Jewish Orthodox publication openly calls for death camps

Originally posted by gravitational

No it's not part of their religion. Don't confuse ultra orthodox idiots with the entire religion you know nothing about.
The moment you will honestly address how Christians are being treated in Muslim countries, maybe then we can start taking you seriously.
Trashing Israel and Jews constantly, without seeing the big picture, is stupidity at best, or bigotry at worst.

Nobody trashes Jews because they are Jews, that would be antisemetic and a Western mindset. Israel and Zionist violence is a completely separate matter. Israel is a violent terrorist state and no one at the receiving end is obliged to tolerated one iota of it for a second. Once you get to terms with this reality, you will understand the nature of resistance. Eventually these European interlopers and professional victims will be sent back to what every God forsaken part of the world they emerged.

Regarding your Christian victimisation outrage; it never happened until the US and Israel started their car bombing campaigns and secret death squad programme all over the Middle East. I think American call it the the "El Salvador Option" and it was very successful in Iraq; one day a car bomb or an IED would go off near US troops and the next day another would go off in a neighbourhood market full of poor Iraqi women and children. You want to split hairs about who was doing that?

Originally posted by illusive man

you will always get a Jew which is nuts
look at that nazi jew who came into israel just to attack others of his own faith lol

True.

They're people just like anyone else.
You cannot blame an entire people for the stupidity of a handful of them.

- Lee

reply to post by Ilovecatbinlady


So Palestine isnt a terrorist state? Their citizens arent encouraged to blow themselves up? And indeed offered compensation to do so by foreign interests? They dont regularly committ to terrorist attacks? Or can that be excused as self defence..even though their victims are civilians and some cases infants,children and teenagers.

And whats with this insulting and offensive "go back to Europe" call. Do you not remember, or simply deny what happened to the Jews in Europe?

You know there are also 1.5 million Sephardim in Israel.

Originally posted by dontreally

And whats with this insulting and offensive "go back to Europe" call.

Imagine the outrage if the same sentiment was expressed about the Muslims in Europe?

Hypocrisy and double standards.

reply to post by Freeborn


Were 6 million muslims hunted down, gassed or burnt to death, in Europe?

The memory of the Jews in Europe is gone and forgotten. Their future is where they have longed to be for the past 1800 years of their oppression and 'exile' - which is what Jews have characterized their experiences since the Romans expelled them from the land of Israel; an Exile.

reply to post by dontreally


Did the Palestinians or even Arabs in general do that?

reply to post by gravitational


What I meant is these borders are meaningless, the Palestinians can move freely throughout the West Bank.

Currently anyone can walk up the mountain range and fire a rocket at the Airport. Our borders aren't more defensible because of settlements in the Jordan valley, or the ones on the border itself as they don't cover, and can not cover the whole stretch of the border.

What does make it defensible is the big ass wall we've built.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Well you didn't show that they're not better off in Israel, you presented one incident, or one example of bigotry within Israeli society, by an Orthodox Jew towards a Greek Orthodox. Can you really base your entire conclusion on just that?

I feel that this isn't about whether or not Christians are better off in Israel than in Arab lands, but rather that saying that they are better off would imply "Israel good, Muslims bad", and that's your actual beef with the whole argument.

As for Jews hurting Christians as part of their religion- Aside from the fact that I'm amazed by the sheer bigotry and hypocrisy of that statement (you're the one preaching against generalizations of the Muslim religion, right?), I wonder what would have led you to these conclusions, is it the vast amounts of gangs of Jews beating up Christians for no reason all over the world (I am, of course, being cynical here, there is no such thing), or is it people in these forums running around saying how the Jews "think gentiles are inferior" and other bullcrap of that sort? I.e. are your conclusions based on actual facts and incidents, or simply the anti Jewish propaganda, similar to that of people saying Islam is a religion of hate and bringing so called "proof"?

Did you follow the links, did you read the site? I take it the answer is no, or you couldn't ridicule my links and boil it down to 'one incident'.
I learned from various sources that abusing religious icons (including crosses and New Testaments), the spitting thing etc are religious obligations on fundamentalist Jews. The Ha'aretz article itself says so!
Where you got that I am pro-Muslim from, I can't begin to guess.
I am anti-Zionist, and I think that the actions of the IDF towards Palestinians are apalling. Yes, before you ask, I do know Muslims, and Palestinians.
A late friend of my late brother here in Auckland, David Wakim, was a leader of a Palestinian group right here in NZ. I teach Muslims in language schools where I am a reliever.
But that doesn't make me pro-Muslim or anti Jew.
I know very few Jews here - it's a class thing. Jews in New Zealand tend to be amongst the wealthier and upper-class people, and as a working class person, I am beneath their notice.
Our present Prime Minister, John Key is Jewish and makes quite a meal out of it, although that didn't stop him going on a Christian radio station just before the election in 2008, to campaign!
However if I did know any Jews socially, I would not have an issue with them, unless they wanted to tell me that Operation Cast Lead for example was good, and right and necessary.
It was the kind of evil that Jews especially, as they want the world to feel sorry for them because of the Holocaust, should have avoided doing.
Vicky

reply to post by Eliad


because arabs dont know how to shoot over walls? Or break walls? Or dig under walls and than shoot?

Welcome to the modern age. Walls werent fullproof 2000 years ago and they are even less so now.

reply to post by dontreally


You're missing the point- The settlements contribute nothing to the safety of the border and the wall is doing a good job defending it. They can shoot over, under or through the wall with or without Israel controlling the West Bank so it really makes no difference whether or not we're there...

reply to post by Eliad


The wall – which is mainly a fence, but Israel “lovers” will always show the concrete wall part – is worth nothing without Israel's control. Remember the steel wall on Israel-Egypt- Rapha wall? Once Israel moved out of the Gaza strip, it was a matter of hours until it was torn a part.
As for the settlements, (that none are on Private Palestinian soil), every mountain that will be evacuated is going to be a potential threat to Israel's lowland. Israel already made an experiment on a grand scale when it moved out from the Gaza strip. We all know the consequences, don't we?

reply to post by Eliad


Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess.

One day you will understand these lines...

reply to post by Vicky32


I did read your links- I didn't find anything in them about the mistreatment of Christians in Israel, only the mistreatment of Palestinians in the territories, without many particular references to the Christians (I really liked the open letter, btw).
But we're not examining the occupation, we're examining the treatment of Christians within Israel, aren't we?
And why do you feel I was trying to ridicule your links? I wasn't.
Also what made you think I was suggesting you're pro Muslim, or anti Jewish? I simply suggested that your real issue with the matter is that it would make Israel look good and Arab nations look bad, I suggested that it's a narrative issue, rather than a substance issue (or I'm completely missing it.. You could copy paste a few lines that support your claims to help me understand).

I learned from various sources that abusing religious icons (including crosses and New Testaments), the spitting thing etc are religious obligations on fundamentalist Jews.

1) That's not true, the Jewish religion doesn't condone doing any of that.
2) You're talking about the extreme of the extreme, these people hate anyone that's not ultra orthodox, and they're not even Zionists, other Jews aren't like that.
3) This is exactly my point- You're the one that opened the "why are Muslims so hated" thread, and you're preaching the exact opposite when it comes to Islam, and to be honest, I find that to be a bit hypocritical.

I am anti-Zionist, and I think that the actions of the IDF towards Palestinians are apalling.

I agree, some of the things Israel has done to the Palestinians are appalling, I've never saved any criticism towards the IDF or Israel.

A late friend of my late brother here in Auckland, David Wakim, was a leader of a Palestinian group right here in NZ. I teach Muslims in language schools where I am a reliever. But that doesn't make me pro-Muslim or anti Jew.

I agree, it just makes you a person with an opinion, just like me being an Israeli doesn't make me anti Muslim, or even a Zionist. We all hold our opinions for various reasons, and I respect that, problem starts when people lose sight of that.

I know very few Jews here - it's a class thing. Jews in New Zealand tend to be amongst the wealthier and upper-class people, and as a working class person, I am beneath their notice.

And is that due to the fact that they're Jewish, or rich?
You guys sound like you have some kind of feudal society over there.. "beneath their notice"? You're either exaggerating or NZ has some social issues...
So you've never met a middle class Jew, and all upper class Jews ignore you?

Our present Prime Minister, John Key is Jewish and makes quite a meal out of it, although that didn't stop him going on a Christian radio station just before the election in 2008, to campaign!

Yeah, but does him being Jewish really have anything to do with it? Would he have been a better politician were he not Jewish? Christian politicians go on Jewish radios, don't they?
Politicians are assholes, regardless of race or religion.

However if I did know any Jews socially, I would not have an issue with them, unless they wanted to tell me that Operation Cast Lead for example was good, and right and necessary. It was the kind of evil that Jews especially, as they want the world to feel sorry for them because of the Holocaust, should have avoided doing.

So you'd be okay with a token Jew as long as they keep their mouth shut? How progressive of you..

Why must polarity rule this debate? Why is it that if someone's not 100% with you they're against you?

We're all good people at the end of the day, no one supports Israel because they like seeing Palestinian children getting killed, and no one supports Palestine because they like seeing Israeli children get killed, right? (Well, some do, but they're all assholes) Both sides have very compelling reasons to support them.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by gravitational


Wasn't trying to suggest that it's all wall, only that the wall if very good for defending from shooting.

The difference between this and Rafah is that we completely left Rafah, and here we're still patrolling the other side.

Gaza has the same kind of fence (a smart fence), and it's holding on.

The point is if they had wanted to shoot over the wall they could have regardless of the settlements or the fence, better yet they could have easily bombed the settlements which are much more easy to attack.

Even the mountain range isn't safe, as not all of the hills are settled and even the ones that are can easily be infiltrated...

Besides the strategically important settlements are meant to stay..

Getting out of the Gaza strip meant Israelis stopped dying in the Gaza strip. Can you compare the rockets to the sniper shootings, close range mortar attacks, and shootouts that were commonplace while Israel was still in Gaza?

But the West Bank isn't the Gaza strip..

And besides this isn't the right place to talk about this.

Originally posted by Eliad

And is that due to the fact that they're Jewish, or rich?
You guys sound like you have some kind of feudal society over there.. "beneath their notice"? You're either exaggerating or NZ has some social issues...
So you've never met a middle class Jew, and all upper class Jews ignore you?

So you'd be okay with a token Jew as long as they keep their mouth shut? How progressive of you..

We're all good people at the end of the day, no one supports Israel because they like seeing Palestinian children getting killed, and no one supports Palestine because they like seeing Israeli children get killed, right? (Well, some do, but they're all assholes) Both sides have very compelling reasons to support them.

With respect,
Eliad.

Thank you Eliad for your considered reply...
Years ago, in Wellington, I did know a middle class Jewish family, who were very secular! All we ever discussed was family and children - I knew them because of pre-school - I also met another couple of Jewish people - an old woman (I do mean old, she was 90 something, and more Polish than Jewish - I mean by that, that's how she considered herself - and a man who ran a bookskop I used to go into. He was rather Zionist in his views, which made conversation a bit awkward..
As for the rich ones, it's because they're rich, not Jewish - yes, we have a very class-based society here - made worse by the fact that it's denied!
The people I am talking of, including the Prime Monster, living in the stratosphere - they mix only with like-minded people - I disagree that all politicians are donkey-holes, but Key and his lot truly are - because they see themselves not as being 'ordinary New Zealanders' but 'The Elite'...
No, you're entirely wrong when you say "So you'd be okay with a token Jew as long as they keep their mouth shut?"
I'd be okay with a Jewish person who didn't try to defend killings, wars and invasions... I'd feel the same about Muslims, atheists or even Christians who did the same. (I say even Christians, because I have never met a Christian who favours war etc.. not here in NZ anyway!)
You're absolutely right - "no one supports Palestine because they like seeing Israeli children get killed, right?"
I certainly don't support anyone getting killed, especially not children.
What bothers me though, about many Israelis and Christian Zionists, is that they do seem to think that it's okay to kill Palestian children, in support of Israel expanding its borders. It's not okay.
Vicky

reply to post by Vicky32


Well, that's kind of the point, people support Israel not because they support Palestinians dying, but because they might see things differently than you- Keep in mind that this has been a long conflict, well beyond our years.

Both sides kill, both sides take an active part in this conflict, both sides have done wrong, and when you protest against Israeli actions or defend Palestinian actions, you're not advocating Palestinians killing Israelis, right? Then why wouldn't the same be true for anyone doing the same in Israel's favor?

I believe we all have much to learn from each other, I've been learning a lot about this conflict since I came here, and what I've realized is that nothing is black and white, both sides are in the wrong, and both sides have good and bad reasons to be fighting.

I've also found that the main problem is that emotion rules the discussion, rather than rationality, and that the mentality of most pro Israelis and pro Palestinians is one of "If you're not 100% on my side, you must be on the other side, and if you're on the other side you must be an evil lying son of a bitch". It's this polarity that I find so disturbing, people just don't listen to each other.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Were 6 million muslims hunted down, gassed or burnt to death, in Europe?

The memory of the Jews in Europe is gone and forgotten. Their future is where they have longed to be for the past 1800 years of their oppression and 'exile' - which is what Jews have characterized their experiences since the Romans expelled them from the land of Israel; an Exile.

What has the Holocaust got to do with Muslims for you to make that comment?

Most Jews as Askanazis and descendents of converts. They are not exiles of anything and have zero connection to the ancient Hebrews.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Were 6 million muslims hunted down, gassed or burnt to death, in Europe?

The memory of the Jews in Europe is gone and forgotten. Their future is where they have longed to be for the past 1800 years of their oppression and 'exile' - which is what Jews have characterized their experiences since the Romans expelled them from the land of Israel; an Exile.

Technically the Romans did expel the jews from Israel, but it was really YHWH giving the order. You know as well as i do that he uses other nations to punish Israel with. The Diaspora was punishment for them turning away from him and chasing after other elohim, making sacrifices and burnt offerings to them, sunworshipping and all that stuff spoken of in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Amos amoung many others.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Were 6 million muslims hunted down, gassed or burnt to death, in Europe?

The memory of the Jews in Europe is gone and forgotten. Their future is where they have longed to be for the past 1800 years of their oppression and 'exile' - which is what Jews have characterized their experiences since the Romans expelled them from the land of Israel; an Exile.

Technically the Romans did expel the jews from Israel, but it was really YHWH giving the order. You know as well as i do that he uses other nations to punish Israel with. The Diaspora was punishment for them turning away from him and chasing after other elohim, making sacrifices and burnt offerings to them, sunworshipping and all that stuff spoken of in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Amos amoung many others.

You are introducing you fiction based belief system into the discourse. As a non-fundy, you comment comes across as nothing more than superstitious nonsense.

Originally posted by MI5edtoDeath

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Were 6 million muslims hunted down, gassed or burnt to death, in Europe?

The memory of the Jews in Europe is gone and forgotten. Their future is where they have longed to be for the past 1800 years of their oppression and 'exile' - which is what Jews have characterized their experiences since the Romans expelled them from the land of Israel; an Exile.

Technically the Romans did expel the jews from Israel, but it was really YHWH giving the order. You know as well as i do that he uses other nations to punish Israel with. The Diaspora was punishment for them turning away from him and chasing after other elohim, making sacrifices and burnt offerings to them, sunworshipping and all that stuff spoken of in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Amos amoung many others.

You are introducing you fiction based belief system into the discourse. As a non-fundy, you comment comes across as nothing more than superstitious nonsense.

Thats your opinion and opinions are like assholes, everyone has them.