Chinese fighter 'has changed power balance'

Originally posted by tooo many pills
Ariel fighter jet combat is soooo WWII.

WWIII will be fought with hypersonic cruise missiles, tipped with nuclear warheads that are capable of orbiting the Earth from space for years at a time. Then at the push of a button they will fall out of the sky directly over the targeted country and take out every important military installation before the fighter jets can even get off the ground.

Unless, they focus all of their country's energy into a single, high-powered missile defense laserbeam they wont even know what hit them or how to respond.

edit on 15-1-2011 by tooo many pills because: (no reason given)

Um... I didn't say that, but I thought it

Back to the original post: is F35 outclassed by the Chinese prototype?

Personally, I think not. Bigger and faster is not always the way to get on someone's six. Given a choice, and being on the Oz side of things, I think the F-35 would be the winning ride. Just my gut feeling.

reply to post by FredT

1) Impressive as the J-20 looks (note "looks") it has had one flight.

Wrong. It has been flying for months... but secretly, and not ``fighting flying`` either.

When it enters serial production then its a much bigger issue.

Yep... WHEN...

The s-47 was an impressive airframe as well but never advance beyond the prototype.

Apparently, from what I've read, it's more advanced than the prototype.

According to AWST engines are an weakness.

They are testing both the Russian engine, which is already tested and proven... and the Chinese copy of it... which they would want to, for pride...

That being said with Airbus and Boeing falling over themselves to hand the Chicom government production the technology is well within their grasp

Totally.

3) In terms of Australia, even with the large size of the fighter, its unlikely that it will pose a direct threat to Australia

Indeed. They have a maximum of 1500 nautical miles... and from China, they can reach Indonesia... but they would need refueling to reach Australia. Of course if they were to install bases in South Vietnam...

And indeed, till they have deployed it in 300-400+ numbers, it ain't a threat... that if it's a threat to begin with... which we shall see when they start really testing it combat wise.

Must read article on the J-20

Originally posted by illusive man
really need to ask this

China holds what 95% of rare earth which is used in the state of the art computers and so on in the US war machine,

My understanding is that they hold 95% of the cheaply attained rare earth ores and they do so with ZERO regard to environmental controls etc. While we also went through a similar period of "who cares for the environment" during our industrial revolution, China's growth coupled with insatiable world demand and its huge population and relitivly small % of airable land will soon force it to pay the piper in terms of contamination.

Originally posted by Chakotay

Back to the original post: is F35 outclassed by the Chinese prototype?

That's a tough comparison. Set aside that we know nothing about the J-20 in terms of RCS / Combat Radius / etc. We are talking about a heavy twin engine fighter / bomber in the F-111 class. I would be more likely to compare it with the F-22 than the F-35

Ignore me, Geography fail

reply to post by TheWill


Wrong country.

But you knew that?

reply to post by Chakotay


Oh, so you saw that, then.

I was suitably ashamed BEFORE anybody pointed it out. Now, I'm in a state of ashamedness that is... well, really ashamed.

(In my defence, a car alarm is going off outside my window and it's making my brain fail. Or it was in first year that they brought it up, and I googled it after posting to realise that I was a tard)

reply to post by FredT


What I'm thinking, Fred, is somehow someone gets a few of these J-20's to Oz (How? Why? Undetected?) and they face off with 50 or 60 networked F-35's and their emplaced C3I, JSTARS, etc. AND sea/ground G2A batteries.

I think the F-35's win. Easily. Hands down.

I also think its a battle that is UNLIKELY to ever take place in the time frame of the F-35.

Here's a little Hangar Talk about F-35.

And a little more: I Gotta Get Me One Of These!

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


This is a BS quote. The J-20 is not "superior" to the US airfleet and it hasn't even flown enough sorties to go into production. China is probably three or four years away before they start to field these. I read # like this and I think, yeah, let's all get scared #less and spend a trillion more dollars building newer # to defend ourselves from the boogeyman.

reply to post by Vitchilo


China has been around for 5000 years, however unified China hasnt been around nearly that long. Huge difference there.

The new Chinese prototype is just some showboating as the Secretary of Defense was in country. We have to see if the Chinese can manufacture enough of them and with quality in mind, then they have to do tests and drills, train pilots to fly them in a combat setting, and other measures to make the aircraft operational. All the world has right now is an aircraft that looks like a sports car on the surface, but what is under the hood? It is too soon to make claims that the Chinese have thwarted any strategic advantage held by the US in the Pacific.

However, the Chinese are steaming along to bridge the gap with the US as the lone super power. How long that will take, anyone's guess is as good as mine? Just as the US shouldn't underestimate the Chinese, the Chinese should do the same with the US or any other nation in their sphere of interest. If they continue to threaten their neighbors with a continued insistence on bold moves in the arena of militarization, other countries in the Pacific will boost their military advantage as well. Moreover, the world will have many arms races going on. In that climate the other countries will most assuredly develop nuclear weapons to deter their perceived aggressor. So, China is playing a dangerous game that the US and Russia barely got out of alive in the last century. To put it simply, I am not going to lose any sleep over this new Chinese aircraft.

reply to post by glome


That was along the same lines I was thinking also.. To me, just because someone owns a Bugatti Veyron does not mean they know how to drive it. Technology only gets us so far, at which point the only way to move it beyond is the human element.

The Chinese imo have come to the conclusion that quantity is not necessarily better than quality. Changing that mindset is not only time consuming in their case, but also cost prohibitive in terms of production, training etc. It also forces them to adopt new doctrine to not only take advantage of higher quality, but also in terms of repair / replacement parts since there is less to go around.

The only area imo they have an advantage in is going to be manpower on the ground, and even then losses would be high depending on which type ofArmy group being used (A,B or C).

As a comparison the US Highway infrastructure is estimated in value close to 500 billion to 1 trillion dollars since its inception up to know. China's highway system is a rip off of the US, right down to the green signs for towns and mileage. It took the US from 1955 to 1991 to complete the envisioned intersate system.

My point is China is attempting to upgrade all of their sectors in an effort to upfgrade their country. There is nothing wrong with that but just the magnitude of projects they are undertaking, cost is eventually going to catch up with them.

All of it is irrelevant as the US has 10x as many nukes as China and could nuke their country to oblivion.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
All of it is irrelevant as the US has 10x as many nukes as China and could nuke their country to oblivion.

Try convincing US politicians and the military establishment that all of this is irrelevant.

The US certainly could nuke China into oblivion, and so could France or the UK. If China used what “few” nukes they had against the US then you’re going to be crispy and dead no matter how many you can send back.

The idea is not to get to the stage where we're lobbing nukes at each other.

Before reading this thread I saw the headlines about China's F-20 prototype. At first glance it did look eerily familiar to the f-22. But after examining the tail section and body , IMO it appears to be a combination of both the f-22 and YF-23.

f-22
media.defenseindustrydaily.com...

j-20
luckybogey.files.wordpress.com...

yf-23
www.fas.org...

But I agree with posters on this thread about current US level of tech in regards to sr-71, f-117 and the f-22. Even though sr-71 retired, these are our current modern fighter/bomber, besides b-2(originally designed to penetrate Soviet Defenses to drop nuclear ordinance, and later retrofited for conventional munitions.

I do doubt either the US or China wants to get into a pissing contest. Too much at state for both countries. If it did come down to that, being an American probably have bias towards US, but I like our kill to death ratio IMO. You can have a billion people but if every American can kill 10 Chinese for every 1 American casualty. That's 3 billion people American's can kill. (Like I state pure speculation)

Actually the US has a space based missile defense system that will adequate for up to several hundred warheads...the sase number China, Israel, UK, France happen to have. Interesting number huh? Not a coincidence.

Originally posted by Soshh

Originally posted by princeofpeace
All of it is irrelevant as the US has 10x as many nukes as China and could nuke their country to oblivion.

Try convincing US politicians and the military establishment that all of this is irrelevant.

The US certainly could nuke China into oblivion, and so could France or the UK. If China used what “few” nukes they had against the US then you’re going to be crispy and dead no matter how many you can send back.

The idea is not to get to the stage where we're lobbing nukes at each other.

Funny the americans fell threatened about this new airplane... Heck, I have a feeling that any country in the world is a threat to America in its point of view.

And thats exactly they want Americans to feel. Keep them scared, keep the weapons coming.

The China threat is SO overrated but the US always has to have the next demon around the corner to keep its power and weapons flowing...and as long as it has (and knows how to make) advanced weapons, then the power will continue flowing. Its interdependent. The US is NOT going anywhere.

Originally posted by blackcube
Funny the americans fell threatened about this new airplane... Heck, I have a feeling that any country in the world is a threat to America in its point of view.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Actually the US has a space based missile defense system that will adequate for up to several hundred warheads...the sase number China, Israel, UK, France happen to have. Interesting number huh? Not a coincidence.

Originally posted by Soshh

Originally posted by princeofpeacewww.abovetopsecret.com...
All of it is irrelevant as the US has 10x as many nukes as China and could nuke their country to oblivion.

Try convincing US politicians and the military establishment that all of this is irrelevant.

The US certainly could nuke China into oblivion, and so could France or the UK. If China used what “few” nukes they had against the US then you’re going to be crispy and dead no matter how many you can send back.

The idea is not to get to the stage where we're lobbing nukes at each other.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yeah, ICBM or certain other launch plantforms can contain multiple warheads that will disperse when re-entering atmosphere, so don't see how a space based missile defense could go after 10 ICBM's with 4 warheads each, when you have another 10 ICBM's loaded with 4 dummy's. That's 80 potential targets. A laser maybe? Missile system, highly unlikely.

You might think warhead = ICBM, but that's not always the case. You can intercept missile while in pre-orbit phase with greater accuracy than you can once it's reentered atmosphere.



www.missilethreat.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.defensenews.com...

Besides that;

Proof? It's been theorized by some in the past that the US has the capabilities to deploy a space based missile defense system, but never has it been shown to be legitimate.

Could be misunderstanding you, but with no info to back up your claims it's hard and unwise to take a space based "missile" approach.

the f 22 is 30 yr old technology that the rest of the world has yet to catch up on , but getting closer the Chinese and Russian fighter will not be operational until the 2015 to 2017 time frame and it will take them an additional 5 yrs to build up any type of numbers of these aircraft so were looking at 2020 to 2023 for any threat to the raptor while the us already has 187 raptors in flight today ....... the us spends 60 billion a yr on black projects a yr that's is the entire budget of the Chinese military so yes we have planes better than the f22 flying in the black air force but no need as of today to mass produce those planes..... the first raptor flew in 1997 took an additional 13 yrs for the competitors to build something similar