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Chemtrail believers have no idea!

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posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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There's nothing wrong with believing that "Chemtrails" COULD exist. I still entertain the notion myself. My problem is that too many people claim to "know" for a "fact" that this type of chemical spraying goes on regularly, when there really isn't any proof to support that.

I think the problem lies in that people have this inherent gut-feeling that something isn't right in this world, which I can agree with, but just because there's some #ty people in control, doesn't mean you should believe every conspiracy you read.


If you are a firm believer in chemtrails, but your main reason for believing is:

a) The trails linger for hours.

b) I don't remember seeing them when I was young.

c) There's aluminum in the soil.

d) The trails form a criss-cross pattern!!!!

e) People get sick when I see them.

f) Scientists have discussed Geo-engineering.


...then I suggest continuing your research and keep digging. Im not saying you'll discover that they don't actually exist, I'm saying that the reasons listed are not sufficient proof, and aren't worthy of being a deciding factor.

Also, cut it out with the "He's a disinformation agent" bolony. While I don't doubt that some exist, not everybody who questions a conspiracy theory that's riddled with holes has an agenda. It's good to be skeptical.

I know you WANT to believe. You REALLY want to believe... but keep your mind open, both for nonsense being fed to you through the MSM and as well as for theories criticizing them.

Just because you can connect the dots, doesn't mean they were meant to be connected.




posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by Echtelion
 


You really need to look up how modern cloud seeding is attempted, as there is no guarantee that it will work. Then you need to research about how cloud seeding was attempted before planes. Yep, it has a long history, predated planes by hundreds of years. That doesn't quite fit into your statement. Because cloud-seeding is not "chemtrails". Never has been. Except to people who don't understand how clouds are seeded.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:08 PM
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for those who are obsessed with pattents I give you THIS. Where is this ship? According to common theory, there should be hundreds of these ships floating all over pumping fake clouds out.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Although I am a little skeptical of chemtrails I do think the theory is plausible. You fail to factor in that humans will always have an agenda. For example, to bring about Agenda21 from the UN one congress office allowed illegal dumping in Florida.

You can't rule out something when it is hard to provide evidence for. If you simply shrug and say they haven't provided proof is that enough to put your life on risk for? What if in 10 years you found out that whole time they have spread diseases from the sky? How would you react to it?

The only hard part is getting the evidence but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible just yet.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by HattoriHanzou
 





And yes, there is ample evidence that some secret group(s) spray daily. People have produced photographs and videos of planes at similar altitudes, some spraying and some not spraying. It's not clouds - it's chemtrails.

Say I'm totally new to the whole concept. Where is your ample evidence? How can you tell chemical content from a photo or video? How did you judge altitude? Why do you think they are spraying instead of producing exhaust, like your breath on a cold day?

If these groups are "secret", why do they not use an invisible method instead of making visible trails behind planes? If flying lower would not produce contrails, I would think a "secret" group would be flying their planes lower.
Instead the "chemtrail" theory is the most highly-visible, high maintenance, high cost, labor-intensive, scattershot way of delivering anything anywhere at any time.

"They" are not very smart.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by HattoriHanzou
 




Besides, how can you tell that's cloud seeding? Do the pixels whisper to you? Are you privy to some sort of cloud seeding schedule database?


Yet just minutes ago, you were talking about all the photos and videos as evidence?
Duplicity is not a good trait in an intelligent debate.
So you cannot tell what a trail is by looking, photos, or videos, right?
You are in the extreme minority of "chemtrail" believers if you think that. Which goes back to the OP, being why is there no consensus in the "chemtrail" community.
Interesting.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Hr2burn
 

When I was young (in the 60's and every year since), I was able to look up see contrails forming in different ways, lasting for different times, growing or shrinking differently. Just like clouds.
Really, contrails growing, spreading and persisting is not unusual or "new". It's happened all along. You just didn't notice them before you found "chemtrails". I did notice them, because my father flew to work every week for over 10 years.
There are more now, because there are more planes.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by pagan_night
 


Not seeing your point.
Someone wants all information containing the world "chemtrail"? They will receive an empty box.
Oh, unless they have recorded the laughing when people have called them with silly "chemtrail" questions.
I've been told they do that, by a pilot and air-traffic controller. It's a joke and source of amusement to them.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by markem33
 


I agree this thread is a waste of time. There is another chemtrail-related thread with 240 flags and is a Top Members Pick. It goes to show that the ATS community believes that this operation is taking place. This group that denies chemtrails and is less than kind to those who do, are in the minority.

Let them figure it out for themselves. If you posted all 3 million websites with chemtrail discussion/proof/photos/scientific research/scientific input, they will still bicker back and forth about it. I say let them be. Live in your own truth and spread the word.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by GhostLancer
 

I agree with you. Yes it has been proven that in the past things have been sprayed. Does that mean that now on January 20th 2011, there are thousands of planes spraying over most cities in the world as I type this?
that is what this conspiracy is being portrayed as, and that is what I am calling BS on. Every line that persists in the sky is not a chemtrail.

I agree with you, too. Just because the government has sprayed all manner of toxic agents over highly populated American cities in the past does not mean that they are doing it today. However, one must appreciate the level of skepticism held by many citizens that they are NOT doing this now. The spraying that I referred to happened as far back as the early 1950s, and the public did not learn about this until the 1970s and 1980s. With that in mind, thirty years from now we might be learning about a spraying program that is possibly going on right now. And, keep in mind that there were probably people back in the 1950s, in a populated area that was being sprayed, who told other people that they suspected some toxin was being sprayed. Of course, those people were ridiculed. Decades later, the truth came out.

So, yes, because it happened before does not mean it is happening now. However, it is by no means a large stretch to imagine that such programs are going on now, especially in light of all of the widespread sightings. Is that 100% proof? Short of the government admitting to it (as it did before), we will never know. Personally, I can only hope that IF it is happening now, that they are doing it for a good reason, although that reason might be highly classified.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:46 PM
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This may be true, I dont pretend to have alot of knowledge on air craft.. I've never been interested in airplanes or how they work. I dont really care about chemtrails vrs contrails... to me thats not the issue. What concerns me is the fact they are airial spraying stuff into the air via airplane. Wheather its the noted chemtrails everyone sees is moot.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
reply to post by GhostLancer
 

It has also proven that the government uses animals to test drugs and vaccines and chemicals. But... Does that mean they go around spraying large quantities of drugs and chemicals at a large scale on wildlife preservation areas all around the world, every day? No.

Many things have been proven throughout history, and those facts aren't used to substantiate what is is going on in the world now. For instance, it is proven we went to war to fight for our ideals and to gain resources. Does that prove we are doing that now? No, it does not. However, we happen to be doing that very thing, right now. To use the fact that we did something in the past, and then to say that just because we did it before doesn't mean we're doing it now --as a way to suggest that we are NOT doing it now just does not work to prove your point. There is an addage that "You can't prove a negative." You simply cannot prove that chemicals are NOT being sprayed. In that light, it is very difficult to prove that is IS happening as well. Difficult, yet possible.

Further, we *can* use the past as a PRECEDENT (an event that has occurred before) to add weight to the argument that it is going on now. Still, more evidence is needed. Yet, having a PRECEDENT means that the it can be somewhat likely that spraying is going on now, statistically, than if it had never happened before. Again, though, likelihood is not evidence, it's just more weight in favor of those who present theories about what might be happening now.


Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
To prove chemtrails exist you have to do more than point at things and say, "see they did this, so it means they might be doing this". That is not proof, that is assumption.

You are very right. Again, the government established a PRECEDENT that they don't take the health and welfare of average citizens into account (or they simply don't care) when they want to test a toxin of some kind. How can one put faith that the government is NOT spraying, when in the past they have ESTABLISHED that they will spray harmful substances JUST TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE GET SICK AND/OR DIE?

This is why child molestors have to register themselves and present themselves to the community whenever they move to a new location. As HORRIFIC as that kind of crime is, our government did WORSE when they sprayed toxins over millions of American citizens in the past (again, evidenced via FOIA documents). Once certain levels of crimes are committed (e.g. rape, murder, worse), one simply cannot continue to argue with: "Just because he raped and murdered before does not prove he is raping and murdering now" -and have much credibility.

Would you want a convicted rapist or murderer to live next door to you? Would you trust that he/she wouldn't do it again just because he/she did it in the past and admitted to it? Personally, I would move or put up a secure fence and alarm system or arm myself, or all of the previous. In that light, it is important to understand that the government LOST A LOT OF CREDIBILITY AND TRUST when they sprayed harmful substances over major population centers from the 1950s - 1970s(ish). And again, that's what they ADMIT to; who knows what has been and possibly IS going on?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by Jack Squat
 


that is pretty much how I fee as well.

My biggest problem to date with this whole mess is a bunch, no A large group of people are talking about chemtrails. Talking. Doing nothing. We have a whole generation of people sitting around waiting for someone to do something. This is going to be the downfall of a nation. Possible an entire civilization.

If you care deeply about something, you protect it with your life if necessary. While I don't believe that we are being sprayed, many do. Those people need to do something. Proving it exists should be relatively simple. Organizing a political movement should be the next step, If they can prove it's happening. If it ends up that nothing can be proven, then that should be a signal to them that perhaps there is not a huge conspiracy going on with this. I implore these people to get active. Get a job in avionics, find out how it's happening. Take jet fuel samples and have them analyzed. Hire a plane to take air samples. Writing blog after blog, post after post, will not fix anything. My concern goes way beyond chemtrails.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by Jack Squat
 


How does this prove they are lingering contrails? I've seen people say here and have read that at least two governments (US and UK) have admitted to experimenting in the US and London as far back as these photos show.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by GhostLancer
 



Originally posted by GhostLancer
Many things have been proven throughout history, and those facts aren't used to substantiate what is is going on in the world now.


In this post YOU just did exactly that! You tried to use facts from history to substantiate the chemtrail conspiracy.

I want to see proof of a chemtrail conspiracy, NOT flawed logic like "they did this in the past, so they probably do it now".


Originally posted by GhostLancer
For instance, it is proven we went to war to fight for our ideals and to gain resources. Does that prove we are doing that now? No, it does not.


I agree with you on that. That is exactly what I said in the post you replied to.


Originally posted by GhostLancer
To use the fact that we did something in the past, and then to say that just because we did it before doesn't mean we're doing it now --as a way to suggest that we are NOT doing it now just does not work to prove your point. There is an addage that "You can't prove a negative." You simply cannot prove that chemicals are NOT being sprayed. In that light, it is very difficult to prove that is IS happening as well. Difficult, yet possible.


I was NOT trying to prove anything.... I am simply looking for proof that the "chemtrail conspiracy" is real. So far all I have seen from chemtrail believers are logical fallacies, and assumptions.

If the "chemtrail conspiracy" was happening, it would be very easy to prove it. It would be easier to prove it is happening than it would to prove it isn't happening, because you can't prove a negative. That is why the burden of proof lies on the chemtrail believers.

So far, there is ZERO actual proof of a large scale conspiracy. Pointing to patents, mention facts from history, and showing images of contrails doesn't cut it. Also, scientific tests of water that have not been peer reviewed or proven to be a controlled experiment don't cut it either.


Originally posted by GhostLancer
Further, we *can* use the past as a PRECEDENT (an event that has occurred before) to add weight to the argument that it is going on now. Still, more evidence is needed. Yet, having a PRECEDENT means that the it can be somewhat likely that spraying is going on now, statistically, than if it had never happened before. Again, though, likelihood is not evidence, it's just more weight in favor of those who present theories about what might be happening now.


That is just the thing.... I was saying PRECEDENT IS NOT PROOF. We are looking for proof, not precedent.


Originally posted by GhostLancer

Originally posted by gift0fpr0phecy
To prove chemtrails exist you have to do more than point at things and say, "see they did this, so it means they might be doing this". That is not proof, that is assumption.

You are very right. Again, the government established a PRECEDENT that they don't take the health and welfare of average citizens into account (or they simply don't care) when they want to test a toxin of some kind. How can one put faith that the government is NOT spraying, when in the past they have ESTABLISHED that they will spray harmful substances JUST TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE GET SICK AND/OR DIE?


..... again, precedent is not proof. We are looking for proof of chemtrails, not assumptions.

You can add all the dead weight you want to your argument, but as far as I am concerned the scales are tipped in favor of chemtrail disbelievers simply because the "chemtrail conspiracy" is heavily flawed in many aspects scientifically, economically, and logically.



Originally posted by GhostLancer
This is why child molestors have to register themselves and present themselves to the community whenever they move to a new location. As HORRIFIC as that kind of crime is, our government did WORSE when they sprayed toxins over millions of American citizens in the past (again, evidenced via FOIA documents). Once certain levels of crimes are committed (e.g. rape, murder, worse), one simply cannot continue to argue with: "Just because he raped and murdered before does not prove he is raping and murdering now" -and have much credibility.

Would you want a convicted rapist or murderer to live next door to you? Would you trust that he/she wouldn't do it again just because he/she did it in the past and admitted to it? Personally, I would move or put up a secure fence and alarm system or arm myself, or all of the previous. In that light, it is important to understand that the government LOST A LOT OF CREDIBILITY AND TRUST when they sprayed harmful substances over major population centers from the 1950s - 1970s(ish). And again, that's what they ADMIT to; who knows what has been and possibly IS going on?


...again... you have no proof that a major chemtrail conspiracy is actually happening. All you have is reasoning...



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 



I didn't link that to disprove Chemtrails as a whole. I linked it to debunk the people claiming "How come I never saw any lingering trails in the sky when I was a kid, huh?"



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by Jack Squat
 

Gotcha. Thanks. Sorry for misunderstanding. They certainly weren't as prevalent when I was a kid.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 


One of the other reasons you didn't see contrails as much when you were younger is because the aircraft usually didn't fly as high as they do now. They were capable of it, but they just didn't have a need to fly that high. Flying lower decreases the chances of contrails being formed.

Now there are several reasons why aircraft of today fly higher:

1: Laws were passed to reduce noise pollution from aircraft so they fly higher to reduce noise on the ground.
2: Airliners trying to save money force their aircraft to fly higher where the air is thinner and they get better fuel economy.
3: To increase safety and comfort by avoiding bad weather, turbulence, and mountains completely.

Not only did the amount of flights increase, but the flying habits mentioned above changed and increased the amount of contrails being formed.



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by stars15k
 


Link. proof to back this statement?



posted on Jan, 20 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by gift0fpr0phecy
 


So we can all agree there were chemtrails in the past.
At least between 1940 and 1980.



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