Prayer Currently Deemed Illegal in BOE Meetings

OMGGGG I am Christian and I'm not allowedd to praayy OH NOES!!! Well think of this as your payback for all the innocent people you slaughtered for not believing in your fake fcuking god all those years ago.

Re Saltheart Foamfollower

I'm game also, and my basis will be what I ended my last post with:

"And if you think, that this is a too superficial epistemological request, I'm game for deeper evaluations of what's 'evidence' and how it can be communicated."

I'm rather tired of clichées, doctrines etc which circle-argumentate, without even the smallest interest in digging deeper into a basis beyond such nonsense.

So to avoid any off-topic problems the forum 'philosophy and metaphysics' would probably be the most suitable.
But be prepared for some really elaborate, circumstantial and most likely boring posts from me. Debating on the essense of knowledge etc can't be done in 2-10 line posts.

when I was in school, I liked how they couldn't teach us religion, but if they weren't allowed to teach us math, I would be happy about that too (even though I like math), I just didn't want them to teach at all (and yet I am someone who still loves to learn and be educated). However, now that I am older, I can see how removing religion from schools is complete insanity since a comparative religions class could be non-biased and educational, especially in this day and age when we have religious wars going on. I think the plan is like this: christian people want school children to be taught that God created the world in seven days (or six counting the seventh as a rest day, makes no sense for a perfect creator to need a rest, but I digress), and so the schools say "no way, not here," and so now nothing the least bit spiritual can be taught. I'm surprised they even taught us transcendentalism since it is on the spiritual side of things, but I'm sure they removed that by now.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


I usually stay away from the spiritual threads because of the inherent rancor held towards those that have faith here at ATS.

I would not mind a debate though that is held in good form. Actually it would be fun and invigorating.

I will think about it and get back to you. Thanks for the offer.

If you did not know it, I am one that usually stays away from the religious debates or arguments here at ATS. I tried one thread about a year and a half ago, and saw what the ATS community does to people that have faith. ATS actually has more class in regards to people that talk about interdictions with the purple spaghetti monster than you do with those that have faith in Jesus.

Anyway, what would you like to debate? The fact that government hates religion, that organized religion sucks or that spirituality should never be separated from man? Of course I was being sarcastic, what exactly would you like to debate?

reply to post by filosophia


Hey filosophia, think about it, Einstein said that time is RELATIVE. 6 days could be 1 billion years if you are on the edge of a blackhole, at least that is what the mathematicians tell you.

It is all relative, if you have faith.

Anyway, what I find funny about those that have open minds, why are they not open about religion? OR in actuality, spirituality, because religion is organized spirituality, and I have never liked that.

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower

The fact that government hates religion, that organized religion sucks or that spirituality should never be separated from man? Of course I was being sarcastic, what exactly would you like to debate?

I realise that, the constitution was designed so that citizens had the freedom to practice religion but so that the goverment could be run free from religion, This allows for multiculturism and people of different faiths to integrate into society. Even countries such as Sweden with a high percentage of Atheists still allows freedom of religion, and freedom FROM religion.

I'll debate you on anything Theistic related, whether religion is a good thing for a stable society, whether religion is irrational, Whether religion is "TRUTH" or false hope. Anything, you name the debate, i'll join in and share my views. U2U me if you want to start a discourse. Peace

Re Filosophia

You wrote:

["However, now that I am older, I can see how removing religion from schools is complete insanity since a comparative religions class could be non-biased and educational, especially in this day and age when we have religious wars going on."]

No matter where you as an individual 'come from' or where you intend to 'go to', this quote from you as it stands, is a simple and elegant answer, which shouldn't offend anyone. It's the essense of liberal options for choice.

Only those craving monopolies of truth will object. Time will show if anyone does.

If you feel the need to pray so much then pray before the meeting .. in the privacy of your home or car ... and you can always pray silently during the meeting. There is no need to demand that others join in with your prayer, especially since that's NOT the reason for the meeting.

reply to post by suigeneris


I believe this is absolutely ridiculous. I wish people would wake up and realize that our government is really out of control. And now i hear that they want to extend portions of the patriot act. I should be allowed to pray no matter where I am, not to mention a government funded institution.

And more government intrusion and power doesn't make me feel safer....it makes me feel more uncomfortable

One question I feel compelled to ask is this.

Why the hell would you pray in a Board of Education meeting? Shouldn't everyone be focused on the issues of education and improvements instead of talking to themselves about non-related matter?

Re Awake_and_aware

You wrote:

["Even countries such as Sweden with a high percentage of Atheists still allows freedom of religion, and freedom FROM religion."]

Being quite familiar with swedish culture I can add, that 'bashing' of christians there is considerably milder than many other places. There's simply no need, as the confrontational polarization at a public level is against the (admittedly sometimes excessive) general swedish attitude on 'personal space'. A recent cultural paradigm shift originating from aversion to a former strict class society.

Correspondingly one of the most usual parallels to atheism etc, humanism, isn't very big in an organized form and not very 'noisy'.

On more general lines: There's a tendency on debate forums to present messages with short and compressed 'sayings' (could be something with interest or not in depth and attentionspan). So your version of 'freedom of religion and freedom from religion' is quite appealing. Freedom to, freedom from.

Well the ACLU is a godless communist organization lit on fire by hell. When they started, they consulted with the Soviets on how best to destroy and undermine America. Removing all expressions of faith was a key objective. They have been wildly successful in promoting their religion, scientific atheism.

My suggestion is to hold fast to your first amendment rights and keep praying unceasingly as the Bible commands us. Let them try to convict you by a jury of your peers. Get a hold of the Rutherford foundation or the Center for Law and religous freedom to help you with your legal needs. Don't cave in to these devils. They have already lost, their doom is coming soon, since the Lords return is not far off.

reply to post by suigeneris


A felony? That's just crazy. While I don't think the Board of Education should say prayers during their meetings I definitely don't think it should be illegal for them to do so if they want.

There's no way it should be a crime. I'm all in favor of the separation of Church and State but they're stepping way WAY over the line here.

Please tell me the problem atheists have with God?

How about stuff like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9ceca51bbb13.jpg[/atsimg]

or this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/350fdf76a1ed.jpg[/atsimg]

How about children who's parents refuse medical care because they think they're going to heal their child through prayer? What about Creationists trying to push religion into science class? What about the verses in the Bible and other holy books that condone violence, slavery, and genocide. I mean the God of the Bible not only commands genocide HE ENGAGES IN IT ACTIVELY.

You don't think belief in these blood-thirsty primitive God(s) should be opposed?

reply to post by bogomil


I actually liked that comment. A lot.

Just remember though, the basis of my rancor is not that there is a separation of church and state, but that the state permeates everything. Which inherently leads to.......................

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

A felony? That's just crazy. While I don't think the Board of Education should say prayers during their meetings I definitely don't think it should be illegal for them to do so if they want.

Read the article. There is no suggestion that it is a crime, felony or no. Just some person whinging that about an apparent TPO while the suit is heard. There is no date provided, it could be 10 years old. There is nothing about what School Board is under scrutiny, it could be anywhere (in Ohio or Tennessee maybe). There is no indication about what newspaper the article is in, it could be religo-facist fishwrap throwaway that is lying just to fill its page.

There is just nothing there to substantiate anything, and it ain't a felony offense to pray anywhere in the US. It just isn't.

The whole thing is a beat up from start to finish.

Re Seven Thunders

The suggestions you gave on legal advice could possibly be of use to some ignorant fundie. Not completely irrelevant, but on the other hand probably only an excuse to rant.

But for the rest of your post......

Soapbox oration, which only emphasizes the distance between common rational thinking and your extremism. What do you hope to acchieve with this?

Ridicule, so you can become a martyr?

Re Saltheart Foamfollower

You wrote

["Just remember though, the basis of my rancor is not that there is a separation of church and state, but that the state permeates everything. Which inherently leads to......................."]

As you may have noticed and remember, my own rantings are usually from the perspective of liberal society, which I rather insistently defend against all elitism.

And I DO live in a liberal model nation (at least compared to most of the planet), where the promises of liberalism have been reasonably well kept. Ofcourse such a big compromise as national liberal democratic society requires some individual sacrifices, but I can live with that. The main problem here is, that the compromise-attitude has developed into a benevolent bureaucracy (administrators are helpful and friendly etc), where details are regulated with nitpicking pedantry. We are drowning in adminstration, which seems to run on Parkinson's law mechanisms.

So in this respect I can sympathize with attitudes of less authority interference. But that's not quite the same, as when liberal society puts a limit to elitist interests (sometimes privilege demands) because that part concerns the basic liberal 'system' per se.

The basis of this thread, praying/non-praying at authority-based meetings, is from the pro-praying side nothing more than a propaganda maneuver, raising a storm in a glass of water. Anyone can see, that practical compromise solutions are easy and at hand, so the principle-fight is in this context quite out of proportion. In my opinion only the rather ridiculous 'whining' faction making meaningless noise. Had the issue been churchbells chiming very loudly around the clock or muslim prayer-callers making noise-pollution early in the morning (or whenever they do it) in domestic areas, that would have been something to argue about.

Not insistence on demonstrating personal holiness in public, implicating others in it, when there are reasonable alternative options.

Its a difficult thing to understand the new law. Separation of church and state is a good law. We wouldnt want satan worshippers [praying to the devil before meetings would we?? Or any other wing-nut cults? Christians should realize this but they dont. Christians are at the mercy of the government school they place their children. Freedom of religion means they can find a christian school, or home school to place their child and join the members of their board and pray.
I believe making it a felenoy charge is crazy. The people who ratified this law showld be voted out or replaced before they go totaly insane.

reply to post by rnaa



What a rip off of a thread than

I suppose I should have read the entire article before posting. It's an idea that sounds crazy and one that no legislature would ever be likely to approve so I guess it should have raised a red flag of skepticism.

Originally posted by suigeneris
I cannot pray at my Board of Education meeting without being arrested.
A FELONY! FELONY!! For PRAYING!

Sure you can pray. What is to stop you from praying silently to yourself? That is the only way you've ever prayed by the way (to yourself).

Originally posted by suigeneris
Even atheists should see the pure governmental control of our speech in this.

I wouldn't (Separation of church and State), but let me ask you; If a religionist of any ilk has the right to pray in a public forum hosted by the government then do I as an atheist have the right in the same meeting to refer to such persons as psychotic (normal people do not carry their imaginary friend(s) into adulthood) and to their concerns as baseless fantasy? Well without being shot by a christian with a Glock and a 30 round clip that is?

Originally posted by suigeneris
This is the persecution of Christians the Bible speaks of.

You christians and your persecution complex! What if it were a jew, muslim or hindu, etc. who wanted to pray? If it is illegal for you then is it not also illegal for them as well? Of course! No antichristian persecution there. Honestly christians are their own worst enemies. Grow up okay?