Prayer Currently Deemed Illegal in BOE Meetings

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Which prayers in particular do you feel are importand for a BOE meeting? Why do you feel it is persecution? Are you forced to go to BOE meetings? Is that the only chance you get to pray? What gods do you feel should be prayed to at BOE meetings?

Since the op chose to leave, I'll be glad to talk with you.

Your first question, "which prayers"?. My answer: any and all prayers and non-prayers.

Your second question, "Why do you feel it is persecution?". My answer: a felony for prayer or non-prayer, is persecution.

"Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group." - wiki

Your 3rd question, "Are you forced to go to BOE meetings?". My answer: No.

Your 4th question, "Is that the only chance you get to pray?" My answer: No.

Your 5th question, "What gods do you feel should be prayed to at BOE meetings?" You've already asked this question and I've already answered it.

I Pray this clears things up for you.

reply to post by suigeneris


I am almost certain you can pray when and where you like and you have misinterpreted this article to fit your love of religious persecution.

I am also just as certain that you would put a lot less store in anybodys religious rights if they were wanting to pray to some other deity. This is less about rights and more disgruntlement at society for not listening to your outlandish and outdated views on why we should all worship the invisible sky wizard.

Why some people are treating this as some call to arms, denouncing others who see things differently, is beyond me.

ETA: Oh, youve gone. Funny how the fundies always lose their cool in the face of questioning isnt it?

reply to post by suigeneris


Right now it is a felony to pray at a board meeting.
Soon,you won't be allowed to pray anywhere,unless
you point to mecca!Then you would be allowed to pray.

reply to post by mamabeth


Ridiculous and erroneous post.

You can pray at these meetings still, to whoever you want. The only problem here is that it should be a prayer between you and god...you know the way its meant to be.

What place does religion have at a meeting regarding education anyway? I think mixing the 2 has caused an awful lot of trouble up to now. If religion and education were kept seperate we would probably see less petty ignorant drivel like your mecca comment above.

Originally posted by lnr42
reply to post by suigeneris

 

I am almost certain you can pray when and where you like and you have misinterpreted this article to fit your love of religious persecution.

I am also just as certain that you would put a lot less store in anybodys religious rights if they were wanting to pray to some other deity. This is less about rights and more disgruntlement at society for not listening to your outlandish and outdated views on why we should all worship the invisible sky wizard.

Why some people are treating this as some call to arms, denouncing others who see things differently, is beyond me.

ETA: Oh, youve gone. Funny how the fundies always lose their cool in the face of questioning isnt it?

edit on 15-1-2011 by lnr42 because: (no reason given)

I'm here.

I'll answer any question you have, off topic or not.

reply to post by mrvdreamknight


Well thanks but it wasnt really me with the questions.

I will ask one thing though...Why is it important to lead group prayer at what should be a secular meeting?

reply to post by lnr42



School boards across this country are caving into
pressure from muslim groups to allow their children
to pray.I would assume that would include the parents
at any board meeting.
I know that you will say...when you assume...
Only christians can't pray in schools and now board meetings.
We are a Godless society and we will suffer for it in the future!

reply to post by mamabeth


Utter utter rubbish.

Can you please supply proof that christian prayer has been banned at schools and replaced by Muslim prayer?

Why are christians so frightened of people turning away from their god? Surely more room in heaven for the rest of you?

Originally posted by mrvdreamknight
Since the op chose to leave, I'll be glad to talk with you.

I really hope you can be a little nicer than the last two Christians that engaged me in this thread. It makes me wonder about the god they follow that leaves people so angry and hateful.

Your first question, "which prayers"?. My answer: any and all prayers and non-prayers.

So if there were 30 different people with 30 different prayers to recite, BOE meeting time should be spent doing that? Why?

Your second question, "Why do you feel it is persecution?". My answer: a felony for prayer or non-prayer, is persecution.

That is pretty selective reading. That is like me saying I am being persecuted for loving scented candles because it is against the law for me to light them in the middle of the nearest Chemical plant. There is no felony for praying. Time and place, my friend.

"Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group." - wiki

Again, you are leaving out context here.

Your 3rd question, "Are you forced to go to BOE meetings?". My answer: No.

Your 4th question, "Is that the only chance you get to pray?" My answer: No.

So there you have it. You can pray all you like without fear of persecution. Going to BOE meetings is a choice you do not have to make and since you can pray before and after the meeting, you are creating a situation in which to be persecuted for. That is akin to going to a movie theater and firing up a grill and cooking some stir fry. You have the right to cook stir fry, you just cannot do it in the middle of a movie theater. You can pray all you like, just not at a school board meeting. What is the problem? Pray before or don't go.

Your 5th question, "What gods do you feel should be prayed to at BOE meetings?" You've already asked this question and I've already answered it.

No, I have not actually asked that. I asked which prayers. This is actually quite a different question.

I Pray this clears things up for you.

Not really but I appreciate the effort. Now, please take my questions as they are intended - as questions. If you feel you are being attacked, please let me know.

Originally posted by lnr42
reply to post by mrvdreamknight

 

Well thanks but it wasnt really me with the questions.

I will ask one thing though...Why is it important to lead group prayer at what should be a secular meeting?

I do not agree that there really is such a thing as a secular meeting as you are implying.

But I'll save that discussin for another time.

Here's my answer: It is not important to lead a prayer at any meeting.

However, everyone and anyone should have say a second or more to pray or not pray, fair enough?

For fairness sake, I don't think a minute or two would be out of the question either.

For those who want to pray, they can pray to Whatever God they like. And for those who have non-belief beliefs, they can meditate on nothingness or the upcoming meeting or whatever atheists do.

Fair enough?

reply to post by mrvdreamknight


Correct me if I am wrong but we seem to be in agreement then. The original article is rather hard to read due to its format but I dont believe 'quiet contemplation' of the sort you mention has been banned. Indeed how would this be enforced?

If truth be told, and we will have to agree to disagree here, ALL public meetings should be secular. There is no place for forcing views on another whether christian, muslim or 'other'. This should be between you and your god(s).

Originally posted by Sinnthia

Originally posted by mrvdreamknight
Since the op chose to leave, I'll be glad to talk with you.

I really hope you can be a little nicer than the last two Christians that engaged me in this thread. It makes me wonder about the god they follow that leaves people so angry and hateful.

Your first question, "which prayers"?. My answer: any and all prayers and non-prayers.

So if there were 30 different people with 30 different prayers to recite, BOE meeting time should be spent doing that? Why?

Your second question, "Why do you feel it is persecution?". My answer: a felony for prayer or non-prayer, is persecution.

That is pretty selective reading. That is like me saying I am being persecuted for loving scented candles because it is against the law for me to light them in the middle of the nearest Chemical plant. There is no felony for praying. Time and place, my friend.

"Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group." - wiki

Again, you are leaving out context here.

Your 3rd question, "Are you forced to go to BOE meetings?". My answer: No.

Your 4th question, "Is that the only chance you get to pray?" My answer: No.

So there you have it. You can pray all you like without fear of persecution. Going to BOE meetings is a choice you do not have to make and since you can pray before and after the meeting, you are creating a situation in which to be persecuted for. That is akin to going to a movie theater and firing up a grill and cooking some stir fry. You have the right to cook stir fry, you just cannot do it in the middle of a movie theater. You can pray all you like, just not at a school board meeting. What is the problem? Pray before or don't go.

Your 5th question, "What gods do you feel should be prayed to at BOE meetings?" You've already asked this question and I've already answered it.

No, I have not actually asked that. I asked which prayers. This is actually quite a different question.

I Pray this clears things up for you.

Not really but I appreciate the effort. Now, please take my questions as they are intended - as questions. If you feel you are being attacked, please let me know.

Wow.

Your reply made me laugh a lot, thank you.

You seem really confused.

I will be more than glad to help you out.

So, yes, I will try my hardest to be nicer to you.

Your first question - two questions really: "So if there were 30 different people with 30 different prayers to recite, BOE meeting time should be spent doing that? Why?"

Yes. Even if there 100 different people with 100 different religions or non-religions religions (just for atheists), there should be time for them to recite their prayers/nonprayers. But not in the way you are thinking. I mean for a moment or two where each person to themselves or in thought only prayers to their God/meditates.

Now for the second part of your question, "why?" - Well, that's easy enough, because approximately 80% of the world is a believer in some sort of God and the other 20% have a non-belief belief. So if my numbers are close to accurate that means 100% of the people attending the meeting have some sort of faith/nonfaith. So my question to you would be - why not? Why not have a minute or two for all100% of the people there to take a moment and focus on the meeting at hand?

Fair enough?


Your second reply does not seem to make sense. So let me ask for some clarification. I thought this thread was about, oh I don't know, the title of the thread: "Prayer Currently Deemed Illegal in BOE Meetings."
Am I wrong in thinking that? So if there is no crime for praying than this thread is useless. But if there is, than I stand by my original reply. Your analogy of the chemical plant candle thingy is not accurate in either case.

Your next response shows your true intentions:

"So there you have it. You can pray all you like without fear of persecution. Going to BOE meetings is a choice you do not have to make and since you can pray before and after the meeting, you are creating a situation in which to be persecuted for. That is akin to going to a movie theater and firing up a grill and cooking some stir fry. You have the right to cook stir fry, you just cannot do it in the middle of a movie theater. You can pray all you like, just not at a school board meeting. What is the problem? Pray before or don't go."

Wow...praying = yelling fire? Wow. You are really confused. You or I can not yell fire in a theater because it "causes a panic" - U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Schenck v. U.S. (1919).

Is there a Supreme Court ruling that prayer/nonprayer causes a panic?

If so, please let us all know what case.

Because until the law of the land changes, I believe anyone can attend a BOE meeting and pray/not pray any time they agree too...before-during-after.

Agreed then?

Oh and you really should be less attacking in your posts. You sound just like the people you were talking about, when you wrote "pray before or don't go." Maybe you are projecting.

Originally posted by Sinnthia
Which prayers in particular do you feel are importand for a BOE meeting? Why do you feel it is persecution? Are you forced to go to BOE meetings? Is that the only chance you get to pray? What gods do you feel should be prayed to at BOE meetings?

I second that statement... What part of board of education says church meeting.

Originally posted by lnr42
reply to post by mrvdreamknight

 

Correct me if I am wrong but we seem to be in agreement then. The original article is rather hard to read due to its format but I dont believe 'quiet contemplation' of the sort you mention has been banned. Indeed how would this be enforced?

If truth be told, and we will have to agree to disagree here, ALL public meetings should be secular. There is no place for forcing views on another whether christian, muslim or 'other'. This should be between you and your god(s).

edit on 15-1-2011 by lnr42 because: ooops

I think your right in two cases but not one.

You're right, I can't really read the original article, and I think you can have a moment before the meeting.

But I do believe there is a place for faith/nonfaith moments if that' what the group agrees to.

BTW - How is taking a moment to pray to yourself or think to yourself is forcing your views on anyone?

reply to post by mrvdreamknight

BTW - How is taking a moment to pray to yourself or think to yourself is forcing your views on anyone?

It isnt, but as you yourself stated, that is not what this thread is about.

I thought this thread was about, oh I don't know, the title of the thread: "Prayer Currently Deemed Illegal in BOE Meetings."

That is not taking a moment, that is making prayer illegal...which it isnt.

Originally posted by lnr42
reply to post by mrvdreamknight

 

BTW - How is taking a moment to pray to yourself or think to yourself is forcing your views on anyone?

It isnt, but as you yourself stated, that is not what this thread is about.

I thought this thread was about, oh I don't know, the title of the thread: "Prayer Currently Deemed Illegal in BOE Meetings."

That is not taking a moment, that is making prayer illegal...which it isnt.

I'm lost.

Is prayer illegal at BOE or isn't it?

reply to post by mrvdreamknight


Yeah sorry, I was less than clear wasnt I? Freshly armed with more coffee....

I think the OP and posted article is skewed and any such law would be impossible to enforce anyway.

Quiet prayer to oneself is fine. Organised praise in church is fine, where all participants are there expressly for that purpose. Outside church many people are not going to share your belief system and some may see it as an intrusion.

You have your whole life to pray, why do you need to make a public spectacle of it whenever possible?

Originally posted by mrvdreamknight
Wow.

Your reply made me laugh a lot, thank you.

You seem really confused.

Hmmm. That seems rather judgementaly and condescending. Off to a great start.

I will be more than glad to help you out.

So, yes, I will try my hardest to be nicer to you.

Starting now?

Your first question - two questions really: "So if there were 30 different people with 30 different prayers to recite, BOE meeting time should be spent doing that? Why?"

Yes. Even if there 100 different people with 100 different religions or non-religions religions (just for atheists), there should be time for them to recite their prayers/nonprayers. But not in the way you are thinking. I mean for a moment or two where each person to themselves or in thought only prayers to their God/meditates.

OK, what does that have to do with this thread? There is nothing banning personal quiet contemplation. I have no problem with people taking a moment to thin about their favorite desert if they want to. That is quite different from the premise of this thread as well as the other person who apparently hopes to anger people with his prayers.

Now for the second part of your question, "why?" - Well, that's easy enough, because approximately 80% of the world is a believer in some sort of God and the other 20% have a non-belief belief. So if my numbers are close to accurate that means 100% of the people attending the meeting have some sort of faith/nonfaith. So my question to you would be - why not? Why not have a minute or two for all100% of the people there to take a moment and focus on the meeting at hand?

The meeting has nothing to do with anyone's god or religion. You can apply that to any gathering, it just not make praying at any gathering justified. Should we have a moment of prayer anytime more than 5 people end up in a room together because 4 of them probably believe in a god?

It is a school meeting. Don't religious types have personal time and churches?

Fair enough?

I am not really sure. I do not care if people want to take a moment to think to themselves about whatever they want. I also do not understand why they cannot just do that before they leave the house. Personally, praying before you get in a car makes more sense then praying before a school board meeting does.

Your second reply does not seem to make sense. So let me ask for some clarification. I thought this thread was about, oh I don't know, the title of the thread: "Prayer Currently Deemed Illegal in BOE Meetings."
Am I wrong in thinking that? So if there is no crime for praying than this thread is useless. But if there is, than I stand by my original reply. Your analogy of the chemical plant candle thingy is not accurate in either case.

My analogy is perfectly correct because you confusion and questions belong with the OP. Why are both of you asking me to explain what this thread is about?

There is nothing about banning a moment of quiet contemplation. That is not mentioned in the article or by the OP who posted it. That argument is moot.

Your next response shows your true intentions:

Back to judging me.

"So there you have it. You can pray all you like without fear of persecution. Going to BOE meetings is a choice you do not have to make and since you can pray before and after the meeting, you are creating a situation in which to be persecuted for. That is akin to going to a movie theater and firing up a grill and cooking some stir fry. You have the right to cook stir fry, you just cannot do it in the middle of a movie theater. You can pray all you like, just not at a school board meeting. What is the problem? Pray before or don't go."

Wow...praying = yelling fire? Wow. You are really confused. You or I can not yell fire in a theater because it "causes a panic" - U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Schenck v. U.S. (1919).

What? I did not say anything about yelling fire. You apparently did not even read that paragraph at all. That is not even close. I would correct you but it is still sitting there in its original form. Please read it again and try to reply to the scenario I presented, not the one you made up to swat down.

What is your intention in purposely misconstruing what I actually said to such a degree?

Is there a Supreme Court ruling that prayer/nonprayer causes a panic?

If so, please let us all know what case.

Again, go read what I actually said as the supreme court has nothing to do with it. Neither does yelling fire. Where did you even get that? Quote me, it helps. Well usually.

Because until the law of the land changes, I believe anyone can attend a BOE meeting and pray/not pray any time they agree too...before-during-after.

I am not sure you know what you are arguing anymore. You were too worried about judging my "intentions" to read the OP or my post accurately. Sorry but I gotta call it like I see it.

Agreed then?

On what? You quoted me and then replied to something completely different than what I said.

Oh and you really should be less attacking in your posts. You sound just like the people you were talking about, when you wrote "pray before or don't go." Maybe you are projecting.

How is that an attack? I was pretty damn nice up until all 3 "Christians" in this thread showed themselves to be rude, judgemental, delusional trolls. Now that is an attack. Telling someone to either pray or do not attend secular meetings is not an attack. It is a suggestion with nothing insulting about it.

Get back to me when you actually read my post and can reply to what I actually said.

Originally posted by mrvdreamknight
You're right, I can't really read the original article, and I think you can have a moment before the meeting.

I hope this helps.







files.abovetopsecret.com...
files.abovetopsecret.com...

I really hate to sound condescending but I did read the article before I got into this discussion about this article.

Originally posted by lnr42
reply to post by mrvdreamknight

 

Yeah sorry, I was less than clear wasnt I? Freshly armed with more coffee....

I think the OP and posted article is skewed and any such law would be impossible to enforce anyway.

Quiet prayer to oneself is fine. Organised praise in church is fine, where all participants are there expressly for that purpose. Outside church many people are not going to share your belief system and some may see it as an intrusion.

You have your whole life to pray, why do you need to make a public spectacle of it whenever possible?

edit on 15-1-2011 by lnr42 because: sp

Public spectacle? Agreed. It should never be. But I hate to break it to you. I'm praying for you now and whenever I'm at a public gathering - I'm praying for all those there too.

But if I'm persecuted for making the sign of the cross or holding my hands together or bowing my head in public, then I would have a problem with it. Big time.

Just as I would have problem with non-belief believers not being allowed to be atheists in public. i.e.- they wear a shirt saying they're an atheist and getting verbally abused or something like that.