To people who believe "The Left" is "stealing your freedom"....

reply to post by Sinnthia


Musolinni made the trains run on time.
Highways could have been made for troop deployment to take your freedoms.

reply to post by 11PB11

...Wars are expensive. If you support the cause then you justify the means, if you don't support them you don't see a justification. That is a more personal opinion than policy matter....

Well you got the part about "Wars are expensive" correct.

Have you ever thought about WHO wins a war??? It is certainly not the American tax payer, we just get STUCK with the bill.

The ONLY reason to fight a war is because it gives you an advantage. The ONLY way you get an advantage is because you gained MORE in territory and resources than you spent in the war. Any other reason is just horse apples shoveled at the masses to placate them and so they will support your war efforts.

The USA has fought wars for TWO CENTURIES without gaining any territory, so who won???

THE BANKERS! The have been financing both sides and setting up lets you and he fight scenerios with Americans as Cannon Fodder!

Bankrolling the Bolshevik Revolution

Most people today believe the Communists were successful in Russia because they were able to rally behind them the sympathy and frustration of the Russian people who were sick of the tyranny of the Czars. This is to ignore the history of what actually happened. While almost everybody is reminded that the Bolshevik Revolution took place in November of 1917, few know that the Czar had abdicated seven months earlier in March. When Czar Nicholas II abdicated, a provisional government was established by Prince Lvov who wanted to pattern the new Russian government after our own....

...where were Lenin and Trotsky when all this was taking place? Lenin was in Switzerland and had been in Western Europe since 1905 when he was exiled for trying to topple the Czar in the abortive Communist revolution of that year. Trotsky also was in exile, a reporter for a Communist newspaper on the lower east side of New York City. The Bolsheviks were not a visible political force at the time the Czar abdicated. And they came to power not because the downtrodden masses of Russia called them back, but because very powerful men in Europe and the United States sent them in.

Lenin was sent across Europe-at-war on the famous "sealed train." With him, Lenin took some $5 to $6 million in gold. The whole thing was arranged by the German high command and Max Warburg, through another very wealthy and lifelong socialist by the name of Alexander Helphand alias "Parvus."

When Trotsky left New York aboard the S.S. Christiania, on March 27, 1917, with his entourage of 275 revolutionaries, the first port of call was Halifax, Nova Scotia. There the Canadians grabbed Trotsky and his money and impounded them both. This was a very logical thing for the Canadian government...

...Then all of a sudden the British (through future Kuhn, Loeb partner Sir William Wiseman) and the United States (through none other than the ubiquitous "Colonel" House) pressured the Canadian government. And, despite the fact we were now in the war, said, in so many words, "Let Trotsky go." Thus, with an American passport, Trotsky went back to meet Lenin.

The two Germans most responsible for the financing of Lenin were Max Warburg and a displaced Russian named Alexander Helphand. They could claim that they were serving their country's cause by helping and financing Lenin. However, these two German "patriots" neglected to mention to the Kaiser their plan to foment a Communist revolution in Russia.

The picture takes on another dimension when you consider that the brother of Max Warburg was Paul Warburg, prime mover in establishing the Federal Reserve System and who from his position on the Federal Reserve Board of Directors, played a key role in financing the American war effort....

reply to post by havenvideo

My gawd will you people stop with this partisan BS? The only party who is "wrong" are the brainwashed people who choose to label themselves and continue on with this nonsense.

You're all corporate patsies. My 2 cents.

If you make that Bankster/Corporate cartel patsies, I will agree with you

reply to post by 11PB11

which means I read parts of the ACT that states what needs to happen....

I have read the Act too.

The part that I found GLARING was there was a whole section on beefing up the Canadian/USA border but I found nothing addressing the Mexican border

reply to post by mnemeth1

Freedom is the ability to do whatever you want, as long as what ever you are doing is not harming others or damaging their property.

The very existence of government destroys freedom, and government's entire purpose is to stop people from doing things that they want to do, even though no one has been hurt.

Well said.

When I was younger, before the internet was available and research was easy, I figured the USA was on the way out because of the accumulation of laws and accompanying bureaucracy would strangle the productivity of the people.

Today the federal government alone sucks up 17% of the work force while less that 10% of the work force is in manufacturing. That is the number of people actually producing WEALTH is way less than 10% of the population!

No civilization can exist for long when the "Queens" and "Drones" so out way the "Worker bees"

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
I would like to ask you a few simple questions. I would appreciate not asking questions as a response, or misdirecting my target by finding some supposed transgression of "the left' that proves your point. Just Simple answers, and a justification if you can provide one, will suffice.

1) Were you as outraged during Bush's term at the assault on freedoms? (PATRIOT Act, illegal wiretapping, torture, etc.) Because the outrage I hear today about "being forced at gunpoint to pay my taxes" DROWNS out any and all opposition I heard to the PATRIOT act. In fact, I heard arguments FOR the illegal and unAmerican use of torture. Saying Americans can now be illegally searched and then tortured seems like stealing American freedoms, doesnt it?

Yea

2) During the Bush years, "leftish" protesters were forced to be in "free speech zones' during the RNC and the inaugaration. Has there been any such curtailing of freedoms of perhaps Tea Party Protestors? Were they forced into "Free Speech Zones" by the left? Who is stealing freedom here?

The methods "the left" and "the right" degrade freedom are different, but they both do it.

3) Bush invaded two countries, at the cost of trillions of dollars. The people I hear bitching most about taxes are those who listen to Beck and Oreilly....Those guys supported the war, and the huge tax increase that the wars meant. As I seem to remember it, I didnt hear CRAP about how we were going to PAY for the war, from these guys that now are analyzing every cent in social programs that can be cut. In 2001-2003, were you as concerned about how much the government was spending? If so, why were you not as vocal about adding 3 trillion or so to the national debt?

I was.

The people who are raging about this now, seem to have a very short memory about what has already been given up. Must be some god old fashioned "social conditioning". If they would take a little time to review Bush's Presidency.....awww...no point in asking that, is there?

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Musolinni made the trains run on time.
Highways could have been made for troop deployment to take your freedoms.

So you see my point. It is not all that simple is it?
Thanks for backing up my point.

Originally posted by loam

So in other words, using your logic, any authoritarian regime should be ok as long as it can produce some public benefit?

edit on 16-1-2011 by loam because: (no reason given)

That is not even remotely close to what I said. I said that things such as "liberty" and "tyranny" are not always so simple. It is not always cut and dry. It is not black and white. Can you tell me what is tyrannical about our current highway system? Doubtful because it seems you cannot even read what I write.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Great post. The Left is generally against war, and the Right seems to be pro-war, or at least "pro-defense" as they say.....they are HELPING "The Bankers" and TPTB that they say they hate so much!!

Rightwingers, Republicans, Tea Partiers, whatever you call yourself: Why are you so hell bent on helping those that have their boot on our throat ie Bankers, Large Defense Contractors, Big Oil? This is the great contradiction.

reply to post by Sinnthia

Can you tell me what is tyrannical about our current highway system?

WELL....

You pick the wrong topic. Our national highway system, the interstates, is for moving troops and large pieces of Army equipment all over the country FAST. (I was alive when Eisenhower made the announcement so I remember it.

National Defense Highway System

When President Eisenhower went to Kansas to announce the interstate highway system, he announced it as "the National Defense Highway System." In 1956 President Eisenhower signed legislation establishing the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways (about 41,000 miles of roads). Since then, DOD has continued to identify and update defense-important highway routes. The National Defense Highway system was designed to move military equipment and personnel efficiently .... www.globalsecurity.org...

reply to post by Sinnthia

Originally posted by Sinnthia
That is not even remotely close to what I said.

Really? I'll address this in a moment.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
I said that things such as "liberty" and "tyranny" are not always so simple. It is not always cut and dry. It is not black and white.

Therein lies your problem. You appear so lost in the relativity of your convictions that you simply can't recognize how your view imperils the privileged life you fortuitously enjoy.

For me, the distinctions between "liberty" and "tyranny" are nearly always clear.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Can you tell me what is tyrannical about our current highway system?

A ridiculous question concerning a meaningless point...

Let's review your prior statement.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
One of our most valuable and one of my personal favorite perveyors of liberty in the US is the national highway system. Without it, travel would be a nightmare and subject to other people's vehicles and schedules (trains and planes.) I love the highways because they liberated so many people and continue to offer us a way to enjoy the freedom to travel. That is right, the socialist, government instituted and run highway system. Not so simple already.

Did you just repeat that because you read or heard it somewhere else and it just sounded good to you? Did you actually consider what point you were trying to make?

Evidence of a beneficial public works project has no bearing on the nature of the government that produced it.

In fact, history teaches MOST public works projects are the direct result of human subjugation and blood.

The fact that some free societies can also produce beneficial public works projects is hardly a very compelling point against remaining consistent and vigilant against those things that imperil human freedom.

Yes, highways are convenient. But your point is ridiculous when offered as evidence refuting the evil unrestrained governments can otherwise do.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Great post. The Left is generally against war, and the Right seems to be pro-war, or at least "pro-defense" as they say.....they are HELPING "The Bankers" and TPTB that they say they hate so much!!

Rightwingers, Republicans, Tea Partiers, whatever you call yourself: Why are you so hell bent on helping those that have their boot on our throat ie Bankers, Large Defense Contractors, Big Oil? This is the great contradiction.

I'm pretty convinced this post is evidence of a lack of desire on your part to deny ignorance.

Carry on with your political baiting...

Originally posted by crimvelvet
WELL....

You pick the wrong topic. Our national highway system, the interstates, is for moving troops and large pieces of Army equipment all over the country FAST. (I was alive when Eisenhower made the announcement so I remember it.

Well, I actually picked the PERFECT TOPIC. My question was about our current highway system. Is it currently used to move troops around? No, it is currently used by citizens who want to drive places. You all seem bent on twistin what I said about things not being so simple into a stance on one side or the other of a different issue.

You prove my point. They were designed and can be used for tyranny yet they have only actually served so far to spread liberty. Nothing is CURRENTLY tyrannical about our highway system. They can be used for good and bad. See, it is NOT SO SIMPLE.

The hypocrisy here is amazing as you want to talk about the tyranny of our roads while I can only assume you do use them. How many troops were in your way on your last drive?

Originally posted by loam
Really? I'll address this in a moment.

Take your time.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Therein lies your problem. You appear so lost in the relativity of your convictions that you simply can't recognize how your view imperils the privileged life you fortuitously enjoy.

Uh...no.

For me, the distinctions between "liberty" and "tyranny" are nearly always clear.

That is quite easy to say. Applying logic to it is quite another thing. The socialism that put the communications and power infrastructure in place that gets the words you type on your computer to my screen belie your statement.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
A ridiculous question concerning a meaningless point...

Let's review your prior statement.

Why is it ridiculous? You are good at blowing off questions you cannot answer but you seem to lack the skill of addressing anything actually put to you.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Did you just repeat that because you read or heard it somewhere else and it just sounded good to you? Did you actually consider what point you were trying to make?

Do you have ANYTHING to actually say?

Evidence of a beneficial public works project has no bearing on the nature of the government that produced it.

Had that been my point to begin with, you might be on to somethig. Does English confuse you?

In fact, history teaches MOST public works projects are the direct result of human subjugation and blood. The fact that some free societies can also produce beneficial public works projects is hardly a very compelling point against remaining consistent and vigilant against those things that imperil human freedom.

Yet the results of many facilitate freedoms enjoyed today. See the complications?

Yes, highways are convenient. But your point is ridiculous when offered as evidence refuting the evil unrestrained governments can otherwise do.

So you just sit there and insult people without offering an intelligent or original thought? U2U me when you get an actual point or argument or thought to express. Your empty insults are kind of wasted but I do need the typing practice.

Originally posted by ripcontrol

4) why is everyone who disagrees with you either racist of stupid...

Are you being culturally insensitive to my nate merican heritage... Shame on you.....

Being half-Mohawk, listening to you calling yourself "Nate American" (you didnt even have the courage or education to say "Native") is pretty damn racist and insulting. Your post shows the level of your mates....and you wonder why people reject it?

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
Great post. The Left is generally against war, and the Right seems to be pro-war, or at least "pro-defense" as they say.....they are HELPING "The Bankers" and TPTB that they say they hate so much!!

Rightwingers, Republicans, Tea Partiers, whatever you call yourself: Why are you so hell bent on helping those that have their boot on our throat ie Bankers, Large Defense Contractors, Big Oil? This is the great contradiction.

I'm pretty convinced this post is evidence of a lack of desire on your part to deny ignorance.

Carry on with your political baiting...

How so? Can you explain? The Tea Partiers and Right Wingers are generally very Republican...which has shown consistently, over and over, to be VERY helpful, legislatively speaking, to the banks, defense contractors, and big oil. How can you even deny this? Its basically the Republican platform.

Maybe it is you who should deny ignorance.

reply to post by Sinnthia


*yawn*

I'll let our posts stand. I think most readers can figure it out.

But, I really can't let this one go:

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by loam
In fact, history teaches MOST public works projects are the direct result of human subjugation and blood. The fact that some free societies can also produce beneficial public works projects is hardly a very compelling point against remaining consistent and vigilant against those things that imperil human freedom.

Yet the results of many facilitate freedoms enjoyed today. See the complications?

Did you really say that?

Not just spooky logic, but alarming and repugnant to say the least.

The Nazis produced all kinds of beneficial human health and science knowledge through the use of human experimentation. Using your logic, that has the potential to only be a complication to you?



I hope you're sincerely a good person, who just happens to be unwittingly confused. I'd re-evaluate your perspective, if I were you.

Originally posted by loam
*yawn*

I'll let our posts stand. I think most readers can figure it out.

But, I really can't let this one go:

So you really have nothing. You entire contribution to this thread is that of the two old muppets in the balcony minus the wit? Say something. My posts are already posted here. You quoting them and then tossing in empty ad hom attacks is not even really entertaining. Thanks for reposting my posts so, so that now maybe someone can read them.

Did you really say that?

Can you dispute it?

Not just spooky logic, but alarming and repugnant to me.

I do not think you can.

The Nazis produced all kinds of beneficial human health and science knowledge through the use of human experimentation. That's only a complication to you?

I hope you re-evaluate your perspective.

I am positive you cannot cobble together a coherent thought and doubtful now that you can read. Please, feel free to actually offer up what is wrong with what I have said. It is clear you think I am barf and wow but other than that, seems you have no thoughts.

I am sorry that my points either elude you or are just too solid for you to dispute. Please stop wasting my time just attackig me on a personal level without adding to the debate though. I can play that game too.