Abductionist Scandal

Originally posted by flightsuit
I definitely intend to read the article when I'm more awake and able to give it my full attention. Until then, I'll say this: I know people who've had the abduction experience and who have never been anywhere near Budd Hopkins or any other hypnotist.

Then what you're saying is that you accepted hearsay which means you are a gullible believer. And we know that gullibility exists because the gullible does not require evidence. Wanna hear about the beautiful blonde, tall, sexy female alien that abducted me? I haven't returned yet and I don't plan to!

reply to post by jritzmann


The question was intended for the previous poster who asked my credentials to express an opinion. I just wanted to set the record straight. Of course I am interested in all the opinions expressed by the experts out there. Not all psychologists agree on everything though.

I certainly agree with your point that we cannot discern between confabulation and real authentic memories (and neither can the person who experiences this from what I understand). So, yes, since hypnosis can result in confabulated memories, and we can't discern the difference then the data is suspect.

But that is the case with all memory recall. A witness to a murder as an example. How do you know for certain that the witness is accurately recalling the real event? Key information could be confabulated. But we don't just disregard all memory and all witness testimony because it may contain confabulation.

I would agree that hypnosis may increase the generation of confabulated memories, although this may be partially due to the situation. The suggestion that the technique will itself lead to the access of "repressed memories" may subconsciously influence the person's tendency to confabulate to "fill in" what can't be recalled.

I would agree with you that given the questions around the usefullness of hypnosis as a technique for memory retrieval, it would be adviseable to refrain from using it in this manner,

With regards to the use of hypnosis by non-professional psychologists, I am not sure if a blanket ban on hypnosis by non-professional psychologists is required. It is similar to many questions surrounding the rights of anyone to practice this or that medicine, dispense herbal remedies, etc. I know that hypnosis is taught outside of regular medical faculties in universities so that might be a question of government regulated certification of these programs. I'm quite happy to leave that debate to the various practicing trained persons in the medical field.

I have gone through hypnosis once, and my experience left me thinking "is that all there is to it?" You just sit in a chair, relax, breathe slowly and deeply. Maybe I am just a lousy subject but I didn't sense anything abnormal about it whatsever. So I guess I am a big sceptic when it comes to some of the extrordinary claims with regards to the "alleged powers of hypnosis". I seriously doubt that it could be used to create "deadly Manchurian candidates", except in those types of people who already will follow any order or suggestion.

While I understand your comments are specifically directed at those who use hypnosis in investigation of "alien abduction" memories, are you suggesting that those involved in the investigation of reports of "alien abductions" should leave this entirely up to investigation by trained psychologists? How about those investigating UFOs since the two types of incidents are often connected?

I know from experience that you can run into people with real mental problems if you are involved in such investigations. I certainly try to limit my investigations to asking questions, recording and reporting the responses, although I have had one experience where I suggested the person see a doctor because this person was experiencing ongoing trauma. Unfortunately the professionals were unable to provide any assistance or diagnosis to the person.

Anyways, I do think this is an interesting discussion to have but I just feel that some people seem to get carried away with emotional reactions in what should (or could) be a reasoned discussion.

reply to post by The Shrike


I had a very interesting experience with hypnosis about 20 years ago. It was thee ONE time I ever underwent hypnosis in my life. These were some ufo people (laymen) at a conference I attended. I will just say, that when I was in the Air Force, I saw something extremely unusual, that I cannot consciously fully recall, --most-- likely due to the traumatic trouble I was in, in regards to such. I know how vague that sounds. Intentionally so, It's a giant'ly long story, not meant for a forum post. Well, some of these conference people tried to regress me, with my permission. It was HORRIBLE. I bawled like an infant. I did not expect to, I did not want to, and when I came----to, I wanted to go crawl under the earth to never be seen and heard from again. I wonder, now, if my regression would have been for the commonly known 'abduction' would they have been able to lead me into providing scenarios instead of crying. Everyone else was surprised and taken aback as I was.

reply to post by bluestreak53


Please listen to the free and wide open episode with Dr. Lilienfeld. Because you're bringing up things here I've been over 100 times - for starters your notion of hypnosis for a murder case - it's inadmissible in any western court. There's a reason for that.

Second, "non professional psychologists"?? I'm sorry, I know I'm supposed to be thoughtful and succinct as a experienced contributor to this forum - but wtf are you talking about? Non professional psychologists? I mean damn...I have no response to that.

Go listen, and I'll continue with ya after you listen. Please, just do it. K?

~J

Really good article, star and flag from me. Remember that Strieber did his regression with Budd Hopkins too

PS that podcast interview is a really good listen too

Originally posted by jritzmann
reply to post by bluestreak53

 

Please listen to the free and wide open episode with Dr. Lilienfeld. Because you're bringing up things here I've been over 100 times - for starters your notion of hypnosis for a murder case - it's inadmissible in any western court. There's a reason for that.

Second, "non professional psychologists"?? I'm sorry, I know I'm supposed to be thoughtful and succinct as a experienced contributor to this forum - but wtf are you talking about? Non professional psychologists? I mean damn...I have no response to that.

Go listen, and I'll continue with ya after you listen. Please, just do it. K?
~J

edit on 17-1-2011 by jritzmann because: spelling

Sorry, but I didn't say anything about the use of hypnosis in a murder case. But you are right on the other point. I have no idea why I mentioned "non-professional psychologists". I just meant anyone who has the temerity to suggest that any person they are talking to should "relax, breath deep" before answering any question.

Anyone who dares to discuss an issue which may possibly be in the realm of "psychology" could be deemed to be a "non-professional psychologist". You see my point? (That obviously includes you as you have "dared" to talk to someone who claimed ot have an "alien abduction experience").

I think that is a pertinent question relating to your contention that people who are not professioal psychologists are perhaps guilty of some crime for asking witnesses to "relax, breath deep" before answering questions.

Originally posted by mobtek
Really good article, star and flag from me. Remember that Strieber did his regression with Budd Hopkins too

PS that podcast interview is a really good listen too

edit on 17-1-2011 by mobtek because: podcast

Whitley Strieber is perhaps the type of person who should go to see a professional psychologist. I am only saying this because I thought he was quite obsessed with violent feelings after reading one of his fictional books about aliens.

But I must emphasize that this comment is totally a NON PROFESSIONAL OPINION.

Cheers!

I actually wanted to know more about this hypnosis thing, and how it related to the UFO Abduction phenom. So, I paid a professional to hypnotize me. It took a few visits, some reason I was not easy to get "under" but eventually it worked. I had told the professional in advance what I was looking into, and how I wanted it to go. Long story short, I gave them instructions to get me to come clean about being abducted under hypnosis from nothing other than leading questions and idea placement. It was hilarious. It was also scary in a way. It really showed me how simple it is to get incorrect results under hypnosis, and it really depends on the professional in charge of the session.

I recorded the session so I could play it back and see how the professional asked the leading questions that allowed me to "play along" and remember something that never happened. It was very enlightening, and the professional said it was also very educational for them. I had one more session where I asked the professional to make up something out of the blue while I was under and get me to play along, just so I could have something to compare it to. For that session the professional had me go through a plane wreck scenario, even getting me to add to it by having me say where I was going and why I was going there. I believe I said I was going to Greece for vacation. Good stuff, never been in a plane wreck before, and the place I said I was going to while in the session I have never been before (although my wife and I were planning a trip there that year, lol).

So yeah, I am typing fast and could go into a lot more detail about this. It wasn't as sloppy and haphazardly done as my poor writing skills show. But the information I got out of the whole experience was not to trust anything under hypnosis, and before even considering testimony of that type the professional doing the sessions must be thoroughly investigated. ANY, and I do mean any hint of something that doesn't smell quite right means you need to throw the whole thing out, as the process is so easy to manipulate that even the person doing the sessions can accidentally manipulate the process almost on a subconscious level if they are not clean and careful.

Originally posted by bluestreak53
Anyone who dares to discuss an issue which may possibly be in the realm of "psychology" could be deemed to be a "non-professional psychologist". You see my point? (That obviously includes you as you have "dared" to talk to someone who claimed ot have an "alien abduction experience").

I think that is a pertinent question relating to your contention that people who are not professioal psychologists are perhaps guilty of some crime for asking witnesses to "relax, breath deep" before answering questions.

Well you can marginalize the hypnotic issue to that if you like, but you'd be wrong.

And no, I'm not a "non-professional psychologist" for interviewing someone who's had an experience. That's ridiculous. If you deem every investigator of any kind from insurance adjuster to bigfoot researcher is a "non-professional psychologist" you have a very twisted sense of vocabulary.

I'd say for me, until you actually listen to the interview, my part in this conversation is done. Once you do, we'll talk.

Originally posted by madjourno
These revelations also have the added aspect of a woman who was once married to Hopkins.
A woman scorned?
edit on 17-1-2011 by madjourno because: missing word



No, I believe that's called "sexism." (And I don't know if you're male or female but that is what that is either way.)

Let's please refrain from shooting the messenger with throwaway lines that don't actually answer the charges. If the message is factually accurate, that's what's important. And in this case, it is.


My response to the above would be that technically you are right - it could be called sexism. But to even up the sexes it would be fair to say that in issues of love and affairs - to be 'wronged' by a partner does tend to crank up
revenge etc which is the 'aspect' I mentioned.

I wasn't suggesting that her allegations were false - simply that maybe her situation encouraged her to speak out
when she might not have done otherwise.

Certainly it seems Carol waited a long time before making these revelations and I'd be interested why she chose this present moment to tell all.

On the issue of hypnosis - having been 'under' many times and also having close friends as psycho-therapists, I would agree with those who see great difficulties if suggestions are being made to try to legislate against hypnosis being used by non-professionals or 'untrained' hypnotists.

Apologies for not yet having heard the interview being linked above - but I have been told by professional psychotherapists that by even watching a movie intensely one can be considered to be in a state of hypnosis.

So any person relating a story of abduction or any other experience or memory to a researcher could be said to be in hypnosis - it is merely a way of blocking off extraneous thoughts to allow focus on a particular theme.

No of course it doesn't guarantee truth - but is merely an added tool for investigation when assessing witness statements about whatever.

The big question is I guess, because Hopkins and Jacobs, might have been proved to have made some mistakes or wrong judgements over certain cases, does that make the rest of their accumulated research, valueless?

It probably casts doubt on the rest but I'm not sure we should throw the baby out with the bathwater over this one - because the same criticisms could be levelled at any UFO researcher who has published long accounts of personal experiences of UFO abductees gleaned from taped interviews with them, with or without hypnosis.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Bud Hopkins has done a lot of psychological damage to many people over the years. I have a video of him blatantly leading an innocent child into thinking she was abducted. As a so called 'hypnotic therapist' he should be ashamed of himself, banned from 'practice' and sued.

IRM

I didn't know he was calling himself a "hypnotic therapist". If he is he should be jailed. Hopkins has no medical training at all. He is basically self taught in hypnosis from watching accredited hynotists that he had hired to work with so-called "abductees". He was an artist before he decided UFOs and alien abductions offered a better living. To call him a "hypnotic therapist" is absurd.

Originally posted by wasco2

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Bud Hopkins has done a lot of psychological damage to many people over the years. I have a video of him blatantly leading an innocent child into thinking she was abducted. As a so called 'hypnotic therapist' he should be ashamed of himself, banned from 'practice' and sued.

IRM

I didn't know he was calling himself a "hypnotic therapist". If he is he should be jailed. Hopkins has no medical training at all. He is basically self taught in hypnosis from watching accredited hynotists that he had hired to work with so-called "abductees". He was an artist before he decided UFOs and alien abductions offered a better living. To call him a "hypnotic therapist" is absurd.

Strawman argument!

What Hopkins does can be considered hypnotic therapy... and I never said he called himself that. It's what I called it. Nonetheless, it does not change the fact that:

A) The man is unqualified.
B) He is doing harm to people.
C) He should be sued for said damage.

IRM

reply to post by simone50m


If you ever listen to Coasttocoastam, inevitably when a caller or guest comes on talking about being abducted it is only a matter of time before they reveal themselves to be an insane person or an outright liar. When I read communion I realized Whitley Strieber was a liar.

However, I cannot say that all abduction cases are fraudulent. And only someone with an agenda would.

The Milky way is a very big place. The Universe is unimaginably huge. We should be hesitant to place any faith in the ideology's of anyone who has never explored it!

So apparently Carol Rainey is now embroiled in some kind of YouTube war regarding Budd Hopkins, who is said to be dying of cancer.

I don't know enough about the matter to be able to comment on it yet, but this video caught my eye and I'd be curious to know what people think. Getting the video to play is a bit of a bear, as it keeps having to pause while it's loading. Don't know if you'll have that problem, but I did.

Still, the claims being made are dramatic enough that I figure it's worth discussing:

Its good people are starting to expose the damage done by the frauds who trick people into believing they were abducted by "aliens".

Originally posted by Turiddu
Its good people are starting to expose the damage done by the frauds who trick people into believing they were abducted by "aliens".

Do you understand that abductions really do happen? As I previously stated, I personally know people who have had the abduction experience and who have never been anywhere near Budd Hopkins or any other hypnotist or therapist. Nobody made them think they had been abducted, other than the beings which abducted them.

As to all this anti-Budd Hopkins business, there are two sides to every story:


New essay authored by a former "patient" of Hopkins

Originally posted by flightsuit

Do you understand that abductions really do happen? .

I understand that there's not a shred of objective evidence to support abductees anecdotal claims of being abducted. And don't give me Dr. Leir's little bits of unidentifiable stuff pulled out of "abductees". I've met a number of so-called "abductees" and they were all less than impressive and seemed likely to suffering from mental illness.

Well I've also known several "abductees," and you know what? Every single one of them was gainfully employed, not given to flights of fancy, not using drugs, not a drunk, and not displaying any signs of mental illness.

And when I say I've known abductees, I'm not talking about people I met at a UFO convention or online. I'm talking about friends and coworkers, people who, in some cases, I'd known for years and years prior to their having their abduction experiences. So these are people with whom I have enough history that if there was some bizarre quirk to their personality that would cause them to make up stories or have hallucinations, I'm damned sure I would have picked up on it well before hearing about their extraordinary experiences.

Certain Ufologists are using the tale of 2 idiots to try to paint the entire Alien hypnosis field dirty. 2 idiots who did hypnosis on the phone 91 times that got kinky weird. Both should be held accountable and a message should be put out that we will not let 2 people's mistakes paint Hypnosis completely in a bad light forever just because of ignorance.

Here is an excellent article that holds Emma Woods accountable just as much as Jacobs. Emma Woods kept going back for the so called treatment on the telephone to someone another continent away. Who she never even met in person. If it was so terrible why keep going back? 91 times? Paratopia is protecting a phone sex scandal more than anything. Letting one crazy woman and crazy man paint an entire field black and bad. Is that right? No! Check it out for a better explanation written by someone who was a former client also of Budd Hopkins.


Falling Down the Rabbit Hole: The Blame Game in the case of Emma Woods

www.examiner.com...