Tucson shooter's incredible marksmanship

The perp/patsy is supposed to have had time to empty* one extended magazine of either 30 or 33 rounds. Yet if you count the number of wounds in the victims, you come up with at least 30 wounds.

Dead
-John Roll, 63, (?)
-Gabriel Zimmerman, 30, (?)
-Dorwin Stoddard, 76, shot in head (1x)
-Christina Greene, 9, shot once through chest (1x)
-Dorothy Morris, 76 (?)
-Phyllis Schneck, 79 (?)

Wounded
Ron Barber, 65, shot in the leg and in the face and neck area (2x)
Bill Badger, 74, grazing wound in back of head (1x)
Kenneth Dorushka, 63, shot in arm (1x)
Eric (aka James) Fuller, 63, wounded in knee and back (2x)
Randy Gardner, 60, shot in foot (1x)
U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords(D-AZ), 40, shot through head, either from back or front (1x)
Susan Hileman, 58, shots in torso and leg (4x)
George Morris, 76, shot in chest and leg (2x)
Mary Reed, 52, shot in back and once in each arm (3x)
Pam Simon, 63, shot in wrist and chest (2x)
Mavanell Stoddard, 75, shot 3 times in the leg (3x)
James Tucker, 58 (?)
Kenneth Veeder, 75, grazed in leg (1x)

And that doesn't include rounds that impacted the building:

www.azcentral.com...
Jason Pekau, 31, saw bullet holes in the walls and in the Safeway windows.

Even assuming rounds that passed through one victim and then impacted another, it is a truly incredible piece of marksmanship from some guy who had no known professional training and probably very little practice. Which is of course more evidence of multiple shooters.

--------

*Or maybe he didn't even fire that many:

www.npr.org...
There were still bullets in the suspect's gun when he was tackeled by two bystanders, Dupnik says.

Nothing about this case makes sense if you believe what the media is telling you then i feel bad for you

good way to break it down! s&f, there had to be someone else shooting these people, a sniper or sumthn.

Depending on the angles, type of ammunition, proximity of the shooter to target, and the grouping of people, a 30 round clip could hit more than 30 people.

I wonder if anyone has mapped out all of the relative positions of these people, and the position he was in while he was firing. It could be interesting to see if he was firing from 10 meters away or 10 feet away.

Maybe its just my Geographic training, but I think some of these questions could be answered with some spatial analysis.

Just a small question..

I looked at the sources you provided, but no where do I find the list of victims or a desciption of their wounds.
Did you find this info in another source and if so, could you link to it please?

If I counted correctly there were 30 wounds, I have heard reports of a 31 round magazine. That would account for at least 1 round still in the weapon, and assuming that there were exit wounds as well, a single round could impact two victims.

Please supply the requested source if you could
Thanks in advance.

Remember
YouDidntSeeMe


edit to add:
The Glock 19 model that was used actually comes with a 15/17/19/ or 33 round capacity, so I would assume it was a 33 round mag, meaning a minimum of 3 rounds could be left by couting the wounds listed.

Joe Zamudio apprehended a man at the scene who had a gun drawn whose slide was locked to the rear, as if it had been emptied. He thought the man was the shooter and thought he could take him down before the man could reload. After grabbing the man it turned out he wasn't the shooter.

Who was the guy and why was his slide locked to the rear as if he has emptied his magazine?

Listen to this cnn interview
parkerspitzer.blogs.cnn.com...

Anyone have more info on who that was? Was he holding the suspects gun?

This stuff was not in one place. I had to look all over for info, for example by googling a victim's name and reading through numerous different sources to find the stuff. Though this source has the details for a few of the victims:

en.wikipedia.org...

Anyway the point is not IF Loughner could have POSSIBLY accomplished this feat of marksmanship, but rather that it is highly IMPROBABLE that he did so.

voices.washingtonpost.com...
(eyewitness)Rayle said "I don't think he was even aiming. He was just firing at whatever."

This source indicates video shows the whole event. Let's see if it will ever be released.

tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...
(FBI Special Agent Tony M.)Taylor writes that -- according to surveillance video he's reviewed along with other evidence -- Loughner shot Giffords, Roll and staffers Gabriel Zimmerman, Pamela Simon and Ron Barber as well as approximately 14 other individuals.

reply to post by starviego


I dont think that its a feat of marksmanship actually. That many victims with that many shots fired seems like a chaotic and out of control shooter, just randomly firing as many rounds as possible. With a crowd of that size, it is more than likely that there would be multiple victims. Its not as each there were 10 shorts fired and each shot hit its intended target with little to know variance. After the first shot was fired at his target, the crowd would have become very chaotic and along with a chaotic shooter, that spells for a bad scene.

I would of wanted to know who he would have shot if he would of Reload that Clip.
Especially When they saw him 8 hours prior at the Shooting range, Practicing.

S&F!

Ive been hunting my whole life and have handled serious weapons.
With recoil and body position in mind, there is not a possible way he could have hit all these people "just shooting at whatever."

We need to look much deeper behind this assassination, this is being highly downplayed by an upcoming election and a hoax we call freedom in the confederate states,

If they do not release critical information during this investigation we will all know what were finally looking at.

i was watching youtube videos on loughner and found thi watch it where it gets to the Kennedy part the driver makes a gun signal to his head and then Kennedy gets shot, thats crazy i have never seen tht before

Originally posted by Socratic Method
Ive been hunting my whole life and have handled serious weapons.
With recoil and body position in mind, there is not a possible way he could have hit all these people "just shooting at whatever."

As have I, and the Glock 19 is not considered a 'serious weapon'. Recoil would not have much of an effect in my opinion.

We need to look much deeper behind this assassination, this is being highly downplayed by an upcoming election and a hoax we call freedom in the confederate states,

This was an attempted assassination. The main target lived, bystanders died.

If they do not release critical information during this investigation we will all know what were finally looking at.

what information would you consider 'critical?'

In most recorded firearms engagements, involving Law Enforcement and Citizens, most exchanges were within 20ft or less, and I believe that most of the accuracy rates are something in the neighborhood of 1 in every 9 or so. Successful head shot are few and far between. Law enforcement are taught center mass, and so does any competent gun related course.
Yes, the Glock 9mm handgun he had will accommodate the 31 round mag. Both are easy to obtain.
This still stands, what he did required specific and lengthy training. Most of the time this is to condition someone not only mentally but to get the muscle memory down as well.
Jared seems to be disconnected, so the mental thing is probably not an issue.
Something stinks with this whole thing.

Close quarters less then 10 feet during the shooting not like most gang shootings where the shoot from aways away.

I did notice that a number of victims would have less wounds if they had been wearing a bullet proof vest.
and a couple might have survived.

I am thinking about getting another vest just in case.
I use to wear back when i was a EMT and had to go into bad neighborhoods.

I consider this the most revealing piece of information so far since this event occurred.

The accuracy is uncanny when compared to the norm with similar weapons. He scores a 91% accuracy in marksmanship making him an expert marksman by US military standards.

While this is certainly possible, it does take A LOT of training and does not fit the description of someone "shooting wildly" as many witnesses claim.

It would certainly be interesting to see the scene to see exactly how the shots line up in accordance with holes in the walls, victim placement, ect. Clearly we are missing something here whether it be a key piece of evidence, or a key piece of information about Loughner himself.

Will we ever find out what it is?

proof mugshot was faked?

reply to post by MikeboydUS


It seems rather simple. Isolate the 'loner', then 'befriend' him. Hilarity ensues.

Seems to be a pattern.

Hey..anyone check the three questions posed to miss amerika?

The two parties are seemingly at greater odds than ever before...what would your advice be...

Wikileaks seems to be on everyone's mind....

Healthcare was among the presidents greatest achievements...

A nation of patsies.

While yes, the mug shot does very much look like it went through photoshop, a couple things are brought to light?
First is why photoshop when if taken into custody, he is not going to general population and I am 99% sure that the Federal Marshals are taking care of him. They could get him to conform to any look simply by asking.
Second, more then likely touched up to lessen the visual aspect that he got his butt handed to him and there are a lot of bruises/cuts/swelling on his head.

The photoshop evidence does not itself point to a conspiracy.

Looking over the list of wounds, there doesn't seem to be any consistency in regards to a specific region of the body that he was targeting. I would guess that it's kind of hard to miss when you are shooting pointblank/close range in the middle of a crowd.

my 2-cents