Beijing warns US on Taiwan arms

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
I've read most of the posts on this thread, and I must say that they are filled with misinformation. Just to clear up a few things:

China does in fact have a legitimate claim to Taiwan, going back over 300 years, which was forcefully interrupted by the Japanese then reclaimed by China after the end of WWII.

China has no issue with Taiwan's semi-independence, it does however take exception to it trying to secede. I believe the U.S can relate to the fight to keep its union whole.

The U.S has no authority with which to intervene in the affairs between China and Taiwan since the true diplomatic ties are with China the nation, one China, with teh obligation being to Beijing. As well, there is no defense of Taiwan allegiance. Fact is, the U.S is involved for one reason and one reason only in my opinion; a sovereign Taiwan would allow diplomatic arrangements with the U.S and easier military access to Asia Pacific.

Finally, economic embargo would be futile. China holds anywhere between one quarter to one half of the U.S treasury's debt.

Native Americans once owned Manhattan...but that doesent mean they will ever get it back. Germany once occupied France and many eastern european countries but no longer does. Russia once occupied many eastern block countries but no longer does. The British owned parts of France at on time. Just because you once owned something doesent mean you own it for eternity. What a pathetically weak argument on your part.

"It wasn't until 1887, that the Manchu Imperial authorities decided to declare Taiwan to be a "province" of their Empire: they wanted to outmaneuver the Japanese, who were expanding their influence to the South.

The ploy didn't work: in 1895 the Japanese defeated the Manchu's in the Sino-Japanese War, and in the Treaty of Shimonoseki, China ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity (not 99 years, like Hong Kong's New Territories, but in perpetuity, i.e. forever). "

By your claim, the British could decide to take back Hong Kong. China surrendered Taiwan to Japan but now wants the territory back. How typical of a third world country. You dont see the British demanding Hong Kong be returned. One thing the Brits have that the Chinese will never have as a whole and that is class.

As far as dumping American debt is concerned...it would have zero effect on the U.S. economy. If you sell off large volumes of debt at once you devalue your own holdings and ruin your own economy. U.S. institutions would then be able to buy back the debt at a marginal price and make a killing. It would only be to our benefit.

China has no options when it comes to Taiwan. The U.S. currently dictates their foreign policy and should China attempt to set its own military or economic policy which endangers U.S. interests, they will harm themselves more than the U.S.

Originally posted by jazzmaster

China does in fact have a legitimate claim to Taiwan, going back over 300 years, which was forcefully interrupted by the Japanese then reclaimed by China after the end of WWII.

I do not have much knowledge about Taiwan's history, so I am going to leave this one open to ludahail

China has no issue with Taiwan's semi-independence, it does however take exception to it trying to secede. I believe the U.S can relate to the fight to keep its union whole.

What semi-independence? of China allowing Taiwan to have a military force, an independent economy, and its own democratic government? More of like China cannot stop the process taking place right now. China takes every chance it has to dismiss Taiwan. At the Olympic, Taiwanese athletes were called Chinese Taipei. China cannot stand Taiwan doing what it wants to do right now, it's more like China has no control over the situation.

Consider your first statement, then your analysis above relative to same. I am sure were you to research the history of China and Taiwan you would find Beijing's policy with regard to Taiwan's governance, it's provincial treatment, as well as the origin of Taiwan's current provincial government and its ties to Beijing. I will provide some insight to you on the use of Chinese taipei, there is no excuse for you to be arguing against the centuries old history of China and Taiwan if you have no knowledge of same and have sought none. That I leave to you.: encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com...

The U.S has no authority with which to intervene in the affairs between China and Taiwan since the true diplomatic ties are with China the nation, one China, with teh obligation being to Beijing. As well, there is no defense of Taiwan allegiance. Fact is, the U.S is involved for one reason and one reason only in my opinion; a sovereign Taiwan would allow diplomatic arrangements with the U.S and easier military access to Asia Pacific.

The US has been involved with Taiwan's internal affairs since the 50s, when Taiwan was trying to establish itself. The US helped Taiwan to become a democratic country. This policy has been established since the Cold War, in which the US will help any country that wants to become democratic. I believe the Domino Theory justified this policy. Not only now the US is supporting Taiwan, it has been doing this since the 50s. The US is a world police. And I've said this before, the US wants to support Taiwan because Taiwan is a sweet piece of pie. Hey the US is actually benefiting from this right now. Right, its location in the Pacific makes Taiwan a perfect military strongold for the US in Asia.

Let me clarify your statement, the U.S has named itself the world police, the world has not done so. Nevertheless, what the U.S has decided to do as far as you see it has little bearing on the One China policy the U.S has agreed to abide by. More information that you should be seeking if you wish to argue aimed with knowledge.

Finally, economic embargo would be futile. China holds anywhere between one quarter to one half of the U.S treasury's debt.

I am not familiar with this figure, give me sometime to dig this up. Or better yet, please provide me a link to it..

The information can be found in the U.S government's economic reports. You can start with The Treasury Department - debt; Bureau of Economic reports - Trade balance, or to save time you might even try googling U.S debt to China. WTO reports, IMF reports, WBO reports. I expect that when such historical information is readily available those making commentary to the contrary conduct their own studies.

Originally posted by fawlty

Native Americans once owned Manhattan...but that doesent mean they will ever get it back. Germany once occupied France and many eastern european countries but no longer does. Russia once occupied many eastern block countries but no longer does. The British owned parts of France at on time. Just because you once owned something doesent mean you own it for eternity. What a pathetically weak argument on your part.

Argument? I made no argument previously. But while you look for one within my words, let me stop you dead in your tracks and repeat the most important words within my post:

I've read most of the posts on this thread, and I must say that they are filled with misinformation. Just to clear up a few things:

My facts are indisputable, while the one opinion I stated is simply an opinion not an argument. Had you been observant you would have noted that my statement on Taiwan�s ownership by China is directly related to the following:
[quote=Kozmo]
we don't want to have to fight with you guys so just stay the hell out of Taiwan and you'll be fine.

In that China owns Taiwan, it has every right to be �in� it.

I also provided fact relative to the embargo and this:
[quote= ThunderCloud] How about a trade embargo on the US? It would destroy their economy,�

I have supplied a factual synopsis of the U.S foreign policy relative to trade with Taiwan and China in response to:

[quote=fawlty] We have been and still are selling Taiwan advanced weapons despite your propaganda. It just isnt working Zcheng. We are doing what we want and you cant and wont do anything about it.

But if you wish to have me post an argument, then here it is: to the victor the spoils, and Taiwan is after reclaiming it from Japan, the spoil of China.

"It wasn't until 1887, that the Manchu Imperial authorities decided to declare Taiwan to be a "province" of their Empire: they wanted to outmaneuver the Japanese, who were expanding their influence to the South.

The ploy didn't work: in 1895 the Japanese defeated the Manchu's in the Sino-Japanese War, and in the Treaty of Shimonoseki, China ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity (not 99 years, like Hong Kong's New Territories, but in perpetuity, i.e. forever). "

Is that where you history knowledge starts and ends?

By your claim, the British could decide to take back Hong Kong

China surrendered Taiwan to Japan but now wants the territory back. How typical of a third world country. You dont see the British demanding Hong Kong be returned. One thing the Brits have that the Chinese will never have as a whole and that is class.

I compare apples to apples not apples to nuts, and as alluded to above, your historical perspective is sorely lacking.

As far as dumping American debt is concerned...it would have zero effect on the U.S. economy. If you sell off large volumes of debt at once you devalue your own holdings and ruin your own economy. U.S. institutions would then be able to buy back the debt at a marginal price and make a killing. It would only be to our benefit.

Sell it? Now there is an interesting but rather unworldly appreciation of global finance. Why would China sell its banking stake in the U.S, one that the treasury department relies heavily upon for the purchasing of the very instruments necessary to raise funds, and to whom would they sell it? Were it that easy, the Chinese would not be such a significant securities holder as the rest of the world would have anteed up the loan. The U.S cannot buy it back, it does not have the funds to do so unless you think they are willing to part with bullion. Simply put, no government borrows money for the sake of paying out in excess of what was borrowed just for the hell of it.

China has no options when it comes to Taiwan. The U.S. currently dictates their foreign policy and should China attempt to set its own military or economic policy which endangers U.S. interests, they will harm themselves more than the U.S.

Is that so?

Originally posted by jazzmaster

China has no issue with Taiwan's semi-independence, it does however take exception to it trying to secede. I believe the U.S can relate to the fight to keep its union whole.

What semi-independence? of China allowing Taiwan to have a military force, an independent economy, and its own democratic government? More of like China cannot stop the process taking place right now. China takes every chance it has to dismiss Taiwan. At the Olympic, Taiwanese athletes were called Chinese Taipei. China cannot stand Taiwan doing what it wants to do right now, it's more like China has no control over the situation.

Please read more information on current Chinese policy on Taiwan. Officially it is called "One nation, Two System". It is applied to Hong Kong since 1997. But the Autonomy of Taiwan will be way greater than Hong Kong.

Yes, China will allow Taiwan to have a military force, an independent economy, and its own democratic elected government, and no tax to central government.

"Chinese Taipei" is international recognition that Taiwan is part of China. Everyone knows that Hong Kong is part of China, now so their team is just called "Hong Kong". The team from Taiwan is called "Chinese Taipei", because many people like you do not know that simple fact. "Chinese Taipei" is just an emphasis of that fact.

[edit on 31-8-2004 by zcheng]

QUOTE: But if you wish to have me post an argument, then here it is: to the victor the spoils, and Taiwan is after reclaiming it from Japan, the spoil of China.
China did not defeat Japan on its own,were it not for US. You probably forget it is those the two big atomic bombs dropped over on Japan that really settled the score. Following your own logic, US could overtake China as a spoil anytime it wants to.

Originally posted by PlatoAthens
QUOTE: But if you wish to have me post an argument, then here it is: to the victor the spoils, and Taiwan is after reclaiming it from Japan, the spoil of China.
China did not defeat Japan on its own,were it not for US. You probably forget it is those the two big atomic bombs dropped over on Japan that really settled the score. Following your own logic, US could overtake China as a spoil anytime it wants to.

US lost thousands when attacked the Island of Okinawa. See following:

"Japan had lost more than the battle. A total of 109,629 Japanese soldiers were killed. 3,500 of those killed were kamikazes. 7,821 of Japan�s soldiers were taken as Prisoners of War(Hithcock 2). Because of the culture of the Japanese soldier an unknown amount of the Japanese soldiers committed suicide during the battle("The Battle of Okinawa" 2). The United States endured a significantly smaller number of casualties than did Japan. 12,250 United States soldiers were killed, along with 36,361 whom were wounded. Thirty U.S ships were sunk as well as 223 damaged ships(Hitchcock 2). August sixth of 1945, after the island was secured, the United States demonstrated their power by dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. Three days later this power was again exposed when the bomb was dropped on Nagasaki ending the war in the Pacific("Okinawa Chronology 1945-1972" 2)."
www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us...

It was due to the heavy loss of this battle, that US figured how many would loss if US attacked 4 Japan main islands. US finally decided to drop two nuke tombs to minimize US casualty.

The main forces of Japan Army were in China Theater.

That's about all China will do. Flap them lips!

BTW, can anyone here tell me how the Chinese gets dog and catmeat to look like chicken and shrimp? Just wondering.

P.S. Zcheng, I'll holler at'cha later! Going to go play some billiards without permission from my government.

Man, I know I shouldn't rub it in your face, but I just couldn't help myself. I'll admit, I'm weak.

[edit on 17/9/04 by Intelearthling]