Chemtrail believers have no idea!

I though i'll post it here for chem-trails deniers

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
See, now, I try to follow along here, but I get lost when things like this are stated.

This explanation of cloud seeding relies on the traditional methods but does not appear to take into account potentially confidential or classified experiments that could very well be going on that the general public has no knowledge of.

Why do so many people think this is such a stretch? Especially on a conspiracy site?

Because, AFAIK, There is no way of creating a cloud for any purpose other than dimming by adding water (or something for water to condense around) at high altitude. As we are talking about creating cirrus and cirrostratus at most, these don't give rain. To realise this, we basically need to remember the water cycle.

And, in the water cycle, water evaporates from the sea and forms clouds, and rain clouds are found at low altitudes, and this is where cloud seeding is useful, to cause clouds which have a useful amount of water to release it.

Putting a lot of water and light particles 10 km up in the air isn't going to do much, it might come down, but nowhere near where you want it do so, as it will be scattered just by being in air (as basic science tells you anything in a gas expands to fill the container), and by the winds as well.

reply to post by die_another_day


...but when they supposedly did that, it was low altitude spraying, below 1000 feet. Anything higher would be pointless, inaccurate, and a waste of money. Heck, even at 1000 feet it is pointless.

The reason contrails and clouds stay in the air and don't fall to the ground is because the water and ice particles are so dang small (microscopic) that they are very light weight. Rising warm air from the ground is enough force to keep the particles in the sky.

That is why I don't believe chemtrails exist. I have never seen a trail below 6,000 feet, EVER. Anything sprayed higher than 6k might not even reach the ground because of rising warm air pushing it back up. Then the winds would push them miles away from their intended target, and there is no way to control it ever. You could spray in California and it might end up several states over, or out at sea. So you can scratch off "controlled poisoning" from the chemtrail theories, because it would be too costly, to pointless, and uncontrollable.

As for weather modification.... to cool the Earth because of global warming... lol... get real. Although contrails form into natural clouds and block sun light and make it colder in the day.... at night it has the opposite effect, and the clouds trap heat and make it warmer in the night. That would be the most stupid thing to do for global warming.

Cloud seeding (to make it rain) is the only thing I think chemtrails would be useful for. However, you need to spray into clouds that already exist, so you probably wouldn't even see the trails. You also have to spray so much material just for a little bit or rain, so it would be highly expensive and impractical on a large scale. You can even do the math if you are bored... You can calculate how many particles there are in a gallon of chemicals, and basically I think (in a perfect world) it would be one rain drop per particle. You could probably water a farm for 2 minutes, but you couldn't make a storm.

The logistics alone totally debunk the chemtrail theories.

reply to post by network dude


I wish you had developed more your thread, but I agree 100%. Chemtrails is one of the worst conspiracy theories one can get stuck at. They're so visible is hard to deny them.

It's something you must get rid of by reading and reasoning that's why it's so hard.

reply to post by blangger


Standard chemisty....all combustion produces water as a by-product. A gallon of jet fuel produces almost a gallon water. It forms the water when the hydrogen in the fuel combines with the oxygen in their air. This is like second-day high school chemistry.

reply to post by moondoggy2


the con trail was at 18,567 feet and the one you thought was a chemtrail was at 26,800 feet. there was better conditions for cloud formation in the upper areas.

Originally posted by blangger

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by filosophia

 

near the sun? really? OK, 30,000 feet is not very close to the sun. When you see lines that seem to criss cross all over the sky, it's because the upper atmosphere temperatures and pressures are correct for cloud formation. All that is needed is a little moister. The aircraft exhaust provides that. Some days the very same planes flying at the very same altitudes will not leave any trail behind them at all. It'a all about the weather.

Moisture? Are you suggesting that they use fuel, that has water in it, in muti million aircraft?

are you suggesting that there is such a thing a fuel that has no moisture in it? look that up my friend.

reply to post by stars15k


Yeah, those pilots sure were stupid to fly at that height weren't they, no wonder so many of them got shot down.

I guess they did not know back then that if they had just gone abit higher or lower they could have been alot harder to see and safer.

And to all you who think cloud seeding is only done when other clouds are already there...

All they would need to do is fly where the contrails are, and bam there they have it.

Eureka, get all the planes to fly at the elevations needed to form massive contrails, then follow behind with cloud seeding planes and you can make rain !!

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by wcitizen

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by wcitizen

 

I was not being fair. I was leading you into a trap. If you look at the patents and proposed ideas of geo engineering, they are actually meant to be sprayed over the oceans. (that's kind of why it doesn't make sense that they are spraying small towns in Idaho) maybe it's just con trails.

Yep, that's what you do - you try to lead people into a trap. Imo, hat's not honest debate, and not what I'm interested in. Like I said earlier, I'm done with discussing anything with you. This time I won't change my mind.

reading comprehension must not be one of your strong suits.

Spraying over the oceans is what is being proposed. Look it up.

Do some reaserch!!!

that is my point. If it's happening right now, then these idiots are doing it wrong. They cannot see that they are spraying over land? My God, you people are so blinded by your theory that you won't even think.

With the literally dozens of Chemtrail ideas posted above, some of which mention spraying above water, but some above land, why are you so fixated on just this one?

Are you totally blind? Did you completely miss all the dang links that people have been posting, the patent numbers and documents and etc? Only a small number of those reference spraying above water for weather modification purposes, yet you are acting as if nobody showed you any information!

DO SOME RESEARCH!!!

From "Weather as a Force Modifier":

"A number of methods have been explored or proposed to modify the ionosphere, including injection of chemical vapors and heating or charging via electromagnetic radiation or particle beams (such as ions,
neutral particles, x-rays, MeV particles, and energetic electrons).27"

"A cloud, or several clouds, of microscopic computer particles, all communicating with each other and with a larger control system could provide tremendous capability. Interconnected, atmospherically buoyant, and having navigation capability in three dimensions, such clouds could be designed to have a wide-range of properties. They might exclusively block optical sensors or could adjust to become impermeable to other surveillance methods. They could also provide an atmospheric electrical potential difference, which otherwise might not exist, to achieve precisely aimed and timed lightning strikes. Even if power levels achieved were insufficient to be an effective strike weapon, the potential for psychological operations in many situations could be fantastic.
27
One major advantage of using simulated weather to achieve a desired effect is that unlike other approaches, it makes what are otherwise the results of deliberate actions appear to be the consequences of natural weather phenomena. In addition, it is potentially relatively inexpensive to do. According to J. Storrs Hall, a scientist at Rutgers University conducting research on nanotechnology, production costs of these nanoparticles could be about the same price per pound as potatoes.34"

"A pilot program known as Project Popeye conducted in 1966 attempted to extend the monsoon season inordertoincreasetheamountofmudontheHoChiMinhtrailtherebyreducingenemymovements. Asilver iodide nuclei agent was dispersed from WC-130, F4 and A-1E aircraft into the clouds over portions of the trail winding from North Vietnam through Laos and Cambodia into South Vietnam. Positive results during this initial program led to continued operations from 1967 to 1972. While the effects of this program remain disputed, some scientists believe it resulted in a significant reduction in the enemy’s ability to bring supplies into South Vietnam along the trail."

By attempting to paint people who believe in chemtrails as people who believe they are being used to poison everybody, you are engaging in the strawman fallacy. By suggesting that folks "get out and do some research" you are trying to imply that the research has not been done. It has been done, it is being done, and the US Air Force, among other organizations, has shown the intent to continue doing it. Atmospheric research and testing is expensive, and many people simply do not have the means to do it. Aside from that, what you are asking people to do is ridiculous on the face of it. I could claim that the sun doesn't produce light, for example. Then of course, you would come back and say it does, and show me reams of links to research that I could use to cure my ignorance. Of course, I would ignore all that, say there isn't one overarching idea behind all the theories on why the sun exists, and then tell you to get off your ass and do some research on your own about why the sun exists. Of course, this is all a giant tactic on my part to ignore the actual evidence, and get you sidetracked on trying to prove to me that indeed the sun exists and produces light.

This thread's busted, buddy, because you are looking more and more like a person who isn't interested in an honest discussion, and you are either unwilling or unable to comprehend the volume of actual good information on chemtrails that has been thrown your way. Fine, that's your decision, but don't attempt to claim that people haven't provided you with good, hard places to start

GETTING OUT OF YOUR MOM'S BASEMENT AND DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

reply to post by mileslong54



yup i agree with ya this post was a giant waste of time, this wasnt a debate or give any evidence that we are being paranoid, and they used the weather conditions as there only defence about a million times now. it doesnt matter how much evidence that we provide to support our beilefs and that chemtrails are real, been admitted to, and has been witnessed, it doesnt matter how much info and solid facts that we provide, you cant satisfy a troll, and this post should have been tagged "chemtrail troll expidition" because this is all that it has amounted to. i was never hear to convince anybody of anything, just looking for answers and got none, just more evidence to back up the chemtrails claim. and a contrail can form at any altitude, not just at 20000 feet, so im so sick of hearing them claim its the weather conditions, if any of them had any common sense or scientific reasoning they could figure out the exhaust of a jet engine pushes air out the back of it at around 2000mph and is at around -40 degrees C, so contrails/chemtrails can be formed at low altitudes, the water vapor from the exhaust just doesnt stay frozen very long at the lower and warmer altitudes, and so therefore doesnt hang and makes them allot harder to see from a distance, so guys give up on the weather explanation, it doesnt hold nearly as much water as you think. well im out mileslong54 goodluck finding answers here.

reply to post by blangger

Originally posted by blangger
Moisture? Are you suggesting that they use fuel, that has water in it, in muti million aircraft?

The fuel doesn't have water in it. The water is created when you burn the fuel. That is basic science (chemistry). All combustion engines that run on hydrocarbon fuels create water, and carbon dioxide.

Hydrocarbon = hydrogen and carbon. To burn it you need oxygen. When you burn hydrogen, it forms water (hydrogen and oxygen or H2O).

Originally posted by blangger

Moisture? Are you suggesting that they use fuel, that has water in it, in muti million aircraft?

No. He is saying that water comes from the exhaust of the jet. Chemistry tells us that pure combustion of any hydrocarbon produces Carbon Dioxide and Water. For instance, to burn ethane:

2(C2H6) + 7 (O2) = 4(CO2) + 6(H2O)
H2O being water, which is the important part, and what actually composes the contrail. Dodecane, C12H26 is what is used in jet fuel, and will produce a large amount of water as it has a lot more hydrogen in it.

reply to post by network dude

Regardless of visibility and how long a trail has been there, it is PROVEN that our government (US) has sprayed biological and chemical agents on its own population. This has been without a doubt proven via FOIC (Freedom of Information Act) documents released by our own government.

So, as far as the "when" and the "timeline" that chemtrails are said to have appeard, regardless of weather conditions and duration of visibility, --our government has admitted to having used aircraft to spread chemicals, toxins and biological agents over American cities.

AND THAT IS WHAT THEY HAVE CONFESSED. Imagine the things they have kept secret... So, it's not a large stretch to imagine that citizens might not fully trust the government. And, when they see contrails or chemtrails or unusually geometric cloud formations over their homes...

It is a valid possibility that someone has ordered someone to spray something over somewhere...

reply to post by GhostLancer


I agree with you. Yes it has been proven that in the past things have been sprayed. Does that mean that now on January 20th 2011, there are thousands of planes spraying over most cities in the world as I type this?

that is what this conspiracy is being portrayed as, and that is what I am calling BS on. Every line that persists in the sky is not a chemtrail.

Originally posted by network dude
I have been amazed at the varying answers I get when asking about chemtrails. These people cannot agree on anything. I guess since science seems to be on the side of sanity and that the lines in the sky are called contrails, it stands to reason that the story might change a bit from person to person.

For those who don't know about this myth, here is how it goes:

If a line left behind a plane lasts for longer than 20 minutes, it's a chemtrail. It if dissipates before the 20 minute mark, it's a contrail.

But when faced with facts about weather conditions, this theory falls apart. Once that is gone, exactly what is left of this theory?

I have asked countless numbers of people who believe in this myth to share their views with me. Some say that it happens in every major city in the world. I have even been told of the exact year this phenomenon started. Unfortunately, that date changes from person to person. By 10-15 years. The amount of spraying varies from almost every day in every major city, to only sometimes.

What do they do? That seems to be the million dollar question. nobody can pinpoint any affects. Do they cause mass illness? nope, not that anyone can verify. Do they kill people? nope, not that anyone can verify. Are they to combat global warming? well, I think we should first agree if global warming is man made, or a natural cycle before we try to adjust mother nature. Is that the reason they exist? some might say so. some may not.

There is no uniformity with this conspiracy. Nobody seems to be able to agree on anything other then someone must be hiding something. When I look up the word paranoid, it's definition sounds eerily familiar.

They are dropping microscopic pieces of metal in the Air. This can be confirmed. There are military aircraft spraying hi up in the atmosphere for experimental purposes. They say they are doing weather experiments. Although I do not see what tiny pieces of metal can do. Apparently they can induce clouding. This is well documented, just google it.

They say the metals are starting to show up all over the place. In the water, dirt etc.... Of course, their is no actual proof that Commercial Airliners are doing it. The only way one can really quasi put proof on it, are the long contrails that are being left that do not evaporate in said designating amount of time.

Thread can be closed now. Chemtrail theorists are literally sitting on the fence of paranoid schizophrenia. If you can see trails being formed off of the TOP of space shuttles as they leave the launch pad...then your "theory" is DESTROYED.

Theory debunked.
/thread

reply to post by GhostLancer


It has also proven that the government uses animals to test drugs and vaccines and chemicals. But... Does that mean they go around spraying large quantities of drugs and chemicals at a large scale on wildlife preservation areas all around the world, every day? No.

To prove chemtrails exist you have to do more than point at things and say, "see they did this, so it means they might be doing this". That is not proof, that is assumption.

Originally posted by Darkeligos
Thread can be closed now. Chemtrail theorists are literally sitting on the fence of paranoid schizophrenia. If you can see trails being formed off of the TOP of space shuttles as they leave the launch pad...then your "theory" is DESTROYED.

Theory debunked.
/thread

You know, just because you say it's debunked doesn't mean it is. Go ahead and debunk some of the patents, photographs, or the document called "Weather as a Force Multiplier" if you dare. Otherwise I would say you're a dishonest person who has no actual intention of contributing to a useful debate.

You're debunked. You can close your account now.

reply to post by network dude


Well, I'll answer that chemtrail debunkers have NO CLUE!

I don't know why we should care about all these fancy meteorological considerations that only serve as cognitive diversions, since now it's a recognized FACT that they are using SILVER IODIDE (a chemical toxic to humans) to make cloud seeding in the southern USA, with the explicit purpose of WEATHER MODIFICATION. And it came out on mainstream news recently that 2 years ago, Australia bought an analog weather modification device from the King of Thailand -as funny as it sounds- to fight drought in the same Australian province that's got severe flood problems right now! Make your web search on that, there's many articles about it. As for the other potential chemicals that governments and military night be using, it's still hypothetical, but at least we have these proofs now.

...or perhaps you are not interested with facts? In that case there is nothing I can do to convince you, network dude.

reply to post by HattoriHanzou


just so you know, the whole "do your research" thing is a joke based on the first part of this thread. Because I had a different point of view than a few other posters, they claimed that I must not have researched this at all since I didn't come to the same conclusion they did. Don't get hung up on it.