Originally posted by poet1b
For the past two centuries, the "overthrowing of elites" has seen white colonial powers, one after another, thrown down. Liberty for the masses
has been wrested from the hands of the British, the French, the Spanish, the Americans, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Italians, and the Germans, all
of whom refused it.
As if no whites ever supported the ending of Colonial powers. As if there have not been many battles fought within European states to establish and
maintain liberty. As if labor unions haven't fought the powers that be on numerous occasions for worker's rights. As if white people in American
didn't support the Civil Rights Movement, and oppose the Vietnam war. You will have to do better than this false claim.
You were claiming that "fighting for liberty" is an exclusively white thing. This is obviously false. I countered by pointing out that for most of the
last two centuries, the "fight for liberty" has primarily been nonwhites seeking liberty from the tyranny of European powers.
I did not say it was exclusive
- that sort of thing is your department, not mine.
Did whites support the ending of colonial power? Yeah, but not nearly enough to actually accomplish anything. No European power relinquished any
colonies until those colonies just became too expensive, either in terms of money or blood.
This is the same story we can tell about Vietnam; the anti-war movement accomplished nothing (this story was repeated thirty years later by the
anti-war movement against Iraq.) Both these wars ground on, heedless of any protest, until the people in charge of the wars concluded that the
cost-benefit ratio was no longer in their favor.
And the history of race relations as it pertains to the labor movement could be exceedingly interesting, but would take damn near forever.
Didn't say other cultures have not done the same things, only that whites have been more successful.
No, you have, in the threads, claimed that only whites have done these things. In this one, you directly declared that nonwhites have never done
Do you think whites deserve any credit for anything?
Tell you the truth, I don't really think about it all that much until someone like you comes in and tries to tell me that the white race is the
superior race, and the rest of us are primitive do-nothing mud people.
This is a pretty vague question, however. Do you mean sole
credit? 'Cause the old world was a pretty big mixing pot of cultural memes and
scientific discoveries. if you do mean sole credit, the answer is no; and that goes for all the races of the world. Every major achievement has been
either independently arrived at by numerous cultures (such as agriculture, astronomy, and written language) or has built on layers of achievements by
previous cultures (navigation, banking, the nation-state). There's really no exclusive "this race, and only this race, deserves credit for this
White I can tell you is that perhaps Europeans don't deserve quite all the credit you give them. Know why Europeans have been dominant for the last
500 years? Not because of any inherent superiority, but because Spain got lucky.
See, Spain reached the Americas before the Turks or the Malinese did. The immense wealth it harvested there enabled Spain to basically sever all trade
connections with competing powers such as the Ottomans, the Venetians, and the Malinese. Spain's enemies, France and England followed suit in an
effort to keep Spain from becoming too powerful relative to them. It essentially became an arms race, and it was also probably the first global
depression; inflation soared sky-high in Europe, while the economy crashed among Europe's former trade partners.
Second, the natives of the Americas couldn't resist the plagues that came from contact with the old world (and no, not blaming whites here; these
plagues would have come no matter who reached the new world first.) In fact the entire political dynamic of both continents was turned on its head
decades before Europeasn ever laid eyes on most of the nations. The Inka and Aztec were not defeated by the Spanish, but by smallpox (the Inka in fact
had been fighting a civil war in response to a smallpox outbreak that killed the emperor and his two successors, twenty years before Pizarro showed
Thus there was just no one to resist the incoming waves of colonists from Europe. So European nations were fully able to exploit the resources of the
two continents, unlike in the old world colonies, where, even with all their new world wealth, they were never able to actually hold very much
Had Mali landed boats in the Antilles first, or the ottomans, or had the Chinese really landed on California, you would probably be extolling the
solitary magnificence of the black, or Turkish, or Asian race.
Europeans happened to hit the financial jackpot first. pretty much everything you see in Europe past 1500 is a result of that Jed Clampett-style lucky
There are many many things the many diverse cultures of Europe have in common that can be identified as white culture. You can change the name,
but it doesn't change the fact. Just as there a great many different types of cats, they all have certain traits in common.
if you want to tell me the virtues of white culture, you might not want to compare them to a species of weasel best-known for urinating on the carpet,
who need to be spayed en masse to prevent disease and overpopulation.
I'm not a cat person
You have yet to exhibit any
of these common traits. Tell me, what makes an Irish person culturally the same as a Lapp, who is the same as a
Sicilian, who is the same as an Icelander, culturally speaking?
Once again, no where do I "tear down other cultures", assert "that non-whites have never done anything", and you are the one who comes off as
the pupil of the elites. If you are going to make these claims about my opinion, then provides some quotes to back up your claims. You don't do this,
because this argument you keep making has no basis in reality. It is pure projection on your part.
I did quote you saying exactly that. Seriously, pay attention to what you write. Also you might want to look up such literary terms as "context" and
I learned about Jackson's role in ordering the Trail of Tears in grade school. Maybe I went to a better school than you did.
Could be. There's a pretty huge disparity between the quality of history taught in schools. Fortunately for me, I'd learned about Jackson before I
even went to school. I'm Choctaw, and some of my however-great grandparents were witness to him personally threatening them with genocide at Dancing
I still can't figure out how he's on the $20 bill. Can't John Adams get a little love?
I don't know who John Brown is,
That's quite a shame.
but we did cover Fredrick Douglas. Maybe it was what I paid attention to in class that is the difference, and not the school.
Could be. interesting thing is that John Brown and Fredrick Douglass were, if not friends, then at least pen pals.
While the white working class isn't doing nearly as well as we were a little over a decade ago, we are still doing much better than the rest of
the world, with a few exceptions when you compare all of the U.S. with much smaller sections of the world.
And the million-dollar question is, do you know why?
So far as I can tell, you assume it's simply because white people are better people.
That's the wrong answer. I'll give you time to make a good guess.
By the way, most working class whites don't want to go to the country club. They would rather go fishing. You sure make a whole lot of
judgments against people of whom you know nothing.
I didn't literally mean going to a country club, but rather the mindset that tells the working-class whites that their skin color makes them part of
You brought up that whites stood with blacks in the civil rights movement. And you're right, I'm not going to deny those individuals who really did
risk their lives to do this. My question is, why was there even a need for a civil rights movement? Why did America have
a century-old system
of segregation? Why
were little girls threatened, even killed because they were going to school in this time period?
The hurtful truth, is that it's because this system was actually very popular with the whites in America. It gave them power over other people. No
matter how bad a white guy had it, he was still legally "better" than any black man in the nation. When that was threatened by desegregation and the
civil rights movement, some people thought the idea of having power over others on basis of skin color was worth killing over.
Even though the age of segregation has passed, the entitlement mindset has not. You don't get rid of that sort of thing in a few years, sad to say. So
even today, many, many white people still vote against their own self-interests, and pit themselves against nonwhites, as a result of that cultural
ingraining. of course not all, by any stretch. Bu enough to still have significant impact.
Umm, if you paid any attention, you would know that I see Dick Cheney as the embodiment of evil, Darth Cheney would be a better name for him.
The same type of elites convince the gullible that there are 72 virgins in heaven waiting for them if they blow themselves up in the name of
You sure? 'Cause i'll bet he's even whiter than you are, and thus by your own arguments, is a much superior heir to all that wonderful and awesome and
flawless perfect goodness of "white culture." Perhaps he was misled by the Jews and negros?
It is people like you spreading propaganda lies, even if you think you are right, who help encourage the lies that convince people it is ok to
blow up women and children in the market.
Really? Me telling you that your claims that all good in the world stems exclusively from white people is factually incorrect, is comparable to
telling someone to commit mass murder.
I think Godwin's Law needs a new amendment.
It is not me who is trying to wrap chains around my neck, it is tools like you who spread propaganda and thereby serve the elites who is trying
to bring the down fall of the working class, irregardless of color.
The guy telling everyone that white people, and ONLY white people, have any worth in terms of culture or achievement, is accusing me of spreading
The Torch of Knowledge is there for you to grasp, but first you must put aside your prejudices.
You made me giggle.
edit on 19-1-2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)