Palestina recongized as "Free and Sovereign Nation" within 1967 borders., page 11

reply to post by FarArcher

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THAT is why you NEVER leave your national interest up to other nations.

Ther's the problem.
What nation?
Since when was there a nation of Israel?
There wasn't, untill someone just declared that there was.
That's a little different than actual nations that had a history of existing and having a land and a people.
That would be like Mexicans coming into the US and declaring themselves a nation, never themselves or any of their ancestors ever having actually lived on the land they were declaring their national homeland.

reply to post by FarArcher

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The same God of Abraham and Isaac. And the Christ.

Do you mean Jesus Christ?
That "the Christ"?
The "the Christ" I know does not have the same God.
Read the Gospel.
When that same claim was made to Jesus by the Jews, he said, "Your father is the Devil."
The God of Jesus Christ did not believe in lying and stealing and murder.

reply to post by nenothtu

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. . .how that "heredity" thing works according to God's tenets.

You, apparently have a different Bible than I do.
My Bible has what Christians call the New Testament.
This version has the prophet, John the Baptist, saying to strike the tree at the root with an ax.
Then it has the Apostle Paul saying a new branch is grafted in.
Jesus and the Apostle John say we are adopted to be the sons of God.
So, according to my Bible, the hereditary thing is thrown out and the ones who have faith in Jesus are the descendants of Abraham and the recipients of the blessings the Jews rejected.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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My, my. Someone certainly has a hard-on for the Israelis.

There has been an Israel since 1948.

There was a Republic of Rhodesia from 1965-1979.

There has been a Zimbabwe since 1980.

There has been a Slovenia and Croatia since 1991.

There has been a Bosnia, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, and Herzegovina since 1992.

You see, nations form, break apart, declare independence, and so on all the time.

So why with the weed up your butt over Israel?

reply to post by jmdewey60

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Uh huh. So why are you carrying on about "heredity" in the first place, as if blood had anything to do with it?

Can't have it both ways. Pick one.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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You do limit your God so very much, and you do forget who you're talking about.

The God I know always remembers his promises. And that would include promises made in what Christians call the Old Testament.

You're bottling him up. Hemming him in. Limiting his abilities, intentions, and promises.

You're what I call a partial Christian. So blind and limited in your sliver of knowledge that you perform the identical same sin as those who brought the Christ before the powers that be and became furious with his answer, ". . . I AM."

The God I know never changes. That would mean that what He finds abominable in the Old Testament, He finds abominable in the New Testament. Those promises He made in the Old Testament, still hold - even in spite of narrow-minded bigots such as yourself, hiding behind the cross to spill your hatred.

You go right ahead, but you push, and I'm liable to take the Good Book - you know as an expert in Revelation - the two witnesses - not one - two, and spank you with it.

Now the land belongs to the modern state of Israel. Oddly, it came forth in one day - one DAY. Just as prophecied.

Now, are you sweating the "end of the time of the Gentiles?"

If so, open your thread on Revelation, and learn something.

reply to post by nenothtu

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Yes I can.
Heredity of the Palestinians and the long history of their being a distinct country gives the inhabitants the right to continue living on the land they possessed and their forefathers possessed.
Some usurpers from another land and claiming some hypothetical hereditary right to take the land away from the inhabitants of that land is ridiculous and especially if they can not produce proof to substantiate that claim.
They just walk in and say, this is my land because I say so, and everyone is just supposed to pack up and leave?

reply to post by FarArcher

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Now the land belongs to the modern state of Israel. Oddly, it came forth in one day - one DAY. Just as prophecied.

Nothing odd about self fulfilling prophecy..

Now if these events occured BEFORE we knew what was written, that would be odd...

reply to post by FarArcher

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. . .nations form, break apart, declare independence,. . .

Do you actually think that is an argument?
Tell me which one of those countries just popped up out of nowhere, meaning the entire population was imported from across the sea and just took over.

reply to post by FarArcher

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. . .narrow-minded bigots such as yourself, hiding behind the cross to spill your hatred.

I did ask for your definition of a bigot and I guess it would be a Christian.
So, like I said "of the devil".
So, to you a Christian is a bigot, and to me a denier of Jesus Christ is of the devil.
Not really, it takes more than just someone denying Jesus to be of the devil. I'm not that much of a bigot.
They also have to believe in lying, stealing and murder as a way of life.
And it is not hatred, just telling the truth. If I see someone murder a person, I will say, that person just murdered that other person. That is not an indication of hatred.
God is the one who will make that determination in the end.
My point is those who stand by and say nothing are assisting the murderer and will be held accountable.
I have compassion on those who will be punished for doing nothing so I give a warning that in fact you will be punished for your silence.
I do not mean you because you are not a Christian and belong to another God, not of my own who is the maker of good things. But if a professing Christian believes they can acquiesce to to this sort of criminality and actually support it, and still expect to go to heaven, then they are wrong.
You are bent on creating your own heaven here on earth so I am not concerned about you. You have already chosen not to go to the heaven where god dwells but you will take a heaven you make yourself.

reply to post by backinblack

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BackinBlack, I know you can't stand me, and the feeling is mutual.

However, your inability to grasp history and historical perspective is beyond ridiculous.

For millennia, it took years and battles and more time to establish a nation. When the Franks began their conquests, it didn't result in "France" in a day.

The United States took years and years even after we won our independence from Britain.

Nations historically, took long painful years and decades to come into being.

This Israel, in one day became a recognized nation.

Something completely alien and impossible a few thousand years ago when the prophecy was written.

Is the uniqueness of this starting to sink in?

Or is your hatred of me such that you're being stupid on purpose?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by nenothtu

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Yes I can.
Heredity of the Palestinians and the long history of their being a distinct country gives the inhabitants the right to continue living on the land they possessed and their forefathers possessed.
Some usurpers from another land and claiming some hypothetical hereditary right to take the land away from the inhabitants of that land is ridiculous and especially if they can not produce proof to substantiate that claim.
They just walk in and say, this is my land because I say so, and everyone is just supposed to pack up and leave?

No, you can't. When you mix both hot and cold, you get lukewarm. What happens to "lukewarm"? No, you can't have it both ways. One or the other, or we already know the results.

You have to choose either the spiritual or the corporeal. Which do you choose?

Your God then fails at keeping promises HE has made, and instead lets YOU, a mere mortal, decide which He should keep and which he should renege on?

What kind of God is that?

OH, and those "usurpers from a foreign land"? How do they differ from the usurpers from a foreign land who conquered the area in 638 AD and settled the "Palestinians" in there? I know how they differ. Do you?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by FarArcher

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. . .nations form, break apart, declare independence,. . .

Do you actually think that is an argument?
Tell me which one of those countries just popped up out of nowhere, meaning the entire population was imported from across the sea and just took over.

Zimbabwe, but in reverse. The population was exported, forced out, rather than imported.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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You gotta be ****ing me!

Many Israelis were born and raised there. Many bought the land from broke-assed Arabs, and only when their religious leaders started raising hell, they "altered" the agreement and some claimed they never sold it, some claimed that they changed their minds, on and on.

Did other Jews come in? You betcha!

This is the only "Jewish" homeland. The only nation they can rest assured they won't be persecuted, for the first time in centuries.

reply to post by jmdewey60

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Well that's just great.

You're telling me I'm going to be judged on my silence.

When I meet my Maker, I assure you, I'll do so with great fear and trembling. But not for the reasons you suggest. I'll admit, among sinners, I'm right up there in the top few. And I'll answer for everything I've done or haven't done.

But I won't have to apologize for being one narrow-minded, judgmental, bigoted Israeli/Jewish hating SOB who with his words does more to hurt the concept of what a Christian is.

You want the Almighty to do things your way. You want Him to do things as you see fit.

Sorry.

His house.

His rules.

And your BS means not one whit to Him.

reply to post by FarArcher

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This Israel, in one day became a recognized nation.
Something completely alien and impossible a few thousand years ago when the prophecy was written.
Is the uniqueness of this starting to sink in?
Or is your hatred of me such that you're being stupid on purpose?

The Jews wanted that land for many many years before that "one" particular day..
So I don't see where the "only one day" fits in...

Hatred for you??
I think you have an issue with discerning hatred from disagreement..
Why would I hate you?
I don't even know you...
Though it's obvious you have the inbuilt trait of hating people you have never met..
That fact shows forth in many of your posts...

reply to post by nenothtu

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. . .I know how they differ.

I don't see how making enigmatic statements fills the role of an actual argument?
If you ever get around to making a point let me know.
As for promises, they are fulfilled in the new sons of Abraham as I stated earlier.
The way to understand the promises made in the old times is realize that when you see "Israel", to think of those new sons of God who are the truly converted believers, as Jesus said, to be born again. Being born into a particular ethnic group does not give you a free pass into the Kingdom of God.
If someone wants to invent a God and create a Kingdom themselves, and name it in such a way of having an outward appearance as being a nation dedicated to that God you made, then that is something different. Then you have the power to make your own rules for who is allowed in.
But when your life is over, then your soul will perish with your body and you will not enter the real Kingdom that lasts forever. That is your choice but I am under no obligation to support you in your pursuit of a satisfaction in this life. What you get from your endeavors is what you will enjoy in this brief moment which is your life. I have a higher goal which is a earth made new and one that God makes Himself and will never perish and the inhabitants will never die.
If you have no faith in such a thing then you have no interest in how you treat others and so my judgment of "of the devil" with means self gratification without regard to the consequences, to others, or to yourself.

reply to post by FarArcher

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Many Israelis were born and raised there.

It would be inconsistent of me to think that people who have a family history of generations of living in Palestine before 1945 should be kicked out for being Jewish.
I don't see how anyone should be obligated to give anyone a homeland. People need to be able to feel safe where they live and not hunted down and hounded for being ethnically impure or whatever reason may be made up to persecute any class of people. Doing the same to another group is not the way to bring about peace and safety. It destroys the very concept they should be supporting, so no I do not accept that as a rational for genocide and ethnic cleansing.

reply to post by backinblack

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BackinBlack, you don't BECOME a nation in one day!

This was a first!

Declared, and instantly recognized?

One day?

This was written thousands of years ago! This was considered impossible!

But here's the kicker. It was a two-part prophecy. Israel's status as a nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day. Here's where it gets better: unlike other nations who become nations as a result of war, Israel's independence and nation was the CAUSE of a war.

"Before she goes into labor, she give birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has heard of such a thing? Can a country be born in a day, or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children." Isaiah 66: 7-8.

So Israel in 1948 becomes a nation, and is immediately attacked for doing so.

Not like other nations are formed - fighting and THEN becoming a nation.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by nenothtu

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. . .I know how they differ.

I don't see how making enigmatic statements fills the role of an actual argument?

Nice try. The full quote is this:

OH, and those "usurpers from a foreign land"? How do they differ from the usurpers from a foreign land who conquered the area in 638 AD and settled the "Palestinians" in there? I know how they differ. Do you?

It's not an "enigmatic statement", it's a question. Apparently too enigmatic a question to gain an answer. Let me clarify: Do-you-know-how-those-two-sets-of-foreign-usurpers-differ?

If you ever get around to making a point let me know.

There's one, just above here. Quick, catch it before it gets away!

As for promises, they are fulfilled in the new sons of Abraham as I stated earlier.

Among whom you include "Palestinians", but not Jews, I take it. Interesting take on that. Is there any logic to it?

The way to understand the promises made in the old times is realize that when you see "Israel", to think of those new sons of God who are the truly converted believers, as Jesus said, to be born again. Being born into a particular ethnic group does not give you a free pass into the Kingdom of God.

"Palestinians" take precedence over Jews in this equation exactly how? You contradict your previous position here by excluding membership in any particular ethnic group, i.e. "blood heredity", so what are the new criteria now?

BTW, I can't say that I believe ethnicity EVER gave one a free pass into heaven. I don't believe folks can get to heaven on a technicality, the number of Christians and Jews trying to notwithstanding. Then again, we aren't discussing heaven, so I'll get back to the Nation of Israel now...

If someone wants to invent a God and create a Kingdom themselves, and name it in such a way of having an outward appearance as being a nation dedicated to that God you made, then that is something different. Then you have the power to make your own rules for who is allowed in.

Hold right there. I "made" no God. There is but One, and I neither made Him nor do I make policy for Him. He is quite capable of making policy for himself, and that policy is clearly stated. It doesn't need any sort of "amplification" from either you or I. Likewise, I didn't write the rules, I'm only bound to uphold them, rather than reinterpret them.

But when your life is over, then your soul will perish with your body and you will not enter the real Kingdom that lasts forever.

Sorry, hoss. That's not YOUR call. That would be between myself and any deity I deal with - which is most certainly not you. You, sir, can preach me into hell all day long. Doesn't mean I'll go. I recognize a higher authority than yourself, and He may just have other ideas. I prefer to allow Him to think for himself.

That is your choice but I am under no obligation to support you in your pursuit of a satisfaction in this life.

Nor am I under any obligation to support you, or the "Palestinians" for that matter, in any of YOUR temporal pursuits. I'd say we're about even there.

What you get from your endeavors is what you will enjoy in this brief moment which is your life.

Again, not your call, however hard you try to wrest it from the hands of God. I do not give you that power, and neither has He.

I have a higher goal which is a earth made new and one that God makes Himself and will never perish and the inhabitants will never die.

Good luck with that, and I truly hope you make it. That will of course be between you and your God.

If you have no faith in such a thing then you have no interest in how you treat others and so my judgment of "of the devil" with means self gratification without regard to the consequences, to others, or to yourself.

That's a mighty sweeping judgment, considering that you know nothing of me, my background, OR my motivations. I reject that judgment. I'll place it on appeal to a higher court for you. Get ready to defend it.

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