubt. I also live in the country, in Taos, NM, where we should be having many many clear skies and not so much air traffic at all. Maybe once or twice a week, a little plane will land at the tiny airport we have. Yes, we'll have the occasional commercial jet fly over, but this isn't as common as one may think. Very sleepy, quiet hippie town.

The nearest commercial airport is Albuquerque International.

As winter began, we started noticing an increase in jet planes flying over our town. Sometimes we would see 5 at a time! And all of them would be leaving behind jet trails that persist for longer than 20 minutes, simultaneously.

I also completely understand the skepticism. Perhaps it's just our human nature to deny such incredible claims outright, or to trust the "normal" and accepted explanations for this phenomenon. However, the frequency of these planes showing up, the number of them at one time all leaving behind something (Fuel? Really? ALL of them? ALL day?) I counted up to 16 of these jet trails drawn in the sky in one day alone.

They leave peculiar Xs and grid patterns in the sky, and we can watch them flying toward each other to draw the X simultaneously at times. Many times, I would say. This has been happening every day since October. We're always looking. Some days it's so frequent, the trails disperse into an ugly orange-like haze in our beautiful azure skies...the diminished and dingy light is truly depressing, in a place where DH Lawrence himself wrote of Taos light being the most beautiful. It blocks out our sun, most days.

I don't know what it is, or what they're spraying, IF they're spraying. I DO know my area, however, and what normal contrails look like.

I also don't know what health effects - if any - this has on us, or what we could even do about it. Friends here in town and in nearby Santa Fe (who also experiences these persisting jet trails frequently) report feeling illness during this phenomenon, such as headache, nausea, and breathing issues. I can't say for sure if they're related.

This is what I see, and my logical mind tells me it is abnormal.

Namaste.

Edit: I was implored by my company here to include the title of the documentary What In The World Are They Spraying?. It may be of interest to some, or perhaps you've already seen it. Thought we could share it anyway. ^.^
edit on 20-1-2011 by lunarcrystal because: (no reason given)


Well this is is a good illustration of multiple fallacies. And I am not belittling or insulting you at all, I used to live in Northern NM and about 25 miles east of taos on 64, so you can guess where I lived. I know Taos extremely well too (I have spent some long evenings in the Alley Cantina) But your message sounds like it results more from an unfamiliarity with aviation than anything else.

First fallacy, is that if you do not live next to a major airport, then you should not have contrails. Well airplanes do not just hop airport to nearby airport. They fly enroute and will overfly many airports and towns along the way. And actually there is alot of enroute traffic over northern NM too. While taos is probably 100 nm or so from ABQ, all traffic going into ABQ Sunport from the north, will come close to Taos, especially DEN to ABQ. And then many many E-W flights go over the Cimarron VOR which is E of Taos too about 35 miles and you can guess what town that is nearby.

And we both know how far you can see in the NM skies, seeing a contrail 100 miles away is quite possible too.

Regarding more contrails as fall/winter approaches, this happens every year. There is a yearly lull in persistent contrails as it get warmer, as evidenced by on every board like carnicoms, where they all ask where the chemtrails went to. And then as it gets colder, then we have all the longer lasting contrails back. It happens every year as fall approaches...

I miss northern NM....its like home to me.




posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy
 

The government has been PROVEN to have sprayed US citizens with hazardous material and other toxins in the past. FACT. Because of this PRECEDENT, it is not a stretch to conclude that they *might* be doing it now, for in the past they proved they cared little for the health and welfare of the "test subjects." Because of this FACT, it is therefore LIKELY that the same government would continue to spray citizens with whatever manner of substances they *deem fit.*

When such atrocities are PROVEN and SUBSTANTIATED, a great LOSS OF FAITH ensues, rightfully. Understandably, the public has lost some faith with ANY government claims since THAT VERY SAME GOVERNMENT committed said atrocities.

Sure, that is not proof, but would you trust them? Do you trust them?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
reply to post by GhostLancer
 



Originally posted by GhostLancer
Many things have been proven throughout history, and those facts aren't used to substantiate what is is going on in the world now.


In this post YOU just did exactly that! You tried to use facts from history to substantiate the chemtrail conspiracy.

I want to see proof of a chemtrail conspiracy, NOT flawed logic like "they did this in the past, so they probably do it now".


Originally posted by GhostLancer
For instance, it is proven we went to war to fight for our ideals and to gain resources. Does that prove we are doing that now? No, it does not.


I agree with you on that. That is exactly what I said in the post you replied to.


Originally posted by GhostLancer
To use the fact that we did something in the past, and then to say that just because we did it before doesn't mean we're doing it now --as a way to suggest that we are NOT doing it now just does not work to prove your point. There is an addage that "You can't prove a negative." You simply cannot prove that chemicals are NOT being sprayed. In that light, it is very difficult to prove that is IS happening as well. Difficult, yet possible.


I was NOT trying to prove anything.... I am simply looking for proof that the "chemtrail conspiracy" is real. So far all I have seen from chemtrail believers are logical fallacies, and assumptions.

If the "chemtrail conspiracy" was happening, it would be very easy to prove it. It would be easier to prove it is happening than it would to prove it isn't happening, because you can't prove a negative. That is why the burden of proof lies on the chemtrail believers.

So far, there is ZERO actual proof of a large scale conspiracy. Pointing to patents, mention facts from history, and showing images of contrails doesn't cut it. Also, scientific tests of water that have not been peer reviewed or proven to be a controlled experiment don't cut it either.


Originally posted by GhostLancer
Further, we *can* use the past as a PRECEDENT (an event that has occurred before) to add weight to the argument that it is going on now. Still, more evidence is needed. Yet, having a PRECEDENT means that the it can be somewhat likely that spraying is going on now, statistically, than if it had never happened before. Again, though, likelihood is not evidence, it's just more weight in favor of those who present theories about what might be happening now.


That is just the thing.... I was saying PRECEDENT IS NOT PROOF. We are looking for proof, not precedent.


Originally posted by GhostLancer

Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
To prove chemtrails exist you have to do more than point at things and say, "see they did this, so it means they might be doing this". That is not proof, that is assumption.

You are very right. Again, the government established a PRECEDENT that they don't take the health and welfare of average citizens into account (or they simply don't care) when they want to test a toxin of some kind. How can one put faith that the government is NOT spraying, when in the past they have ESTABLISHED that they will spray harmful substances JUST TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE GET SICK AND/OR DIE?


..... again, precedent is not proof. We are looking for proof of chemtrails, not assumptions.

You can add all the dead weight you want to your argument, but as far as I am concerned the scales are tipped in favor of chemtrail disbelievers simply because the "chemtrail conspiracy" is heavily flawed in many aspects scientifically, economically, and logically.



Originally posted by GhostLancer
This is why child molestors have to register themselves and present themselves to the community whenever they move to a new location. As HORRIFIC as that kind of crime is, our government did WORSE when they sprayed toxins over millions of American citizens in the past (again, evidenced via FOIA documents). Once certain levels of crimes are committed (e.g. rape, murder, worse), one simply cannot continue to argue with: "Just because he raped and murdered before does not prove he is raping and murdering now" -and have much credibility.

Would you want a convicted rapist or murderer to live next door to you? Would you trust that he/she wouldn't do it again just because he/she did it in the past and admitted to it? Personally, I would move or put up a secure fence and alarm system or arm myself, or all of the previous. In that light, it is important to understand that the government LOST A LOT OF CREDIBILITY AND TRUST when they sprayed harmful substances over major population centers from the 1950s - 1970s(ish). And again, that's what they ADMIT to; who knows what has been and possibly IS going on?


...again... you have no proof that a major chemtrail conspiracy is actually happening. All you have is reasoning...


Hey, you would make a great lawyer. My compliments. People with such circling reasoning were employed by the cigarette industry to spin away the facts concerning the connection between smoking and cancer. The cigarette companies KNEW that all of their additives caused cancer, yet spent billions to fight litigation so that they could make DOZENS (OR MORE) OF BILLIONS selling cigarettes. You can argue the "absolute proof" point into the ground and all you are doing is serving as a cigarette lawyer.

I cannot claim to *KNOW* that the chemtrail conspiracy (as you put it) is true or false. I can claim to know that the government that is accused of this has acted DISHONORABLY IN THE PAST TO A ***BLATANT*** DEGREE. Fool me once, shame of you. Fool me twice, shame on ME.

Personally, I still have an open mind. Yet it is shameful to stand by as others try to *debunk* chemtrails as paranoid delusions. There is simply much, much more to it than that.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by Lynexon
i read the first few pages of this thread and, after all of the evidence of SOMETHING at least going on that was presented by a few posters, specifically Mileslong, the OP is completely ignoring any answers given to them so i really think this thread should just be closed. If not, then it is a good example of how to ask for something but not ever want to hear any answers that are given.


No, It's not that we're ignoring the answers given, it's that none of the answers supplied are VALID.
NONE OF THEM STAND UP TO TO THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF SCRUTINY.

Could chemtrails exist? Sure.
Is there any reason to think that they do, at least on the scale suggested? No, there isn't.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by filosophia
 

The sun is only located based on your perspective. Airplanes are relatively close to the earth, so what looks like a criss cross pattern blocking the sun to you doesn't to someone twenty miles away. Doesn't make sense, airlines spend way to much money on fuel to be diverting planes to try to block the sun over your house.


This message is in reply to one of the first posts, oops to late to put a quote in here. I'll get the hang of this soon.
edit on 21-1-2011 by Earthling1987 because: I missed an opportunity to quote the person i am replying to



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by AllSeeingI


You and I have talked about this, and I agree that spraying has most likely happened

So you are a chemtrailer too?


nice try.
nope, not in the sense that I believe we are being sprayed all day every day, in every city, like 90% of the chemmies on this thread and on this board.

here is a question to you, are you sure that when the testing was done, it left visible lines in the sky, or was it an invisible mist? Common sense would dictate that they sprayed it at relatively low altitudes in order to know where it landed. Even the silliest small brained bonehead would agree that something sprayed at 30,000 feet would not land anywhere near where it was initially sprayed.

I think that if and when the bad man sprays you, you will have no idea it just happened. the lines in the sky are con trails. But that's just my opinion.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by Lynexon
i read the first few pages of this thread and, after all of the evidence of SOMETHING at least going on that was presented by a few posters, specifically Mileslong, the OP is completely ignoring any answers given to them so i really think this thread should just be closed. If not, then it is a good example of how to ask for something but not ever want to hear any answers that are given.


just so you know, pictures of lines in the sky will not ever convince me of anything other than con trails. I am hard headed, and the only thing that would convince me that a line in the sky was a chemtrail, would be testing that trail and finding some chemical compound that was foreign. This is the purpose of my thread. this is the reason I am saying that the chemtrail conspiracy is a crock of crap. I hope that is clear.

Now, is it possible that at some time "the government" has sprayed people? yea, in fact some people here have posted proof that it happened. But what was not said is what it looked like when they sprayed. So for all I know they dropped hypodermic needles out of a C-130 and infected them with influenza. As I said above, spraying at 30,000 feet would not work, and everyone who thinks about it would agree. Spraying a 1000 feet might be able to be pinpointed at to where it would land. So that negates the use of that argument as a chemtrail, it was a chemspray. Now I can agree on that theory.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 06:08 AM
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reply to post by boroboy
 


there are two problems with your links. they have been discussed at length here before. Firstly, the samples taken were from the ground. The contaminates could have, and probably did, come from a factory nearby.
secondly, the bill was introduced by Kusinch's aid and when he found that part in the bill, he deleted it. That is verifiable. And even if the word chemtrail was introduced and passed in a bill, the chemmies cannot agree on what a chemtrail is, so we would still be in the same spot.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 06:14 AM
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reply to post by network dude
 


My belief on the reasons is to reflect harmful UV rays or emissions from the sun and not to cloud seed as it were. the thing that worries me deeply is this chem spraying is so widespread. this has gone so far beyond testing in remote areas and this geo engineering is conducted globally by many governments. there is proof that the chemtrails contain many harmful metals and chemicals which any person will tell you can only make you sick when it enters the food supply. there are areas in this world that have very high concentrations of aluminum and other metals in the sealed water supplies and food chains and even form samples taken from peoples hair, with no obvious source for the metals the only answer is it is coming from above.

So why is this happening on such a global scale with no testing or a disregard for testing?

it cant be to make the population sick or dependent on welfare or national health. Its counter productive creating a plague or illness in your own country.

So what is happening to the earth that so many governments feel the need to spray these chemtrails and yet cover them up and deny them?



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 07:33 AM
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I read your thread yesterday and took in what you said about the 'myth' 20 mins or more and its a chemtrail if not contrail and today at 1pm, walking back home I have noticed a hell a lot more 'trails' than usual. Over here in the North of the UK not many planes fly over my hometown (just the odd few now and then) on Fridays you get a bit more but this Friday there are loads. I read that chemtrails are sparyed to divert hurricanes etc but here up north you dont get any and its way too high up to accurately spray down on the intented target and its on a hill and therefore we get constant wind so spraying wont be effective. I have taken a few photos from my bedroom window and I will upload them but as I am typing this post the trails are disappearing under 20 minutes. The number of planes have increased in the area, but Blackpool did open an airport a few years ago and it is now the regional airport now so that could be the cause.

Just a note for non-Uk members, Blackpool is a city. I am uploading the pictures now.

Here is the first one I took:


The second: Long trail


And the third one continues from the second:


Right click and click view image to see the full picture.
edit on 21/1/2011 by naeem11111 because: uploading images



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by Riff2525
 


I have several fly-overs by helicopters, and several close fly-bys. Why? Air ambulance. They will fly to the closest heliport-equipped trauma center. If they are far enough away toward the north of my position, they will get into the fastest flight path, over my house. If they are closer, or the run originated from somewhere to the E or W of me, then they will fly-by close to my house. Sometimes there are several runs close together. I know that means a bad accident, with more than one trauma patient necessitates the helicopter to go back and fourth.

Being in the middle of nowhere means squat in relation to where planes fly over you. Aircraft navigation has routes, similar to highways. The planes follow these. There are reasons for the routes to vary. You need to find out what the planes are. You can online close to real-time at FlightAware.com. You will find where they are going, where they came from, even the model of plane they are flying.
Knowledge can take away a lot of mystery if you know how to research.
Nothing you experienced will not have a very easily explainable cause. You just have to look for it.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 08:58 AM
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reply to post by naeem11111
 


Several pages ago, there was a YouTube video about air traffic in Britain. It's amazing how busy your skies are when you see 24 hours of planes animated into a minute or so.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by naeem11111
 


so don't you find it amazing that you are just noticing them? Almost as if the weather is a factor huh? You probably don't see as many in the summer right? Lines in the sky does not equal chemtrails. That is a fact that is not disputed even by some of the most adamant chemtrail believers. I submit that none of what you see in the sky are chemtrails. They are contrails that are at the correct altitude to support them staying intact. As I am sure you have noticed, not every plane leaves a trail. Some planes fly at different altitudes. But you will see more in the winter as the conditions at altitude are much more favorable this time of year.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by Riff2525
 


I just thought of something that probably will put you at ease. Red Flag is going on right now. There are teams from every air base around either practicing or en route to the competition. You will see a big increase in military air traffic around this time. Especially out west. Nothing wrong with asking questions and being curious.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by network dude
I have been amazed at the varying answers I get when asking about chemtrails. These people cannot agree on anything. I guess since science seems to be on the side of sanity and that the lines in the sky are called contrails, it stands to reason that the story might change a bit from person to person.

For those who don't know about this myth, here is how it goes:

If a line left behind a plane lasts for longer than 20 minutes, it's a chemtrail. It if dissipates before the 20 minute mark, it's a contrail.

But when faced with facts about weather conditions, this theory falls apart. Once that is gone, exactly what is left of this theory?

I have asked countless numbers of people who believe in this myth to share their views with me. Some say that it happens in every major city in the world. I have even been told of the exact year this phenomenon started. Unfortunately, that date changes from person to person. By 10-15 years. The amount of spraying varies from almost every day in every major city, to only sometimes.

What do they do? That seems to be the million dollar question. nobody can pinpoint any affects. Do they cause mass illness? nope, not that anyone can verify. Do they kill people? nope, not that anyone can verify. Are they to combat global warming? well, I think we should first agree if global warming is man made, or a natural cycle before we try to adjust mother nature. Is that the reason they exist? some might say so. some may not.

There is no uniformity with this conspiracy. Nobody seems to be able to agree on anything other then someone must be hiding something. When I look up the word paranoid, it's definition sounds eerily familiar.


ive been an ATS lurker since its beginings and since i only registerd recently i cant upload any pics,but basically ive been watching chemtrails for years having read about them 20 yrs ago. well yesterday about 11am gmt lovely clear morning i wached a plane flying by(i live 20 miles from a main airport so see this quite often)i cant tell how high it was but i could see the trail it left and it disappeared within about 30 seconds,then i noticed about 15 mins later another plane flying about the same height and course and the trail it left stayed there for well over ten mins and was wider and it seemed to slowly lower down but i cant be sure on that



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 11:16 AM
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i'm afraid your 'chemtrails' are a good mixture of phobia with a good portion of unawarness about specific environmental properties.

what you see as these trails in the skies are basically ice particels which form on tiny particles from burned fuel inside jet-engines.
Since no reaction in such a jet engine burns its fuel with a 100% efficiency you will see more or less soot or smoke.
The older the engine the more smoke, the more tiny particles.

Now even in your hottest summer these airplanes fly high in the sky, and there are temperatures like -60°C.
So soot or particles from these engines build the core for ice particles starting to build up on it.
The albedo of ice is high, so light is reflected on it, and you see these white trails.

Now this is the official scientific viewpoint to it. and the story would be over. You can proove that in a laboratory.
The Involved process is named condensation, and you can even see such when your open your freezer having ice condensing on tiny dust particles crawling out of it. nothing much new here except for a few.

As having to do with military aircraft i can assure you that there is no implented technology to have a wide range of aircraft equipped with any additional technical equipment intentionally spraying anything into the skies while flying.
There might be experiments in the 50's or 60's, but today .. well.. we know better why should someone spray something intenionally into the skies ?
The judical system is like: 'spill a coffee on your legs and get $8 mio because there wasn't any warning that coffee might be hot'. And you think in such conditions anyone would risk to modify millions by intentionally spraying something on them ? dream on

At this point the story would be over a second time, but there is more.

Airplanes, Jet-engines, even your car is powered by fuel.
Now fuel isn't clean. Based on the cost the fuel is not 100% alcohol or anything else being capable of burning so efficient that it would not produce any soot. Fuel and the engines burning it are a compromise which ensures that everything involved is as cheap as possible.
So fuel, be it jet-fuel or the premium unleaded you might used to get at your gas station is the result of cracking crued oil in a refinery.
These processes aren't 100% efficient too, and you have waste products, which one has to get rid off.

Now based on cost, it was decided that a specific ammount of this waste can be left inside the fuel to be burned.
and to be honest.. its YOU deciding it, by BUYING it, cause your car could have been one using hydrogene instead. electrical power, or something else on the market.
Based on cost you decided against ...so ... live with it

Now there you have your 'chem' in these trails.
But actually your car produces more chemtrails per pessenger per mile than an airplane.

and now ?

theres really no need to fire conspiracies on 'weather modifying'. Nowadays harming the environment with a governmental installation could end in a juristical nightmare. guess noone really needs something like that, so therefore there might be tendencies to 'have such powers' and some smartass people in the military rant about their superiority they will gain using such, but its all nothing else than hot air, which cools as fast as vater vapor on soot high in the skies.

convinced ?



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by TMJ1972
 

Actually, you are quite wrong. You really shouldn't be trying to "school" people on ATS without some basic information that IS readily available. Of course, you have to have an open mind.




These are scientists and meteorologists that are disagreeing with you btw.

More information for your education.

aircrap.org...

Check them out!



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 12:29 PM
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I agree... governments have been proven many times to experiment on populations. Why would they stop especially since technology and science are continuously evolving?



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by Stewie
 


filed charges against "unknowns". that out to fix it.

A video with questionable voice overs and edited subtitles, really? What exactly is this proof of?


If it's possible to differentiate chem trails from con trails with weather radar, then you should be able to point them out on any newscast. After all, they are happening all day, every day, in every city.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Stewie
reply to post by TMJ1972
 

Actually, you are quite wrong. You really shouldn't be trying to "school" people on ATS without some basic information that IS readily available. Of course, you have to have an open mind.




These are scientists and meteorologists that are disagreeing with you btw.

More information for your education.

aircrap.org...

Check them out!


This is rich, coming from you. You have been caught lacking basic information time and time again. How many completely untrue statements have you made in regards to aircraft, weather, and cloud seeding? Do we need to remind you of your allegations of secret boeing airplanes and 600 new tankers?

BTW, you should look up what Duppel means. You feel yet again for chemtrail lie . That video had multiple wrong translations, just to promote chemtrails, and you got taken. Here is a hint - they do not mention mysterious trails in it.. A chemtrailier lied about it so others would fall for it.

Or...did you know all of that and promote the video anyways to mislead people...
edit on 21-1-2011 by firepilot because: (no reason given)



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