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Chinese fighter 'has changed power balance'

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posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by DrakeDarc
 


You've been the superpower for some time now, and you have come to assume that this is the way that it will stay

Britain was the superpower for an extraordinary length of time, and now look at us. An island of bankers. Yes, the united states, by being so big, is less dependent upon supply lines than Britain, and so it would be harder to lay seige to the entire country and starve them into submission, but you assume that you have better technology only because "everyone knows" you do.

The chinese have the land area, the know how, the numbers, and probably the attitude. If there was a Chino-American war, the Chinese would be my bet.


At any rate, America hasn't noticed that China has already become the superpower. America thinks, and always has thought, that it's about having the bigger gun. China has become the superpower by using money. Which is ironic, seeing as communism and capitalism aren't usually bed-buddies.




posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 11:50 AM
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China doesn't know the rules of the game? Really? China has been there for 5000 years, America for not even 300. So please.

China doesn't need to equal the US in terms of power and technology. They need a good strategy and win using asymmetric warfare. That's how you win using a smaller and less technological force against a stronger and technological force.

Like Sun Tzu said, hit where they are weak, avoid where they are strong, strike when and where they do not expect it... basic rules of fighting...

China could detonate a nuke above the US, destroying all electronics not protected from EMP... Minutes after or before, destroy US GPS satellites, using their war spacecraft (which they already have), then sink US aircraft carriers in the pacific using their subs.

While this is going on, hide the population in underground cities, which they have...

Of course the US could nuke China... but still, as Mao said, China isn't afraid of nuclear war.

Here's what he said to the Indian premier back in 1950.

``The atomic bomb is nothing to be afraid of. China has millions of people. It cannot be bombed out of existence. If someone else can drop an atomic bomb, I can too. The death of 10 or 20 million people is nothing to be afraid of...``

Now most likely China doesn't think like that anymore...

Now all the ``China is peaceful`` thingee... will soon be tested when the new leader comes in next year, which he promised would stop ``appeasing`` the US.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


You are correct. It is politics. A congressional block was placed on the export of the F-22 which meant that none of the allies could buy it (even if they could afford it).

F-35 is the only thing on the table for US aligned countries. Its like being in the market for a luxury sedan and being told you can only buy from one manufacturer. Then being told by the salesman he'll only sell you a compact.

Thats the issue behind the article. The J-20 coming out is just another useful stick to beat the MoD with.


edit on 15-1-2011 by justwokeup because: typo



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by vimanarider
 


The nick is Ilovecatbinlady but you know this and you are just irritated by my comments. The US needs put back in its hole and I hope the Chinese will do it. When it happens I hope you learn to swallow real hard when you get a taste of your own Yank medicine. As for your demented video game stats, do you think the Chinese are stupid enough to pay $100 or more for a video game?
edit on 15-1-2011 by Ilovecatbinlady because: typo



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
China doesn't know the rules of the game? Really? China has been there for 5000 years, America for not even 300. So please.


In that same amount of time how long has the present Chinese Government been around? What barely 60+ years young? I'm sorry, but that whole "Ancient Chinese" argument holds no water. If they were so great then why have there been so many revolutions, civil wars and many changes of Government in those 5,000 years? No offense and I do admire their ancient culture, it is amazing don't get me wrong. However their present Government and the possibility of being a major world player is relatively new to them. Expect and anticipate mistakes. Wasn't it just a few decades ago where Mao killed off tens of millions of their own during the cultural revolution? What makes people think that if they would do that to their own they wouldn't do such a thing abroad?


China doesn't need to equal the US in terms of power and technology. They need a good strategy and win using asymmetric warfare. That's how you win using a smaller and less technological force against a stronger and technological force.


That argument also doesn't hold much weight IMO. They are growing and will have major influence there is no competing with the US. They are a growing world power. The US will grow in the future but at a slower rate. The only thing the US needs to do is stop the hemorrhaging of our higher technology.


Like Sun Tzu said, hit where they are weak, avoid where they are strong, strike when and where they do not expect it... basic rules of fighting...


Sun Tzu also Said: Never under estimate or over estimate an opponent, consider them an equal. If they are an equal then they can be defeated.


China could detonate a nuke above the US, destroying all electronics not protected from EMP... Minutes after or before, destroy US GPS satellites, using their war spacecraft (which they already have), then sink US aircraft carriers in the pacific using their subs.


I don't know if you've noticed but China has the light bulb, cell phones, color TVs and computers. They have built a fairly modern society over the past couple of decades which is also as fragile and susceptible to an EMP/Nuke blast as well. Plus they don't have the deep sea navy to come close to our shores.


While this is going on, hide the population in underground cities, which they have...
Of course the US could nuke China... but still, as Mao said, China isn't afraid of nuclear war.


EXACTLY because Mao wasn't afraid of killing his own people something to the tune of 30 to 40 million. There is that very real history again.


Here's what he said to the Indian premier back in 1950.
"`The atomic bomb is nothing to be afraid of. China has millions of people. It cannot be bombed out of existence. If someone else can drop an atomic bomb, I can too. The death of 10 or 20 million people is nothing to be afraid of...``


Need I say more?
He was actually threatening India which has the second largest population on the planet and will be China's regional competitor in the near future.




Now all the ``China is peaceful`` thingee... will soon be tested when the new leader comes in next year, which he promised would stop ``appeasing`` the US.



Stay tuned.....

edit on 15-1-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:13 PM
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America has one thing that makes China change their underwear every time they think about it.
Chuck Norris















Gonna need more than Chinese fighter jets to beat that bitches!



edit on 15-1-2011 by XxRagingxPandaxX because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-1-2011 by XxRagingxPandaxX because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady
reply to post by vimanarider
 


The nick is Ilovecatbinlady but you know this and you are just irritated by my comments. The US needs put back in its hole and I hope the Chinese will do it. When it happens I hope you learn to swallow real hard when you get a taste of your own Yank medicine. As for your demented video game stats, do you think the Chinese are stupid enough to pay $100 or more for a video game?
edit on 15-1-2011 by Ilovecatbinlady because: typo


Well thank you for your incredibly insightful commentary. Allow me to crawl back into my "hole" and take my "yank medicide".
Individuals like yourself are the primary reason that sites like ATS have such a negative public persona...but hey lets blame that on the USA as well.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by Vitchilo
 


While I somehwat agree, you are missing one of Sun Tzu's core requirements, which is where the Chinese have failed:

To know your enemy is to know yourself.

The Chinese are insular in thought and have this misconception that the rules in place are there for anyone except China. All we need to do is go back and look at their entrance into the WTO. All of the commitments they made in order to join, have been largely ignored, with the big one being the valuation and free floating of the Yuan.

That was suppose to have occured within 2 years of entrance into the WTO, and we are still waiting. Any attempt to pressure them is met with the standard its an internal matter of China so but out. Recently its become so bad that Congress was talking about forcing trade legislation geard at forcing a valuation in the Yuan.

China said they would use their nuclear option on the US dollar if that occured.


Chinas eventual downfall will be from thinking they are exempt from the rules. It will also come from internal dissent now that their people are getting a taste of econmic freedom. China has had a bunch of large scale protests against the central government in some of there Southwest, West and Northwest provinces.

So yeah, couple their refusal to play by the same rules, patent and copyright infringement, artifically deflating their currency to create a massivre trade imbalance with countries, and then turning around and buying items from any country except the US.

Back to Sun Tzu - To know your enemy is to know yourself..

In this case, I think China is severely underestimating their enemy.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by vimanarider
 





Well thank you for your incredibly insightful commentary. Allow me to crawl back into my "hole" and take my "yank medicide". Individuals like yourself are the primary reason that sites like ATS have such a negative public persona...but hey lets blame that on the USA as well.


Oh please give me a break. What audience are you talking to since you are really not addressing what I am saying. It is your insouciance that has sealed the reputation of the American people. And how can a website have a "persona"? And the US is behind many great evils around the world; yes let us blame the US especially the bankers.
edit on 15-1-2011 by Ilovecatbinlady because: typo



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


But you could say very much the same about America from the end of WWII to, well, now, really.

They have nuclear weapons - and are indeed the only ones to have used them - and yet they feel that they have the right to attack anyone* else for developing such.

America has one political system that is apparently based on freedom and equality, but not, apparently, the freedom of other countries to follow something other than democracy**.

And when all else fails, they can always threaten anyone else with civilian-targeting war. Call it what you like, but if it was someone else doing it - america would call it terrorism.

I'm not saying that America shouldn't do what it does, or that it should. I'm just saying, pots and kettles.


[size=-3]
* and **: Exaggerations for effect.
edit on 15/1/2011 by TheWill because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by XxRagingxPandaxX
America has one thing that makes China change their underwear every time they think about it.
Chuck Norris










Gonna need more than Chinese fighter jets to beat that bitches!




Now why would a ginger bloke wear a ginger beard?

And Chuck Norris has an enormous head for a short bloke.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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Thats what Chuck Norris has to say about your post!








posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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i think the US has long ago figured out how to detect stealth aircraft. the weapons array that would be utilized in case of a "strategic hostile action" would be far superior to the F-22 or the J-35 capabilities, if they were even needed.
not all of the billions of dollars spent in the US military budget are for 700 dollar toilet seats or even the JSF...and the military is not as close-minded as some think, especially when it comes to thinking outside the box, they just tend to be "closed-mouthed"



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 



The US will grow in the future but at a slower rate.

Hopefully. But first the US population needs to do a purge of the scum in government.


The only thing the US needs to do is stop the hemorrhaging of our higher technology.

That's gonna be hard since the new religion is the $$$.



I don't know if you've noticed but China has the light bulb, cell phones, color TVs and computers. They have built a fairly modern society over the past couple of decades which is also as fragile and susceptible to an EMP/Nuke blast as well.

I would argue that if you would cut the power to both nation at the same time, China would be in better shape.


Plus they don't have the deep sea navy to come close to our shores.

They don't need to be near your shores to sink your pacific aircraft carrier fleet... just wait for it to show up.


Need I say more?
He was actually threatening India which has the second largest population on the planet and will be China's regional competitor in the near future.

Actually I didn't explain why he said that to India... he didn't say that to threaten India, he was answering the question about him being afraid of China entering the Korean war and if he was afraid of the US nuking China.


Stay tuned.....

Indeed... hopefully China will follow their long tradition of military doctrine based on ``defense`` of the country...and not invasion of other countries for gains... but that next leader seems to think as Mao as a great man... and Mao was different.



The Chinese are insular in thought and have this misconception that the rules in place are there for anyone except China. All we need to do is go back and look at their entrance into the WTO. All of the commitments they made in order to join, have been largely ignored, with the big one being the valuation and free floating of the Yuan.

Totally. China violates almost all rules of the WTO.

China sure faces a difficult future... probably as hard as the US...



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 





Somehow, I must reserve some skepicism to this, as I feel with companies like Lockheed....


You forget that President Clinton gave the Chinese our military secrets a decade ago.



...There is a growing number of accusers saying President Clinton betrayed this country when he allowed massive transfers of American secrets to the Chinese in exhange for illegal contributions to his re-election campaign.... William Jefferson Clinton Memorial Library



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:54 PM
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I'm not going to go on record, voicing the possible detrimental flaws of the J-20. Let the Chinese figure it out.
This is an awesome fighter! This baby needs No More Testing! It blows away anything that we have, and should be mass produced as soon as possible. In fact, every Chinese citizen should have one in their back yard!

These should be the mainstay of the PRC Aircraft carriers and PRC air force.I hope they build a billion of them.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by TheWill
But you could say very much the same about America from the end of WWII to, well, now, really.


Not quite but I do see where you are coming from. The US was not a world power by any stretch of the imagination until WWII, and only after the war.


Originally posted by TheWill
They have nuclear weapons - and are indeed the only ones to have used them - and yet they feel that they have the right to attack anyone* else for developing such.


We do have nuclear weapons, and yes we have used them. My stand on that has not changed in the fact that if Japan did not want to be attacked or have nuclear weapons against them, then they should not have attacked the United States. We either use a nuke on their homeislands to force and end to the war or loose upwards of 200k-800k men invading. As with any war, its ugly and only occurs when the diplomats fail.

and yes, I believe the US does have a right to lecture other countries on the development of a nuclear weapons program if for no other reason than to serve as a warning to others on what could happen if nukes are used. To me that policy, telling other countries no to nukes, is like the person who made a mistake a drove drunk, killing some people and going to prison. Eventually the person will get out and will have to deal with thir actions. Some of those people will have had such a profound impact on their thinking, that they willl talk to other who coule commit the same crime.

Why not take the experience and say no, this is bad, does not good and is more trouble than what its worth?



Originally posted by TheWill
America has one political system that is apparently based on freedom and equality, but not, apparently, the freedom of other countries to follow something other than democracy**.


I think at times people confuse Government with ideologies. We put pressure on China, N. Korea, Middle East countries etc etc etc in an effort to get those Governments to treate their own people better. I know the US is targeted by a lot fo people for our actions, and thats fine, but at the same time it proves the point we try to make. People in some of those countries who criticise US policy, or their own Governments policies, is the goal. The abiloity for the peope to speak out without fear of being dragged out in the middle of the night.

Also, if we want to go down the road of the Us stopping countries from self detrmination, whcih we do I wont deny that, I never see the counter argument. Why arent those people who complain about the US interfering in countries self determination, while remaining silent on the Taiwan issue?


Originally posted by TheWill
And when all else fails, they can always threaten anyone else with civilian-targeting war. Call it what you like, but if it was someone else doing it - america would call it terrorism.


Any attacks that purposely target civilian populations in an effort tobring about political change is terrorism, and flies in the face of freedom of expression, assembly and association. Those people who complain about Israeli actions towards Palestinians have the same train of mind as those Israelis who complain about the actions of the Palestinians and so forth.

It has been the policy of the armed force of the US to not purposely target civilian areas, and to avoid the loss of civilian life at all costs. However, it is war, its not perfect and people are going to get killed.


Originally posted by TheWill
I'm not saying that America shouldn't do what it does, or that it should. I'm just saying, pots and kettles.


Which is a fair and valid point, not arguing with you there. The problem is though we are in a position to lecture that yes, we have done these things that you are doing,and we know what lies at the end of that road, and its not going to be pretty. Why should we not use our experiecnes and mistakes in an effort to head it off at the pass when we see others heading down the same road?

The US used to stand as an example to all. Personally, I still beleive we do but we are at that point in the anals of history where we have done all we can, and those we have lectures are going to do what they are going to do.

It doesnt mean we should stop trying to make thigns better though...


just my 2 cents...



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by justwokeup
 


The F-22 was a homegrown American only project. The F-35 is a joint product between the US and several other Governments, which in the end lower cost of production, research and development.

economical choice? most likely.

The F-35 is not a bad fighter... I guess we can try to look at the bright side and acknowledge that we will at least be familiar with the weapons being used against us at some point down the road.



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 12:59 PM
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With regards to the "Video Game" Analogy.

Need I remind people that in Real war there are no "do overs" or "Re-spawning"!
People die and sometimes by the thousands.


Having said that, China has a ways to catch up. The remotely piloted drones over Afghanistan and Pakistan are the wave of the future. Stealth fighters and bombers are great but require a human pilot to train, feed and house. In the not too distant future robots will dominate the battle field negating any and all troop numerical superiority.

This isn't science fiction anymore. The micro chip and now Nano Technology will be the wave of the future. China thinks they have it tied up with their hording of the rare Earth minerals but not everything that is high tech for the military relies on those...

reply to post by Vitchilo
 




They don't need to be near your shores to sink your pacific aircraft carrier fleet... just wait for it to show up.


This is the problem with some who envision a war between the US and China and or Russia. They seem to always imagine the US on the offensive in these imagined conflicts and that all the adversary has to do is sit and wait. Now if I and many here can figure out whats flawed with that scenario wouldn't one think that those whose job it is to war game various scenarios wouldn't also come to the same conclusions?

An Admiral wouldn't just sail the fleet into harms way while knowing full well what the enemy is capable of....
edit on 15-1-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
i think the US has long ago figured out how to detect stealth aircraft. the weapons array that would be utilized in case of a "strategic hostile action" would be far superior to the F-22 or the J-35 capabilities, if they were even needed.
not all of the billions of dollars spent in the US military budget are for 700 dollar toilet seats or even the JSF...and the military is not as close-minded as some think, especially when it comes to thinking outside the box, they just tend to be "closed-mouthed"


I have thought about this as well.. The F-117 stealth fighter was doing test flights near the end of the vietnam war. Makes one wonder what we actually have since its apparent our current military hardware seems to be about 20-30 behind of our actual capability.

As far as US tactics that is the one thing that other countries hated about the US, even more so during the cold war. The Soviets main problem was our ability to take our entire doctrine of warfare, and throw it in the trash in the middle of an egagement / war because its not working. It made us unpredictable, which in military situations is a lot more desirable than following doctrine.

I am curious how the recent developments in anti grav and cloaking technology are going to play out. Hell, we could do away with the bulk of our military. Outfit a few assassins with cloaking shrouds and let them take out leadership that way.



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