Christians are becoming social pariahs in Britain, claims BBC presenter Jeremy Vine

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by undo

 

eh, once you mix faith with physics, you get an unfortunate mixture. It means man can kill God. And if God is above all things, he would not need a singularity. He could just speak it into existing.

but technology can already do that. you just hook up a computer with voice recognition software or brain-computer interface, rig it into a matter teleportation device like ibm's quantum teleporter, tell it or think it to create a cup of tea, and it just copies the pattern of a cup of tea. scary ain't it? i realize you're saying hes doing the same thing without technology, but i just wanted to add yet another example of how science has defined laws of the universe which are described as god's supernatural powers. it's getting really quite scifi-ish out there atm.

i just want to thank you again for drawing my attention to the ergosphere. i recall reading about this before, just been awhile and i have leaky short term memory. i remember when i first saw a diagram of it, how much it reminded me of an eye. i had recently finished reading the legend of the destruction of mankind, an ancient egyptian text, in which the eye of ra destroyed life on the planet with a flood of red water. a theory developed that it was connected to the ancient story of the great bull of heaven, and so forth. long story short, it seemed to be pointing to the eye of ra being the same thing as the gate of the gods.

reply to post by undo


There are several clues in the bible that before the flood, the world was quite modern. Ever realize that Noah had three sons? Think about it. What person had only three kids in those days? Such low numbers only occur in modern societies with advanced technology. We also see that Noah's arc is described as being made of a type of wood which we cannot find today. Roughly translated, you get something along the lines of laminated wood or hexagon-shaped multi-layered wafers. Don't really sound like a boat made of wood to me. Some, and I would almost bet you too, would claim it was a DNA ship. This is possible. But the Bible describes living animals coming on board. The only way possible for this would be something bigger on the inside than on the outside. We also have no idea how much a cubit really is. I just guessed it would be the size of a man, a la the vitruvian man. That's a huge freaking boat. We also see that the "whole world" was divided in the names of some people. And we only need to recall the age of these people. These indicate a very advanced society. I would imagine that if you ate from the tree of knowledge, you would know all the secrets of heaven. Assasin's creed did something like this. Here, just for a laugh, is what they did for the Apple of Eden:


So as to sci fi, it is very likely they were quite advanced up to the destruction of their people. And that just means God was all the more.

reply to post by Gorman91


You do realize Noah's global flood never happened, right? There would be sedimental evidence...yet there is NONE that would indicate a global flood. Obviously 2 of each kind in a single boat is a bit silly too

In the bible they pretend it's a global flood, but it was a LOCAL flood at best

reply to post by MrXYZ


There would not be any geological evidence. It's only a year. sediment levels stretch for millions of years. Anything left would have been blown away. However, there is some evidence that something happened at the end of the ice age that could be called a flood.

Roughly 8,000 years ago, or 6,000 BC, there was a rapid heat build up out of no where for a brief moment of time. Higher than our own level today, but ever so slightly. As if every plant just stopped working for a while. And there was an excess of clouds from extra water in the hydro cycle.

www.geocraft.com...

And, as I said, Noah's ark was not some wooden boat. It was something more. And even if it was a boat, it had to be bigger on the inside than on the outside.

I see no reason why a God with all the power in the universe would be incapable of altering the laws of the universe to make something bigger on the inside than on the outside. However, judging from the sudden rapid build up of CO2 all those eons ago, which closely resembles our own graph of CO2 build up, I would say it is reasonable to say it was something more than a boat.

In fact, the actual reading of the construction begs to question how it could be a boat. If one actually constructs it according to the directions, it looks like something Tadao Ando would have designed. The closest analogy would be the Koshino House.

Noah's arch is remarkably beautiful from a modernist standpoint. And if one would create it, the inside would look like this:

arquitectura.programasok.com...



Now there's a full range of possibilities. We could have passed by a fast moving cloud of water vapor in the galaxy, we could have had an earthquake that ruptures underground oceans. There's certainly enough water down there. We could have had a sudden heat stroke that melted everything and an ice meteor and then a solar event blow away the excess. Such combinations of events have happened. in fact, they caused our evolution.

reply to post by Gorman91


So you are seriously claiming if there was a global flood, we wouldn't find any evidence to back it up other than the bible....riiiiiiiiight

Look, even if all the ice melted, it still wouldn't call a global flood. There isn't enough water on earth to cause a global flood, and since it's a pretty much closed system, saying a global flood happened is deluding yourself.

As for the arch, you are SPECULATING!! We have NO indication that what you say happened...other than the bible, and we know how many flawed concepts are in the bible

reply to post by Gorman91


So Noah's ark was the tardis.. are you for real?

Besides the problems of incestuous mating causing horrific birth defects after a few generations (for Noah's family as well as the animals), animals eating each other, animal waste products, dead animal carcases and the problem of where the food all came from.

You also have the problem of plant life. How did plant life survive? Did he take any insects on board? Did he take any birds on board? How did he stop them flying away? You also have to take into account the fact that not all animals can survive in the same habitat. How did Noah get penguins from the North Pole, elephants from Africa, kangaroos from Australia etc. etc. all to arrive in the Middle East at roughly the same time.

(inb4 god works in mysterious ways)

reply to post by MrXYZ


Are the concepts flawed or are the people reading it? When the Dorians took over Upper Greece, they couldn't understand what they Macedonians were doing. Civilization made no sense to them. So they gave up on it and had to restart. Same with the Egyptians after their first collapse.

The fact that something seems wrong does not make it wrong. As a scientific fellow you should know this all the more. After all, we rejected evolution for the longest time because we could not wrap our minds around it.

There's enough water on the surface of the planet to cover the US in 90 miles of water. That means you could spread to something 10 x the size of the US and still have 10 miles deep. Mt. Everest is 5 miles high. The addition of underground seas, such as the one in Asia as big as the arctic ocean, makes it pretty damn close.

www.lifeslittlemysteries.com...

ga.water.usgs.gov...

reply to post by Griffo




Bible says an outside source helped out. They were there before and after the flood to create more humans. Not to mention if we go with Noah's arc being a tardis, then I think cloning is the least of their problems. Fighting? Other problems? Remember. If it's technology, those problems are not as bad. besides. God has no rules. So if it's not tech, why does it matter?

reply to post by Gorman91


But what you're doing isn't scientific at all. The only pseudo-evidence you have is the bible, nothing else backs up a global flood or your arch hypothesis.

You're doing the same people who claim when god created the heavens and the earth in 7 days, it wasn't really 7 days...it was some crazy god days that last longer...just so the bible in their mind would still fit the facts. That's called SPECULATING...and what's worse, you're not even basing it on credible evidence.

And like I said, even if the flood only lasted a year, we'd have sedimental evidence. For crying out loud, we can pinpoint the exact years of volcanic eruptions that happened thousands of years ago! And the point still stands, what about the plants and soil? You do realize the soil would be inhospitable to plants (and animals) after being contaminated by salt, right?

The entire theory has zero credible evidence, and you even need to twist and turn the original story to make it remotely possible...not that it matters, like I said, everything you mentioned would have left evidence behind. No evidence = no arch = no global flood

reply to post by Gorman91


You can't break the laws of physics at will, god or no god. The point is, there are many contradictions that arise around the Noah's ark concept. You can't just say God did it a) because that's not how things work and b) because I 'inb4d' it

reply to post by MrXYZ


Well A, I'm not claiming it's true. And I am not going to because, as you said, there is not much evidence. But there is some, and I am showing you it.

And B, If God is all powerful, outside of time, and everywhere, he can create the world in 6 days. In fact, Jesus said that God's work never ended. I take that as a clue that when God said he created something on a certain day, he created everything that ever existed, including what has yet to exist, on that day. IE, He's outside of time. He can become entangled in his own timeline.

reply to post by Griffo


The laws always have loop holes. IE, if you put an ergosphere behind you and a singularity in front of you, you could break the light speed barrier, as long as you and the two if them are somehow connected. There's plenty of ways to bend the rules. And if you're God, you don't play by them to begin with.

reply to post by Gorman91


Whatever makes it fit, right

Look, you're falling into the god of the gaps trap. You're trying to explain things you can't explain with MAGIC! As long as you realize that what you're claiming isn't based on rationality/logic, and it makes you happy, it's all good. I just hope you're not one of the people who say creationism or Noah's flood story should be taught in history classes...because they're not based on historic evidence

reply to post by MrXYZ


There's no gap though. A gap is saying that there is a point A and a point B and something needs to fill it. I am saying God is point A and Point B and there is nothing in between.

Also not history classes. Religion classes. All students should learn about the religions that govern the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and the relationship between Confucianism and Taoism. These are the big ones that govern how most people think and react and it is simply common sense to teach them and their derivatives so kids understand their world.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

There's no gap though. A gap is saying that there is a point A and a point B and something needs to fill it. I am saying God is point A and Point B and there is nothing in between.

Also not history classes. Religion classes. All students should learn about the religions that govern the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and the relationship between Confucianism and Taoism. These are the big ones that govern how most people think and react and it is simply common sense to teach them and their derivatives so kids understand their world.

You are still filling an unknown with MAGIC...which by its very definition is the god of the gaps concept.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Unless you think it's magic. But then again, like I said above, those who don't understand something call it magic. So what could I possibly say? Other than you prove that humanity is like that? Thanks, I guess?

reply to post by Gorman91


You have to think, how much worse off we as a species would be if we just explained everything away as "god did it."

Bend the rules yes, not outright break them.

Originally posted by Griffo
reply to post by Gorman91

 

You have to think, how much worse off we as a species would be if we just explained everything away as "god did it."

edit on 24/1/2011 by Griffo because: (no reason given)

We'd still believe the earth is flat, that wizards (lol) are evil, gays are evil, you can beat your slave if he lives another day before dying, the sun turns around the earth, the earth was created before the sun...and a ton of other nonsense.

Re MrXYZ

But you see, that when majic is implied, this ofcourse not only concerns purely scientific concepts, it includes anything else. So majic also overrides semantic rules, pragmatism, formal logic and epistemology.

So anyone wanting to push his/her special mindset only has to establish a position of being the resident specialist on theoretical and applied majic.

These days being 'bigger, holier, meeker or even more ranting than you' is retrograde.

Being 'majicker than you' is the future for any up-and-coming solipsist without an interest or talent for the oldfashioned method of gathering and validating evidence.

And the best about it is that majic has to be DISPROVED, not PROVED.

reply to post by Griffo


With "God doing it"? Depends. I think everything I do is God doing it. So I guess I would just be the same.

The world would not be different if everyone was an atheist or everyone was catholic or everyone was Muslim. Liberals would still be liberals and Conservatives would still be conservatives.

Breaking the rules? Why can't we break them? Doesn't that imply some sort of programmer? I'm me. I can break anything I want, given enough knowledge, money, and people.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Muslims believed the world was round. The three wisemen were wizards by some standards, Romans and Greeks both had massive numbers of gays, and to quote the word of the times, "Men are for pleasure, women are for children". Religion didn't change this view. Just another religion came around with a different view on it. Also, slavery means different things to different religions. To me, any situation where you are treated less than your worth, means you're a slave. That doesn't justify beating them, nor do I see what you mean by that because I've not seen a religion say that yet. And again, Christianity said nothing on the Sun and Moon. Greek tradition did. Plenty of religions and cultures say differently. Nonesense usually comes from misinformation and incorrect ideas.

To put it simple, you're generalizing. And that's ignorant, to say the least.