There are no laws that say being individualistic, defiant, opinionated, or a jerk is illegal.
And even if those laws were passed, they would be illegitimate and absurd.

And yet it's totally ok to IGNORE the fact they are fed verified LIES daily?
It's totally ok they are treated like cattle and fed false information as if it's medicine?

These failures we call public school are the reason society sucks.

It's not the kids fault. That's the LIE.
This is the ADULTS fault in society.
The ADULTS FAILED, therefore the Kids won't listen to the hypocrisy anymore.

Cause = Effect.

I don't know how it is in America, but in England behaviour varied from class room to class room. If the teacher was incompetent and a push over, kids would act up. If the teacher was competent and a hard ass, you'd struggle to find misbehaviour.

That was my experience in a British school.

You'd get along with my Auntie, she's vice principal of a school for 'bad children'. Has nothing but disdain for my generation

I think the reason why kids misbehave like that is because they start to realize they have the power. What is the worst that can happen? Maybe they actually want to get in school or out of school suspension anyway. They think it is funny.

If there were some more serious consequences, then maybe kids would behave. But they are not afraid of the punishment, or the punishment has become a reward for them.

They like to be a rebel and get into trouble, some of them, I think. Some kids may actually have a problem with not talking or being hyper. Kids today live in a world we did not grow up in. They are constantly connected, and feel the need to connect with others, with their phone or online or just talking in class.

I think in the future going to school may be a privelege and not a right. I mean everyone is entitled to a free education. But what if something happens and the state can simply not afford this? What if people had to pay to go to school?

Our currency is getting to be worth less and less. There are many schools that are joining up with other schools, especially in small towns. I know many schools are just barely making it. They have to cut pay or they force older staff to retire so they can hire younger staff at reduced pay.

But even so, every year it gets worse and worse.

I feel in the future everyone is going to have to pay something to send their kid to school. I don't see how there can be a free education for much longer. People simply will not choose to be teachers because of the behavior of students getting worse, and the pay not getting any better.

The whole education system needs to be changed some way.

I remember going to school in fear of getting a paddling. I got a paddling in the seventh grade. The paddling itself did not hurt that bad, but it was SO embarrassing! Now you simply can not paddle a child at all. For some kids it didn't work. If the worst they got was a paddling, they didn't care. They didn't care if you sent them to detention or suspended them or whatever. Some kids you just can't seem to punish because they just don't seem to care what you do to them.

For me, I dreaded getting paddled because the other kids would laugh at me. That was enough to make me want to behave. The paddlings never hurt me physically. It was enough to be embarrassed though.

Maybe if parents had to pay to send their kids to school, then they'd start caring more about how their kid behaved.

More serious punishments will only exacerbate the problem.

Does the Death Penalty stop murderers from murdering? Nope.

Do incredibly stiff laws against DUI stop drunks from driving? Nope.

Reactionary policies and punishments after the fact DO NOT and NEVER WILL fix a problem.

You must locate the problem at it's source. When you locate the source of the problem, you must remedy that by filling the gap with something practical and positive.

Our society must be blind, brainwashed, and ignorant all at the same time to ignore such obvious realities.

I didn't make this up or come up with this myself. This is merely a realization of the mechanics of cause and effect that anyone with an open mind could ponder...

Originally posted by muzzleflash
There are no laws that say being individualistic, defiant, opinionated, or a jerk is illegal.
And even if those laws were passed, they would be illegitimate and absurd.

There is nothing wrong with being individualistic, defiant, or opinionated. There is something wrong with breaking the rules without punishment. If there were no rules there would be nothing to stop the kids from doing whatever they like. Whether you like it or not kids are not adults and one of the luxuries of being a parent/adult is that the kids have to listen to you. I mean if we do nothing to teach obedience to the children they might as well grow up on there own. Maybe you should look into reading Lord of the Flies. Those kids did great on there own with no supervision.

And yet it's totally ok to IGNORE the fact they are fed verified LIES daily?
It's totally ok they are treated like cattle and fed false information as if it's medicine?

Huh? Where did you go to school? I mean if it weren't for my education I would not be half as smart as I am now. Now I do agree that there is a lot of disinformation being taught and censorship, but all lies? hardly.

It's not the kids fault. That's the LIE.
This is the ADULTS fault in society.
The ADULTS FAILED, therefore the Kids won't listen to the hypocrisy anymore.

Cause = Effect.

Well this we actually agree on as I said basically the same thing in my first post.

Now back to the Anarchy statement I think this is sufficient to prove that you are definitely pro-anarchy which again goes back to my previous comment to you. Anyway I am curious where you went to school and what your age range is. No obligation to answer that obviously, but I certainly don't feel like school or the "system" failed me. I feel that most people that didn't make it through school failed on there own. I for one did not finish school. I dropped out and joined the Army. I over the years have come to realize that the system didn't fail me i failed myself. So again take my words as you will as they are my opinion and nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with breaking an unjust or arbitrary rule.

There is something wrong with following an unjust or arbitrary rule.

Breaking just and virtuous laws is unacceptable.

Punishing kids only makes them worse. It makes them think "Well I have nothing to lose now! I might as well up the ante and show them!".

Educating kids of the error of such ways is clearly the solution. Why do you call it an "Institution of Education" when you fail to educate children of the most basic and simple principals of law and justice?

Punishing them merely admits you have no intellectual solution or practical method of problem solving. It is a reactionary measure based purely on vengeance. It makes enemies for life. Like I said they will up the ante in a defiant spirit of individualism and only increase their problem making potentials and increase the headaches in those dealing with them.

Through diplomacy and logic we can make allies of them instead. Finding common ground while working together to redress the grievances that trouble us all.

I have followed ATS for a few years now but I have never before felt compelled to create an account and respond to a thread - until this one. I am also a middle/high school teacher and in NSW, Australia, where I teach, year 7 is the first year of High School. I have to say I have never, in my 14 years of teaching, experienced a year 7 group like the ones we have just had. Their behaviour and attitude is so bad that even the older students at the school comment on it, and teachers are frequently coming back to the staffroom saying "must've been something in the water that year!." They are absolutely fearless and defiant. They do not seem to respond to behaviour management strategies. They seem to think authority of any kind is a joke, and are not afraid of the consequences of their behaviour.. Now, I am not a total fascist and I encourage students to offer their opinions, question, critically analyse and engage in respectful debate. I do not see myself as the be all and end all of knowledge and authority - education is a two-way deal. I have had experience with behaviour-disordered young people in the past, but I have to admit that there have been occasions in the past year where I have felt out of my depth with this group of kids.

One other thing to mention here that hasn't been touched on yet is the two main types of children...

1/ Malleable Child.... these are the kids who follow home rules, rarely argue with their parents, and who can understand they will get what they want from being helpful, respectful and participate as a member of the family. Parents say these are the kids who are wonderful to raise.

2/ Ruthless Child.... these kids won't follow home rules, they constantly argue with parents, are solely focused on what they WANT and when they want it with no concern about who they may have to walk over to get it. They perceive themselves as having adult rights and so push the boundary to insure they get it. While they still love their parents, they do not care so much what effect their constant barrage of pester-power, rule breaking and self-centredness has on their parents.

These two definitions are my own, something I came up with as a single parent raising a daughter and observing other kids/family interactions. And yes... my girl belongs to the latter group.. can't you see my stress lines and fast greying hair

I just want to point this out if someone already hasn't.
If i ever get ISS, i would always do something to force the school to give me OSS. (Sitting in school for 8 hours with only a lunch break is complete BS - i felt like a slave, but it's okay since i desirved it)

Originally posted by aero56
Just yesterday, two young ladies thought it cute to do cartwheels down the hallway. A teacher gave a verbal warning. Both girls looked directly at the teacher, and did another cartwheel. This was captured on video. The girls were "written up". This behavior took place during a "passing period" which means that the entire grade was in the hallway, making this behavior very dangerous. When written up, the girls thought it was "stupid" and were also laughing about it, stating "are you serious?" This is just an example of the oppositional defiance that we see everyday. There have been incidents where students have punched teachers. Those students were expelled.

Instead of warning them - how do you think something like
"Hey you two, cartwheeling is fun and all, but this is school. Try to be respectful."
I HIGHLY DOUBT that this is how it went out.
1/15 teachers ever are "cool" enough or respectful enough to go eye to eye with students.
And generally it's the Male History teachers (Idk but these are always the most considerate)
This teacher was probably a math teacher =\

Welcome to the "Me Generation". I've worked in private industry for 10 years and have been teaching now for 19 years. The attitude of students really concern me. Students in the classroom have no respect for their teachers or others in authority. They are extremely lazy and they have an "I don't care attitude". When half the class doesn't turn in their assignments, there's a major problem with responsibility. With all the fun motivating techniques I use in my classroom, there are still a handful of students that just don't want to participate! Simply put..."You can't get water from a stone."

Federal government and state officials want to point the blame on teachers, but that's an easy way of shifting blame away from the student and parent. When you have a class enrollment of 150 students and you only get on average 12 parents during parent teacher conferences, there's a problem. Parents are simply not taking an interest in their childs education. Teachers in my state are required to take professional development classes every 5 years to learn new ways of teaching. Some techniques are old techniques just packaged in a new way. Others are great, but if you don't have a student that is willing to learn, there really isn't much you can do to turn his attitude around. When I was in school, we had the "paddle." That was always in the back of our minds knowing that if we were disrespectful or created disruptions in class, we would end up having a sore butt for the rest of the day. Today kids have no consequences. Students don't show-up for detentions. They view out of school suspensions as vacations. A reprimand from a teacher is no longer embarrassing and students are fully aware of social promotion. So it really comes down to the kids knowing how to get around the system, and they take full advantage of it. Too many rights have been given to kids, and parents are afraid to discipline their kids for fear of being arrested for child abuse.

There's nothing like being called into an office and your administrator says your failing too many kids. These failing kids have only completed half, or less than half of the assignments that they were assigned!! They have failing test scores and chances are, their school attendance is extremely poor. How do you justify passing a student that just wants to sit like a "potted plant" all day and socialize? I get students in high school that can't even read a ruler, add and subtract fractions or divide. This is 5th grade math!! That's social promotion at its finest.

Uh...no that's not entirely it. You are being simplistic. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I can teach and I also know that I can control a class. I wouldn't be a teacher if I didn't love my job. This past year, I have seen so many excellent teachers who care about their students, offer exciting and interesting lessons, and who are skilled at behaviour management throw their hands up in frustration and disbelief at the extent of the bad behaviour of these kids who do not seem to want to learn, do not learn from their mistakes and CANNOT SEEM TO RELATE TO OTHERS AS ONE HUMAN BEING TO ANOTHER.

public schools are a great thing, problem is who we let in them. Its probably a lot harder teaching in large classes, in my middle school the teachers where lucky if all the student knew english