Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

page: 1
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join

posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 02:54 PM
link   
Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will?

If God has this great plan, that we and he cannot deviate from, then none of us, including God, have free will.
If we can deviate from it then we can say that we, including God, have free will.

To believe in the plan is to believe, as I do, that all is perfect at any given point in time.
Most do not follow my thinking on this because they do not understand the perfection of the reality we live in.

Most believe we live under imperfect condition.
If things are not perfect right now, then it would mean that we are off the plan.
Imperfection within the perfect plan.

Is that even possible in your thinking?

How do you resolve this catch 22 paradox?

Regards
DL

www.youtube.com...

The weird yet perfect plan.
Satan, a surprise to God.
Losing 1/3 of angels.
Eden, the fall.
Exodus, harden Pharaoh’s heart.
Repent of creating man.
Use genocide on man.
Having his son murdered.
End time, another genocide.
Having more souls in hell than heaven.
Begin as master of all. End as a back sliding master of just some.
All these failures for God in his perfect plan?




posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 03:06 PM
link   
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


What if the plan was free will? Free will means non-perfection if one is result orientated. Consider eternity, how do you avoid boredom and still grow? Only taking risks achieves an eternity of new, continual growth and change allows one to push their own boundaries. Perfection is not a static result it is a process of eternal change. Eternal change means that comfort is not the goal, challenge is. Sounds like the life we live. Be well.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 03:15 PM
link   
Not being able to prove or disprove the existance of either God or the plan, it would be simpler to assume there were neither. It would solve your problem with the understanding and make sense.

Until for some reason there is point in believing any of it then why worry over it? The only thing to suggest it has been some writings some people made. People wrote alot of things but that is just one that has stuck, it doesn't make it any more or less true than the Lord of The Rings for example.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 06:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by Okandetre
Not being able to prove or disprove the existance of either God or the plan, it would be simpler to assume there were neither. It would solve your problem with the understanding and make sense.

Until for some reason there is point in believing any of it then why worry over it? The only thing to suggest it has been some writings some people made. People wrote alot of things but that is just one that has stuck, it doesn't make it any more or less true than the Lord of The Rings for example.


I find it amusing than whenever someone discusses God people feel a need to say that you cannot prove it. Why do people who don't believe feel a need to say it on every post. Why do you care what others believe? As far as saying it is simpler to believe nothing, it is simpler and so are the people who don't address the question.

I intentionally do not attempt to prove Gods existence to those who do not ask. That does not mean that it cannot be proven. We can prove consciousness and we can prove eternity, consider the consequences of both and then attempt to define what you mean by God. To compare the bible to the Lord of the Rings is simply rude and unnecessary. I don't believe the OP asked to be insulted, he asked a spiritual question.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 06:43 PM
link   
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Only if it is permanent. If human action can alter the deity's plan or if the deity is able to alter it as it pleases, then it is okay and not in violation of free will. Only inviolable plans restrict.

...of course, then we have the problem of omniscience...



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 07:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


What if the plan was free will? Free will means non-perfection if one is result orientated. Consider eternity, how do you avoid boredom and still grow? Only taking risks achieves an eternity of new, continual growth and change allows one to push their own boundaries. Perfection is not a static result it is a process of eternal change. Eternal change means that comfort is not the goal, challenge is. Sounds like the life we live. Be well.


I basically agree with you but that is hardly biblical as we know that the moment A & E used their free will to do something other than what Bible God wanted, he came down on them with both feet.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 07:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by Okandetre
Not being able to prove or disprove the existance of either God or the plan, it would be simpler to assume there were neither. It would solve your problem with the understanding and make sense.

Until for some reason there is point in believing any of it then why worry over it? The only thing to suggest it has been some writings some people made. People wrote alot of things but that is just one that has stuck, it doesn't make it any more or less true than the Lord of The Rings for example.


I basically agree but will speak to your ----why worry.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

www.youtube.com...

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
www.youtube.com...

Jesus Camp 1of 9
www.youtube.com...

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can.

We should both worry about our children and grand children friend. The life we save if we can convert a few literalists might be our offsprings.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 07:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Only if it is permanent. If human action can alter the deity's plan or if the deity is able to alter it as it pleases, then it is okay and not in violation of free will. Only inviolable plans restrict.

...of course, then we have the problem of omniscience...


Good point.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 07:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by Okandetre
Not being able to prove or disprove the existance of either God or the plan, it would be simpler to assume there were neither. It would solve your problem with the understanding and make sense.

Until for some reason there is point in believing any of it then why worry over it? The only thing to suggest it has been some writings some people made. People wrote alot of things but that is just one that has stuck, it doesn't make it any more or less true than the Lord of The Rings for example.


I find it amusing than whenever someone discusses God people feel a need to say that you cannot prove it. Why do people who don't believe feel a need to say it on every post. Why do you care what others believe? As far as saying it is simpler to believe nothing, it is simpler and so are the people who don't address the question.

I intentionally do not attempt to prove Gods existence to those who do not ask. That does not mean that it cannot be proven. We can prove consciousness and we can prove eternity, consider the consequences of both and then attempt to define what you mean by God. To compare the bible to the Lord of the Rings is simply rude and unnecessary. I don't believe the OP asked to be insulted, he asked a spiritual question.


Hmm. Seems to me that to be able to prove eternity, one would need to know where and when the end of time is in order to know that we can exceed it on to eternity.

As to proving God, I have made the claim of apotheosis to a Godhead, not to be confused with the miracle working absentee God, but have no way to prove it.

Perhaps you can help me. What does the formula look like?

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 08:00 PM
link   
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


I like the comment. Why does omniscience present a problem? Why assume God is omniscient? Perhaps it is better to give a definition of God first. God can merely be the creator, that does not require him to be all powerful or all knowing. If you wish to consider him as all powerful then we must define power. Does it mean that he can do as he will? Hmmm, free will is power and we all have it. Let us consider all knowing, how does knowing what will occur prevent free will, it does not. I know what a 2 year old will do, we know a lot of things before they happen. What if God gave us free will so that he would be surprised by our choices, what if he chose not to be all knowing?

I don't think we can comprehend God completely as we are still growing and incomplete. My belief is that we will always be "imperfect" (not all knowing, all powerful or the creator) yet we are self aware beings. We cannot prove that this reality exists but we can prove that we exist, at least we can prove it to ourselves. The only thing that we can know with absolute assurance is that we exist, that consciousness is real.

If we choose to believe that there are other sentient beings then the possible existence of a God must be one of the options as he is conceived of as a sentient being.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 08:24 PM
link   
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Dear DL,

Eternity is simple to prove. We are conscious beings and time is not the movement of matter through space, time is changing thoughts, if thoughts change than change has occurred. If nothing material existed, time still would be if there was consciousness. If consciousness exists then we can go to physics, energy (according to Einstein) can neither be created nor destroyed. If you accept that then time can neither be created nor destroyed (using the logic that Einstein used to prove it for energy), if time is and it cannot be created nor destroyed than time is eternal. Our definition of time is critical to understanding eternity. We experience time by having awareness.

Someone in an earlier response mentioned how the false teachings of believers hurts those of us who do understand. The bible says that our traditions make void the word of God, I agree. It is difficult to have an intelligent conversation about God when most of the talk is to correct the traditions and incorrect dogma. I believe we should begin our questions at the beginning, that is just good philosophy. We know we exist because we experience emotions.

Before we can begin to understand God we need to understand the nature of ourselves and our experience. There is no requirement that anyone believe what I have said; but, I do hope that they at least understand what I was saying. Somebody said that the existence of God cannot be proven, I actually disagree. The non-existence of God cannot be proven and that is why many people do not want to have a real discussion about God. To know that he exists has meaning to how we conduct ourselves with one another. It means that our corruption is seen and narcissists do not like that. We want to see ourselves for our good and ignore our bad, what if we look both in the face and stop justifying selfishness. That is the essence of the God debate.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 02:58 AM
link   

Originally posted by AQuestion
I find it amusing than whenever someone discusses God people feel a need to say that you cannot prove it. Why do people who don't believe feel a need to say it on every post. Why do you care what others believe? As far as saying it is simpler to believe nothing, it is simpler and so are the people who don't address the question.


It is not the point of whether it need be proven or not, it is the fact that it is just creating something to be proven or disproven without any reason as to why. It is basically like me today thinking up a new species of animal of which I have never seen, heard of and have no reason as to believe why it would exist, then write a book about it relaying it's life story. This idea seems to have been lost on God though as the idea of it has been around so long. There is no need to address the question because is a no-starter, there is need to address though why people believe it is so, but not the existence part.

On the note of caring what other's believe, it is important because of the fact that what other people believe directly impacts on the life of those living around them. The same why you might be worried and care if your next door neighbour believes that you are an evil person who needed to be rid of. This would cause a fear in you that he might act upon his beliefs, especially if they are based on nothing of fact or evidence. It is only by the slight pressure of rationality that will show up what illogical belief systems are to the eyes of the believers.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 08:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by Okandetre

Originally posted by AQuestion
I find it amusing than whenever someone discusses God people feel a need to say that you cannot prove it. Why do people who don't believe feel a need to say it on every post. Why do you care what others believe? As far as saying it is simpler to believe nothing, it is simpler and so are the people who don't address the question.


It is not the point of whether it need be proven or not, it is the fact that it is just creating something to be proven or disproven without any reason as to why. It is basically like me today thinking up a new species of animal of which I have never seen, heard of and have no reason as to believe why it would exist, then write a book about it relaying it's life story. This idea seems to have been lost on God though as the idea of it has been around so long. There is no need to address the question because is a no-starter, there is need to address though why people believe it is so, but not the existence part.

On the note of caring what other's believe, it is important because of the fact that what other people believe directly impacts on the life of those living around them. The same why you might be worried and care if your next door neighbour believes that you are an evil person who needed to be rid of. This would cause a fear in you that he might act upon his beliefs, especially if they are based on nothing of fact or evidence. It is only by the slight pressure of rationality that will show up what illogical belief systems are to the eyes of the believers.


ROFL. Really. You compare asking questions about eternity and God to imagining new animals. That is not histories dilemma. That is a straw man. Asking if there is a God is the beginning of intelligence. Asking who we are and what meaning we have is the essence of life, of being more than objects..

You say that caring about what others believe is important because it may impact their actions as they might act on their beliefs. That is true whether we are discussing religion or anything else; however, you wish to regulate religious beliefs. How sad. You accuse believers of not being rational, that is silly. I am more than willing to have a rational discussion on "Godness". I have not been obscene in my responses nor irrational. Do you wish to have the conversation? If we do, don't tell me what I believe, it is a waste of time. I will tell you what I know and will not be hindered by other aholes beliefs. You will not hold me accountable for those who claim to be Christians and are not.

You wish to use the unknown as a defense to not knowing. Don't do so with me, I know. Confusion does not impress me. Things can be known and proven. We are living at a time where we experience the edge of reality, of truth, Be prepared, it will come. My challenge was whether or not someone wanted to spend a few weeks proving that he exists and I said I am down with that. You avoided the challenge.

Sunshine, I have known bad people, I have know mafiosa. They are punks. They always say the same thing, they say that they are just like legit people but in a different industry. This is garbage. Their reason for acting is selfish. Intent defines us. You attempt to say that people who are believers are illogical, lets explore this, prove I am illogical, I don.t see that happening. You are a liar, you do not want facts and evidence because I will provide them, you want a different answer than facts and evidence will bring, you want your answer. The one that says do what thou wilt. It is the wrong answer.

I have said this before and will say it again. If anyone wants I will prove God exists, heck, I will prove you matter. Nobody wants to take on the challenge, be the first and we begin by setting the framework for the discussion. Still no takers, cowards are all I see. You can be the last punk or the first to step up, choose. Start with defining eternity, that is the hardest part.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 03:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Dear DL,

Eternity is simple to prove. We are conscious beings and time is not the movement of matter through space, time is changing thoughts, if thoughts change than change has occurred. If nothing material existed, time still would be if there was consciousness. If consciousness exists then we can go to physics, energy (according to Einstein) can neither be created nor destroyed. If you accept that then time can neither be created nor destroyed (using the logic that Einstein used to prove it for energy), if time is and it cannot be created nor destroyed than time is eternal. Our definition of time is critical to understanding eternity. We experience time by having awareness.

Someone in an earlier response mentioned how the false teachings of believers hurts those of us who do understand. The bible says that our traditions make void the word of God, I agree. It is difficult to have an intelligent conversation about God when most of the talk is to correct the traditions and incorrect dogma. I believe we should begin our questions at the beginning, that is just good philosophy. We know we exist because we experience emotions.

Before we can begin to understand God we need to understand the nature of ourselves and our experience. There is no requirement that anyone believe what I have said; but, I do hope that they at least understand what I was saying. Somebody said that the existence of God cannot be proven, I actually disagree. The non-existence of God cannot be proven and that is why many people do not want to have a real discussion about God. To know that he exists has meaning to how we conduct ourselves with one another. It means that our corruption is seen and narcissists do not like that. We want to see ourselves for our good and ignore our bad, what if we look both in the face and stop justifying selfishness. That is the essence of the God debate.


I know better than to waste my time and words with one who has been spouting B S for as long as you have and has decided to actually believe his own B S.

Theologians and many rather bright people have been debating and discussing God for 3000 years without coming to a final conclusion or providing any proof yet to you, God is easy to prove.

That tells me all I need to know about your deluded condition. Anyway, I see that you are used to talking at people and not to people and knowing my own personality and not suffering fools well, I would likely tell you to # off in quick order so, see ya. Would not want to be ya.

Regards
DL



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 04:42 PM
link   

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Dear DL,

Eternity is simple to prove. We are conscious beings and time is not the movement of matter through space, time is changing thoughts, if thoughts change than change has occurred. If nothing material existed, time still would be if there was consciousness. If consciousness exists then we can go to physics, energy (according to Einstein) can neither be created nor destroyed. If you accept that then time can neither be created nor destroyed (using the logic that Einstein used to prove it for energy), if time is and it cannot be created nor destroyed than time is eternal. Our definition of time is critical to understanding eternity. We experience time by having awareness.

Someone in an earlier response mentioned how the false teachings of believers hurts those of us who do understand. The bible says that our traditions make void the word of God, I agree. It is difficult to have an intelligent conversation about God when most of the talk is to correct the traditions and incorrect dogma. I believe we should begin our questions at the beginning, that is just good philosophy. We know we exist because we experience emotions.

Before we can begin to understand God we need to understand the nature of ourselves and our experience. There is no requirement that anyone believe what I have said; but, I do hope that they at least understand what I was saying. Somebody said that the existence of God cannot be proven, I actually disagree. The non-existence of God cannot be proven and that is why many people do not want to have a real discussion about God. To know that he exists has meaning to how we conduct ourselves with one another. It means that our corruption is seen and narcissists do not like that. We want to see ourselves for our good and ignore our bad, what if we look both in the face and stop justifying selfishness. That is the essence of the God debate.


I know better than to waste my time and words with one who has been spouting B S for as long as you have and has decided to actually believe his own B S.

Theologians and many rather bright people have been debating and discussing God for 3000 years without coming to a final conclusion or providing any proof yet to you, God is easy to prove.

That tells me all I need to know about your deluded condition. Anyway, I see that you are used to talking at people and not to people and knowing my own personality and not suffering fools well, I would likely tell you to # off in quick order so, see ya. Would not want to be ya.

Regards
DL



Ahhhh, but that is the joke. To only debate people who do not study and do not come to conclusions that are objective is the providence of cowards. The truth is out there and can be discovered. More often than not, we do not wish to hear it so we tackle straw men that we use to represent opposing positions. The "nobody can know" argument is wasteful, we can certainly ask and come to our own conclusions. People have for thousands of years. If you think you will have to tell me to f off, so be it, lets have the discussion first. A moderated thread is fine with me, unlike you, I am not afraid of the truth or being proven wrong.



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 06:07 PM
link   
As you say, it is impossible for me to show that God does not exist which is why I do not usually make that definitive statement.
You have made a definitive statement that the existence of God can be.

You are crying wolf.
Show the tracks or the shat.

Regards
DL
edit on 16-1-2011 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 12:43 AM
link   
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


I will take up the challenge. Let us begin. Please understand that we will begin by treading ground that philosophers have already established. Let us start with Descartes after correcting him slightly. Descartes said that "I think therefore I am". Consider Helen Keller who did not have "thoughts" as she had no words/language to organize her feeling. You may, if you have not already, read her book on her experience. What we know is that we are emotions more than thought. Thought is how we organize our emotions, control them. That is Helen Keller's testimony. From it we learn that we have emotional experiences and therefore we exist. We are sentient beings having an experience.

Now is where the answer lies and it is quite simple. The only thing you can prove to yourself is that you exist, everything could be an illusion and you must choose what you believe to be reality. Others exist or you are alone and delusional. Which do you choose. You have a second question you must address, where did your sentience come from, are you God or did God create you? Those are the philosophical questions that people have asked throughout history and people made their choices.

Regardless of your choice you end up having to admit that their is a God even if you believe it to be you. If you argue that you do not exist you lie to yourself, if you argue that you do not have emotions, you lie to yourself. If you to define God something other than a sentient being then you use a definition that nobody else does. Did you create yourself? If so you are God, if sentience was given to you then God is somebody else. If you understood the parable of the trinity you would understand the nature of existence.

I cannot prove the nature of God, nor do I know it. The existence is subjectively obvious. "Science" can explain everything except sentience. That is not quite true as quantum physics says that nothing makes sense unless you believe in parallel universes that cannot be measured or known. I have a problem with that. Science cannot create awareness, it can clone animals; but, sentience only exists in living things.

All philosophy to be valid must begin with what we know and the only thing we know is that we exist. Science denies this. Mr. Dawkins stated that the only we can prove exists is matter; but, he is wrong and contradicts himself. The only thing we know is that we exist or there is nothing we can prove, can't prove a thing to somebody that does not exist. God is the sentience of the universe, that is the definition of God. We know sentience exists because we are self aware. Two choices you are God or God created you, in either case there is a God.

God existence is self evident by our having awareness. The problem is proving other people exist. We have two choices either we are God and have created a delusion of others or there are others. I hope you can keep up. To contradict me you must prove that you don't exist. I look forward to the discussion. Solipsism is the belief that the only think we can know is that we exist, sort of the only thing that we can know is that we are God. You say that nobody has ever to an answer, this is silly, people have been down this intellectual process and found the answers, the questions never changed.

To argue that there is not God is to argue that you do not exist as a sentient being, that is not even worthy of discussion. I do not argue the God of any book, they are books and may not be perfectly accurate; but, my self awareness is perfectly provable to me and yours is to you. The moron Bill Maher said that he didn't care to even ask the question of whether or not God exists.

The most self evident thing in the world is self awareness and to not ask what it means is cowardice. Let us examine the reasons why what is apparent is ignored. If you believe you are God (the only sentient being) then you have intentionally created a delusion of this world. If you created the delusion then you have to accept it as being real or why did you create it? If you were created by God then you still have to accept that this experience is real.

Attempt to prove that anything material exists and will take out the current thoughts in quantum physics. We can prove, we cannot prove this experience is real, we have to take that on faith. LOL. The only out you have is to attempt to define God for me in a way that is based on someone's book. I have read most of them, pick one. Have fun, I know you will come back, take your time, we have thousands of years of philosophy that already tread this ground, people just don't like the answer. They don't like the answer because it means that we cannot be selfish as we are all God's creation.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 12:46 AM
link   
You say "that would mean god does not have free will" But,infact it would mean,he does have free will or he could not have made the plan.



posted on Jan, 17 2011 @ 01:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


Dear DL,

Eternity is simple to prove. We are conscious beings and time is not the movement of matter through space, time is changing thoughts, if thoughts change than change has occurred. If nothing material existed, time still would be if there was consciousness. If consciousness exists then we can go to physics, energy (according to Einstein) can neither be created nor destroyed. If you accept that then time can neither be created nor destroyed (using the logic that Einstein used to prove it for energy), if time is and it cannot be created nor destroyed than time is eternal. Our definition of time is critical to understanding eternity. We experience time by having awareness.

Someone in an earlier response mentioned how the false teachings of believers hurts those of us who do understand. The bible says that our traditions make void the word of God, I agree. It is difficult to have an intelligent conversation about God when most of the talk is to correct the traditions and incorrect dogma. I believe we should begin our questions at the beginning, that is just good philosophy. We know we exist because we experience emotions.

Before we can begin to understand God we need to understand the nature of ourselves and our experience. There is no requirement that anyone believe what I have said; but, I do hope that they at least understand what I was saying. Somebody said that the existence of God cannot be proven, I actually disagree. The non-existence of God cannot be proven and that is why many people do not want to have a real discussion about God. To know that he exists has meaning to how we conduct ourselves with one another. It means that our corruption is seen and narcissists do not like that. We want to see ourselves for our good and ignore our bad, what if we look both in the face and stop justifying selfishness. That is the essence of the God debate.


I know better than to waste my time and words with one who has been spouting B S for as long as you have and has decided to actually believe his own B S.

Theologians and many rather bright people have been debating and discussing God for 3000 years without coming to a final conclusion or providing any proof yet to you, God is easy to prove.

That tells me all I need to know about your deluded condition. Anyway, I see that you are used to talking at people and not to people and knowing my own personality and not suffering fools well, I would likely tell you to # off in quick order so, see ya. Would not want to be ya.

Regards
DL



Hey sunshine, I forgot something. Discuss how my logic was delusional. Tell me me how I am a fool so that we can discuss how you believe the greatest philosophers that already tread this ground are fools. Tell me to f off. No, you will only look silly to anyone that reads this thread.

Your original post was insincere as are you. You asked a question which assumed God existed; but, in fact you were attempting to prove that he did not. Which, as you have admitted, is something you cannot prove. My first post on this thread was under the assumption you were sincere. If I had known you were just trying to create doubt in people's minds then I would not have posted.

You are a baiter, you attempt to bait the uninformed into serious conversation. If someone answers you seriously then you become bitter. Answer the question you asked, what if the plan was free will? What if the plan was imperfection and variety so that we would not be bored for eternity as we are eternal beings? Oh, I forgot, you are still trying to prove that we don't exist.



posted on Jan, 18 2011 @ 10:58 AM
link   
reply to post by AQuestion
 


LOL.

First. You say we cannot prove a material existence.
I can prove you wrong. Or better said. You can prove yourself wrong.
Take your finger and poke yourself in the eye. If there is pain then I have proven my point.

Second. You have not proven much of anything yet let alone God. You seem to think that I do not believe in the existence of a Godhead. I do. It is just not the God you believe in. I cannot prove my belief even though I have had an apotheosis and was hoping beyond hope that you could give me something to prove my belief. You have yet to do so.

Care to add something to what you wrote that will.

Regards
DL





new topics
top topics
 
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join