Prayer Currently Deemed Illegal in BOE Meetings

Nope.

It didn't help. But thank you for trying.

I read what I could. And I was not trying to be the op, just answer any questions you or others may have.

Not to be condescending back or anything but my original post on this thread did say:

"I'm here.

I'll answer any question you have, off topic or not."


Did you not read that post?

reply to post by lnr42


Here is one link and I will find more.
www.suite101.com...

www.nje3.org...


www.washingtonpost.com...

Originally posted by mrvdreamknight
Nope.

It didn't help. But thank you for trying.

Why did it not help? Please explain what is keeping you from reading it now as this might truly enlighten me to so many other issues.

I read what I could. And I was not trying to be the op, just answer any questions you or others may have.

I gave you the entire thing. What parts can you still not read?

Not to be condescending back or anything but my original post on this thread did say:

"I'm here.

I'll answer any question you have, off topic or not."


Did you not read that post?

I sure did and you were trying to asnwer the questions that I put to the OP. If that was not the job you wanted, you should not have come running up to volunteer to do it.

Now, other than give you complete access to the entire images (as I did in two different formats), how can I help you read the entire article?

reply to post by mamabeth


Thanks for the links, its good to see multi-culturalism has its place.

However none of these articles emphatically state that christian prayer has been banned and replaced with muslim prayer, just that provisions are made for students who are expected by their religion to pray at certain times.

Don't get me wrong, I have similair disdain/apathy for all forms of organised religion. Spirituality should come from within, not from a book or a self proclaimed man of god. But I do still hold that people should be allowed to practice what they wish so long as it does not intrude on or affect others.

Which brings us back to the OP. If I understand correctly praying has not been banned at any meetings as this would be impossible. Merely the uptil now commonly held practice of leading a mass prayer has been dropped.

In all honesty this is probably as much to do with the growing lack of interest in christianity as anything else.

Pray silently. Problem solved.

reply to post by lnr42


I only read part of your post...
I don't know what country you are from.
In the U.S., we have separation of church
and state.We also have a nasty group
called the ACLU which loves filing law suits
against religion in public places.
I will look for the links against christian prayer.

reply to post by mamabeth

I only read part of your post...

I love it when people start their posts off like this.

Its ok, dont bother looking for the links.

reply to post by lnr42


I have to admit that I may be wrong...
www.allaboutpopularissues.org...
Came as a surprise to me since I remember 1962.

Originally posted by suigeneris
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Why would an atheist, who believes in nothing, but dirt and rot after we are dead, care if I pray to my invisible, unreal, God? Please tell me the problem atheists have with God? Why would you tell your side of the story, yet never let anyone else tell their side?

Are you people afraid of the invisible and non-existant? What is the problem?

Why can't we pray if we want to? Why do you think you can harp on the non-existence of God, yet we are going to be cahrged with a felony for praying to the God we know is there for us?

Are you people only going to listen if you talk to yourself and it becomes a felony? Do you think that is a far stretch? I don't.

the "problem" with god, as you put it, is NOT the problem....it is the people that insist that i and everyone else listen to it. think about it for a moment...would you want a satanist prayer read out loud in the open of a school meeting?? well, neither would i, nor do i want a islamic prayer read out loud, and thus i don't want a christian prayer read out loud.
and come on...asking "why can't we pray if we want to" is not even in the discussion nor is it even a valid arguement. you have hours and hours in your day to pray yourself silly, for all i care. this is the problem i have with ALL religions...somehow if i do not want to listen or participate in mythical incantations, coupled with my right to be free FROM it, is somehow denying YOUR rights.
people are being murdered in other countries for simply speaking out loud AGAINST a religion, and you are whineing about prayers not allowed in a school board meeting??? [SNIP]

MOD NOTE: Please read: ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics.

I don't want religion influencing the decision process of any institution that is not related to the church, from school to medical practices. Ethics is what determines laws and a lot of our ethical stances already come from religion and do not pertain at all from where they should; objective philosophical and scientific schools of thought.

So many claim they fear the idea of a religious state, such as is the case in so many middle eastern countries but America is exactly the same, it's just shrouded in hypocritical political B.S. This is evident when we consider things such as abortion and assisted suicide, the laws passed are directly influenced by religion. How is that any different from what they do in the countries you so loathe and fear?

Religion is a dictatorship, it tells you what to think and robs you of your ability to decide things for yourself. So keep religion where it belongs, at church.

reply to post by suigeneris


While i, as an agnostic, agree that making it a felony (and i would LOVE to see the law that does) is completely absurd, can't you quietly just pray to yourself? Why must there be a show of religious ritual at the BOE meeting? Shall we also have rituals for every other religion that might want it? Should Mulims be allowed to kneel east and before the meeting?

There is, of course, the separation of church and state, and since the BOE is a public (not private) institution, a state sanctioned prayer does not it in.

You pray with the heart, mind, and soul. You do not *need* for everyone to take a time out for this biased ritual.

But yeah, the felony part, and it as an arrestable offense, still makes me scratch my head, ESPECIALLY when we are supposed to have freedom of religion. Then again, if you were to pray to yourself, or even go out in the hallway and verbally pray to yourself, there would probably be no legal consequences and no one would care, unless some troublemaker intent on pushing the issue.

My perspective.

reply to post by Sinnthia


I'm sorry about these guys here. I don't know if they really aren't understanding you, or have never been learned in polite discussion.

I think what the OP is trying to get at is that whether you are atheist or theist, you should be able to pray at a BOE meeting. If one should pray though, they are to be arrested for violating a law. This is not seperation of church and state, but the persecution of anyone deciding to pray before a meeting.

I'm not aware as to whether they initiate each meeting with a prayer, which would depend whether they are asking everyone to participate or if they are making a personal prayer.

The difference would be that if they requested to say a prayer before the meeting, no big deal. It's not that they are requiring everyone to join or even asking. Basically, think of a prayer of this sort a statement rather than a meeting of christians.

Illegal seems a bit harsh but..... to be honest prayers have no place at a board of education meeting.

Sounds to me like some people weren't ready to listen to reason.
We asked nicely. Made appeals to your sense of decency and pragmatism.
Still won't listen? Fine, wasting people's time and resources in order to accommodate your disgusting self-righteousness is now a punishable crime.

More and more it seems we have to take this kindergartenesque approach in dealing with religious affairs. It's pretty humiliating.

ATTENTION!

This thread will remain civil and on-topic.

All future replies will be phrased in a non-confrontational manner, in compliance with Skeptic Overlord's thread ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics and the Terms & Conditions. Violations will be taken seriously.

I realize this is a heated and personal topic, but that does not make it exempt from the regulations.

TheRedneck
ATS Forum Moderator

reply to post by mrvdreamknight


This isn't about your personal decision, this is about someone leading the group in prayer prior to the meeting. The Chair of the group no less. And it's a group that is fully governmental. So this is the head of a public institution mandating he be allowed to use his position to impose prayer. I would no more want him to start explaining why religion is silly than I would want him to do that, it would be an abuse of his power either way.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by mrvdreamknight

 

This isn't about your personal decision, this is about someone leading the group in prayer prior to the meeting. The Chair of the group no less. And it's a group that is fully governmental. So this is the head of a public institution mandating he be allowed to use his position to impose prayer. I would no more want him to start explaining why religion is silly than I would want him to do that, it would be an abuse of his power either way.

A moment of or two for each person to pray or to contemplate before, during, or after a meeting is entirely up the group to decide or their leader if he has such authority.

It has nothing to do with my personal decision or yours - thank God.

reply to post by mrvdreamknight


Any good reason that any school board meeting time should be spent doing that? It could take hours to accomodate everyone's couple minutes of prayers. Why should 1 second at a school board meeting be spent praying? Should they set aside time to tell campfire stories and introduce imaginary friends as well? I personally think they should be discussing school board issues and school board issues only.

Originally posted by Xen0m0rpH
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

I'm sorry about these guys here. I don't know if they really aren't understanding you, or have never been learned in polite discussion.

Thanks. I understand that people get passionate about their religion and quite defensive when feeling attacked. I just thought I was being pretty non-attack like. Maybe not?

I think what the OP is trying to get at is that whether you are atheist or theist, you should be able to pray at a BOE meeting. If one should pray though, they are to be arrested for violating a law. This is not seperation of church and state, but the persecution of anyone deciding to pray before a meeting.

I get that but the article does not cite the actual law, say anything about felony arrest, and is cut off before the end. Maybe I missed something. I agreed that making it an arrestable offense was a bit much but to be honest, I think opening a school board meeting with a prayer is a bit much too so to me it would be a wash.

I'm not aware as to whether they initiate each meeting with a prayer, which would depend whether they are asking everyone to participate or if they are making a personal prayer.

I have an issue with this concept here. If I were the only atheist at the meeting, I would not want to speak up. Since it would be a school board meeting, it seems more appropriate to just leave religion out in your car and not put anyone in the position of having to choose between their personal faith and fear of persecution from the group. The OP seems pretty worried about persecution but if no one is bringing religion to school board meetings, it should never be a problem. I cannot fathom one good reason to do it in the first place.

The poster that proudly proclaimed they want to go pray just to anger people really makes me wonder about the motives behind pushing prayer in places where it probably has no place.

The difference would be that if they requested to say a prayer before the meeting, no big deal. It's not that they are requiring everyone to join or even asking. Basically, think of a prayer of this sort a statement rather than a meeting of christians.

That is pretty easy to say...if you are a Christian. How about they open with a Satanic prayer instead. Would you just consider that a statement and not a meeting of Satanists?

Thank you so very much for responding in a cordial manner. If any of my responses to you come across as less than polite, speak up. Sometimes attempts to be succinct translate to terse and I do appreciate your response.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
reply to post by mrvdreamknight

 

Any good reason that any school board meeting time should be spent doing that? It could take hours to accomodate everyone's couple minutes of prayers. Why should 1 second at a school board meeting be spent praying? Should they set aside time to tell campfire stories and introduce imaginary friends as well? I personally think they should be discussing school board issues and school board issues only.

Do you ever read my posts?

I answered this several times already.

1 second should not be spent on prayer at the meeting, nor should hours.

My suggestion would be one minute or two minutes or so for everyone there to either pray or contemplate on the upcoming meeting. Not one minute per each religion..lol

You obviosuly have no experience running meetings or you would surely know the benefits of extremely focused thought.