Christians are becoming social pariahs in Britain, claims BBC presenter Jeremy Vine

Re Undo

Sorry, I'm a very private person, so I'm just northern european in general.

As to my ideological 'label' it's very long (until I settle on a short comprehensible one). I'm a metaphysicist with a strong preference for scientific methodology. My aim is a synthesis of science and the 'invisible' part of existence, manifesting presently under the neutral name 'anomalies'.

Ironically I have actually had EXTENSIVE experiences of fairies, demons, ETs and hyperdimensionals (though sofar not the flying spaghetti monster), so I'm either stark raving mad (I have ofcourse been medically tested, but the doctors said, that I'm relatively sane and healthy. In other words just like most people). Or having unusual perception mechanisms.

So I believe in weird things (except the flying spaghetti monster), but I refuse to interpretate them, which is one of my main objections to religionist extremists. They have a few experinces (or sometimes even only doctrines) and spend a lifetime defending a practically predetermined answer supported by invented 'evidence' on the way. The cart before the horse.

Socially I would be just as unpleasant to any extremist threatening my liberal culture, as I am to christian-right fundies now (I see them as the main threat in this period).

Night' folks

Originally posted by The Djin
Ah I see a mod in his/her wisdom has chosen to move this thread from Conspiracy In Religions to Social Issues which begs the question as to why ?

Do I carry on here at the risk of being banned by a christian moderator ?

To judge by past experience, the reverse (atheist mods banning Christians) is far more likely.. It happens, a lot! (I don't mean here on ATS - though my observation is that atheists get a free ride here - ) but elsewhere...
Vicky

reply to post by bogomil



whenever I have anything to do with Christians, I usually end up thinking something along the lines of Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


In what the Christians call the “good book” which is about a god, Christians call loving you can find delightful passages like this

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (English Standard Version)
Marrying Female Captives
10"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and(A) lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14But if you no longer delight in her, you shall(B) let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you(C) treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

you have to wonder about the message this sends to young minds and how this paradox warps world views

reply to post by racasan


the old testament is mostly a conglomeration of historical writings regarding the system of HUMAN laws, most of which were mosaic laws not laws of god. you might consider it, the legal library of ancient people. if you think that law's bad, you should see some of the laws of the surrounding cultures of the timeframe. the problem arose when the people began to think of moses' word as perpetually divine in nature. he coulda said literally anything, and no one would've argued with him, similar to how people treat the epistles of paul. .

reply to post by The Djin


Now if only this would start happening in America, maybe we could make some technological and health breakthroughs without all the crybaby xians.

reply to post by totalmetal


can you give a few more details about this medical and technological
subject you refer to?

reply to post by bogomil


i think the terminology of the biblical references of various types of supernatural / extra-terrestrial/ other dimensionals/ spirit beings is basically the same as those indicated in the ancient writings of other cultures and of the more modern writings of today. to me, this looks like one gigantic misunderstanding, exacerbated by language and cultural distances + long spans of time. and as people are prone to do, it's interpreted either too literally in some cases or not literally enough in other cases.

reply to post by undo


hi undo
my point is that when people call the bible, good or holy and its full of such writing, then what damaging effect does that do to people?

I sometimes think that far too much mental energy is used by the believer to maintain the cognitive dissonance needed to be a believer, and this is why they are such sheep, never examining the evil things which actually comprise their belief system

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by The Djin
Ah I see a mod in his/her wisdom has chosen to move this thread from Conspiracy In Religions to Social Issues which begs the question as to why ?

Do I carry on here at the risk of being banned by a christian moderator ?

To judge by past experience, the reverse (atheist mods banning Christians) is far more likely.. It happens, a lot! (I don't mean here on ATS - though my observation is that atheists get a free ride here - ) but elsewhere...
Vicky

What do you mean by a free ride ?

I get the impression that because your beliefs have culturally been respected and gone unchallenged for so long you expect the same here.ATS T&Cs don't take beliefs into consideration and you don't seem to grasp this concept.

Remember that it is you that responds to a thread like this, no one is forcing you and by entering into the debate you are implying that your beliefs fit the description of what is being discussed .

All you have to do is prove your case which you fail to do time and again, perhaps because most (but not all admittedly) opposition uses reason to debate which it would appear that you simply cannot grasp the idea of.

Do you ever ask yourself the question of why are you actually here on ATS ? Having listened to and read what your religion has to say and observed what it has done I really cannot imagine why you are here other than to attempt to convert us infidels to your way of thinking.

After all why would an xtian wish to get into the intricacies and debate of conspiracy when you preach and claim to believe that you were born into one , why are you so interested in what the devil is doing ?

So if conversion is your intention then fire away but stop throwing your toys in the dirt when you are shown to be speaking from an intellectual vacuum.

reply to post by racasan


most christians (especially females) don't read the old testament (other than sunday school lessons (noah and the ark, daniel in the lion's den, esther and mordecai, parting of the red sea), as they view it as a scary series of books, filled with confusing historical references, exceedingly different from the teachings of yeshua. this could explain why these two things can co-exist without serious contemplation as to how the data should be viewed in context.

i don't think anyone starts out in their christian walk, reading the words of moses, but rather the words of yeshua, which can keep you quite busy, all on their own.

I wouldn't say that Christians are becoming social pariahs at all..... It's just that in a secular society, like the UK, people object to being preached at and lectured on morality and other issues.

We don't care what god would do or what is the Christian way of doing things... It's irrelevant.


Keep it to yourselves...keep it in your churches and homes, we don't want it.


In the same way we don't want any religious crap out in public.

Nobody likes to be told how to live their lives and what some make believe character wants them to do... It's just intrusive and offensive.



The UK is slowly becoming religion free.... and this is a good thing.

A secular society is a good thing.

reply to post by The Djin


lol i live in the usa. it may be different in britain, but in the usa, christianity has been a source of ridicule for as long as i can remember. it hasn't given me any social advantages, but quite the opposite. i'm 52 years old, so that should give you some idea how long this has been true, in the usa (at least from my perspective).

reply to post by blupblup


the irony of your statement is you just TOLD THEM WHAT TO DO, and then told them not to tell you what to do. can't have it both ways.

I don't believe that we are moving to a secular society . People are joining other religions like paganism. I do believe that the church of England is in numerical decline but is still highly influential maybe Mr Vine is reponding to these trends.

I also believe that we are becoming a lot more tolerant and overall a bit more caring which is not a bad thing.

reply to post by undo




LOL....


Na, I didn't tell them..... just saying what the general feeling in the UK is.

I am not saying they should do that, just suggesting it... that way, they may not be offended and feel like outcasts.


Plenty of recent studies have been done here as it seems to be a big issue... the vast majority see religion as an issue... It's divisive and intrusive.



There's many, many surveys and much info on this.

But seriously, Britain is like the REM track..... We're Losing our religion.

And it's great


www.guardian.co.uk...

According to ‘Religious Trends No 7 (2007-2008)’ published by Christian Research, overall church attendance in the United Kingdom has diminished rapidly in terms of percentages and in real terms.
In 1990 5,595,600 people, representing 10% of the UK population, regularly attended Church, by 2005 this number had reduced to 3,926,300, equating to 6.7% of the UK population By 2015, the level of church attendance in the UK is predicted to fall to 3,081,500 people, or 5% of the population. The Church of England’s own attendance figures, attest to the decline; between 2002 and 2008, average Sunday attendance figures have diminished from 1,005,000 to 960,000.

www.humanism.org.uk...

Originally posted by tiger5
I also believe that we are becoming a lot more tolerant and overall a bit more caring which is not a bad thing.

i don't think the stereotype word "we" is applicable in this example you've provided. some people are just mean, grumpy, spiteful and selfish, no matter what their world view is. and some people are not. and some people have good days/years and bad days/years.

christians are people just like everyone else. holding up an entire group of people for ridicule or praise, is not a good idea as it is invariably going to be proven wrong or right at the personal level, making such statements (referring to your comment i've quoted), half truths or outright lies to those who have experienced differently.

i address this same comment to the people who seem to think being a christian makes you instantly guilty of anything any christian or christian poser has done in the history of the world (including stuff jewish or jewish posers have done) for the last 6000 years. it's a tough bar to hurdle and certainly shouldn't be further exacerbated by suggesting there's an applicable blanket statement available for any group of people (christians included)

reply to post by undo


Well there are a series of social indicators and opinion poles that could probably back my claim. ALos the laws have changed to make certain acts of hostility (verbal) illegal. We have lawsa for the treatment of animals etc. We cannot even smack our kids.

Compare nowadays with say the 70s which was a violent and cruel time behind the hippy ideals.

Rgds
T

reply to post by blupblup


too late. already revealed your hand. you want people who's opinion differs from your own, to shut up. that is not freedom, nor does it dispaly an interest in basic human rights to freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by blupblup

 

too late. already revealed your hand. you want people who's opinion differs from your own, to shut up. that is not freedom, nor does it dispaly an interest in basic human rights to freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

Eh?

What?

LOL


I did not say that....

But if that's what you took from it, that's fine.

The UK is nothing like America.

We don't have religious channels... we don't have the whole "born-again-christian" thing... seriously, religion is not a big deal here... It's nothing like America.
People are free to practice any religion they like and so they should be.... but don't push it anyone else... don't harass people or don't lecture them about your morals and your beliefs... there's no place for it.

I am not telling people who have a different opinion to me to shut up, I'm saying religion has no place in public... there is no reason to spout religious nonsense at people and there's no room for it in business as this story recently proved.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


The UK is finally shedding it's religious shackles and that is a good thing.... that is my point.

reply to post by blupblup


religion has no place in public? that's what freedom of speech is.
it's not just for the people you agree with.