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Originally posted by lostviking
reply to post by 4nsicphd
The mortgages were void because the note and mortgage were separated when the loan was securitized. With credit cards, I would believe that the creditor would need to demonstrate that they actually loaned the money from their balance sheet, and never sold off the loan.
edit on 14-1-2011 by lostviking because: (no reason given)
I keep waiting for citi or chase or some other megalithic creditor to try to move these defaults into the criminal courts...charging fraud, theft, conversion of property, etc...
Defendant Jerome Daly opposed the bank's foreclosure on his $14,000 home mortgage loan on the ground that there was no consideration for the loan. "Consideration" ("the thing exchanged") is an essential element of a contract. Daly, an attorney representing himself, argued that the bank had put up no real money for his loan. The courtroom proceedings were recorded by Associate Justice Bill Drexler, whose chief role, he said, was to keep order in a highly charged courtroom where the attorneys were threatening a fist fight. Drexler hadn't given much credence to the theory of the defense, until Mr. Morgan, the bank's president, took the stand. To everyone's surprise, Morgan admitted that the bank routinely created money "out of thin air" for its loans, and that this was standard banking practice. "It sounds like fraud to me," intoned Presiding Justice Martin Mahoney amid nods from the jurors. In his court memorandum, Justice Mahoney stated:
Plaintiff admitted that it, in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, . . . did create the entire $14,000.00 in money and credit upon its own books by bookkeeping entry. That this was the consideration used to support the Note dated May 8, 1964 and the Mortgage of the same date. The money and credit first came into existence when they created it. Mr. Morgan admitted that no United States Law or Statute existed which gave him the right to do this. A lawful consideration must exist and be tendered to support the Note.
The court rejected the bank's claim for foreclosure, and the defendant kept his house. To Daly, the implications were enormous. If bankers were indeed extending credit without consideration – without backing their loans with money they actually had in their vaults and were entitled to lend – a decision declaring their loans void could topple the power base of the world.
Needless to say, however, the decision failed to change prevailing practice, although it was never overruled. It was heard in a Justice of the Peace Court, an autonomous court system dating back to those frontier days when defendants had trouble traveling to big cities to respond to summonses. In that system (which has now been phased out), judges and courts were pretty much on their own. Justice Mahoney, who was not dependent on campaign financing or hamstrung by precedent, went so far as to threaten to prosecute and expose the bank. He died less than six months after the trial, in a mysterious accident that appeared to involve poisoning.4 Since that time, a number of defendants have attempted to avoid loan defaults using the defense Daly raised; but they have met with only limited success. As one judge said off the record:
If I let you do that – you and everyone else – it would bring the whole system down. . . . I cannot let you go behind the bar of the bank. . . . We are not going behind that curtain!
You want a trial with a jury for this type of court action.
Originally posted by lostviking
reply to post by starshift
If the debt was discharged in a Chapter 7, you owe nothing. They can try to collect, but don't even respond. On your credit report it should say "included in Chapter 7". They can't report negative entries once discharged in BK.
File another LLC and go on.
Originally posted by lostviking
reply to post by 4nsicphd
Good point. I am researching strategy, out of interest. I am current on all of my loans. Any idea how to negotiate a settlement while current, so your credit doesn't suffer?
Originally posted by lostviking
reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne
Great post SOTLOO! How about having the original debt removed from your credit report because they are no longer the lender because they sold off your debt into a securitized pool?
If the government guarantee was waived in whole or in part, which I am sure is the case, then the rationale for non-dischargeability disappears. So I am suggesting that the assumption that the student loan is non-dischargeable should be challenged based upon the individual facts of your student loan. If it was securitized and it most likely was, then the party seeking to enforce the debt must prove that the government guarantee still applies. Otherwise it should be treated like any other unsecured debt.
Editor’s comment: Fact: Nearly all finance was securitized and still is. Ron Lieber talks below about efforts to change the law so student loans could be dischargeable in bankruptcy. Good idea. But I’m not so sure it is necessary to change the law. The entire student loan structure, as President Obama has pointed out, is just plain wrong. Somehow loans that were provided by government anyway became guaranteed by government and then actually “funded” by banks. The banks could charge whatever interest they wanted, which frequently rose to usurious levels and if the student didn’t pay, then the government did, which is the way it was before they let private banks into the mix. The effect was to burden students with loans that were impossible to pay off given the economic context of unemployment, underemployment and stagnant median income. So the prospective students frequently put off the education or avoided it entirely because the economics did not make sense. Those that did take the plunge are “underwater” just like U.S. Homeowners all because of financial chicanery. To top things off they made student loans —- private student loans — non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. The theory was that since the government was doing students the favor of providing a guarantee of the loans, the loans would be more available, thus increasing liquidity in the student loan market. Since the net effect was a gusher of money pouring into private banks from the pockets of students, marketing efforts (including payoffs in student adviser facilities on campus) did in fact lure students into these ridiculous arrangements. Enter securitization: Since the private bank was guaranteed against loss, this provided the rationale for this lock-up system enslaving students before their careers even begin. But virtually ALL private banks were simply paid a fee for fronting the marketing of the loan which was funded with investor money because the loans were securitized before they were ever granted and thus the money and the risk was already resolved before the “underwriting” of the loan. Like the mortgage loans, underwriting standards were dropped completely in favor of parameters set by Wall Street. The appearance of underwriting was preserved, but like mortgages, not very well. Like the mortgages, credit enhancements were added to the mix adding co-obligors right in the pooling and servicing agreements and assignments and assumption agreements, including insurance, credit default swaps etc. Thus the “lender” that originating the Loan was what? A pretender lender whoa advanced no funds or capital of their own. Since the originating lender made the election of laying off the risk into slices and pieces and credit enhancements, they, in my opinion, waived the government guarantee. If the government guarantee was waived in whole or in part, which I am sure is the case, then the rationale for non-dischargeability disappears. So I am suggesting that the assumption that the student loan is non-dischargeable should be challenged based upon the individual facts of your student loan. If it was securitized and it most likely was, then the party seeking to enforce the debt must prove that the government guarantee still applies. Otherwise it should be treated like any other unsecured debt. ———————————————— June 4, 2010 Student Debt and a Push for Fairness By RON LIEBER If you run up big credit card bills buying a new home theater system and can’t pay it off after a few years, bankruptcy judges can get rid of the debt. They may even erase loans from a casino. But if you borrow money to get an education and can’t afford the loan payments after a few years of underemployment, that’s another matter entirely. It’s nearly impossible to get rid of the debt in bankruptcy court, even if it’s a private loan from for-profit lenders like Citibank or the student loan specialist Sallie Mae. This part of the bankruptcy law is little known outside education circles, but ever since it went into effect in 2005, it’s inspired shock and often rage among young adults who got in over their heads. Today, they find themselves in the same category as people who can’t discharge child support payments or criminal fines. Now, even Sallie Mae, tired of being a punching bag for consumer advocates and hoping to avoid changes that would hurt its business too severely, has agreed that the law needs alteration. Bills in the Senate and House of Representatives would make the rules for private loans less strict, now that Congress has finished the job of getting banks out of the business of originating federal student loans. With this latest initiative, however, lawmakers face a question that’s less about banking than it is about social policy or political calculation. At a time when voters are furious at their neighbors for getting themselves into mortgage trouble, do legislators really want to change the bankruptcy laws so that even more people can walk away from their debts? There are two main types of student loans. Under the proposed changes, borrowers would remain on the hook for federal loans, like Stafford and Perkins loans, as they have been for many years. To most people, this seems fair because the federal government (and ultimately taxpayers) stand behind these loans. There are also many payment plans and even forgiveness programs for some borrowers. In 2005, however, Congress made the bankruptcy rules the same for the second kind of debt, private loans underwritten by profit-making banks. These have no government guarantees and come with fewer repayment options. Undergraduates can also borrow much more than they can with federal loans, making trouble more likely. Destitute borrowers can still discharge student loan debt if they experience “undue hardship.” But that condition is nearly impossible to prove, absent a severe disability. Meanwhile, the volume of private loans, which are most popular among students attending profit-making schools, has grown rapidly in the last two decades as students have tried to close the gap between the rising price of tuition and what they can afford. In the 2007-8 school year, the latest period for which good data is available, about one third of all recipients of bachelor’s degrees had used a private loan at some point before they graduated, according to College Board research. Tightening credit caused total private loan volume to fall by about half to roughly $11 billion in the 2008-9 school year, according to the College Board. Tim Ranzetta, founder of Student Lending Analytics, figures it fell an additional 24 percent this last academic year, though his estimate doesn’t include some state-based nonprofit lenders. There is no strong evidence that young adults would line up at bankruptcy court in the event of a change. That gives Democrats and university groups hope that Congress could succeed in making the laws less strict. In Congressional hearings on the efforts to change the rule, last year and then in April, no lender was present to make the case for the status quo. Instead, it fell to lawyers and financiers who work for them. They made the following points. BANKRUPTCIES WOULD RISE At the April hearing, John Hupalo, managing director for student loans at Samuel A. Ramirez and Company, made the most obvious case against any change. “With no assets to lose, an education in hand, why not discharge the loan without ever making a payment to the lender?” he said. Once you set aside this questionable presumption of mendacity among the young, there are actually plenty of practical reasons why not. “People don’t like to go through bankruptcy,” said Representative Steve Cohen, Democrat of Tennessee, who introduced the House bill that would change the rules. “It’s not like going to get a milkshake.” Andy Winchell, a bankruptcy lawyer in Summit, N.J., likens student loan debt to tattoos: They’re easy to get, people tend to get them when they’re young, and they’re awfully hard to get rid of. And he would remind clients of a couple of things. First, you generally can’t make another bankruptcy filing and discharge more debt for many years. So if you, in essence, cry wolf with a filing to erase your student loans, you’ll be in a real bind if you then face crushing medical debt two years later. Then there’s the damage to your credit report. While it doesn’t remain there forever, the blemish can have an enormous impact on young people trying to establish themselves with an employer or buy a home. Finally, you’re going to have to persuade a lawyer to take your case. And if it seems that you’re simply shirking your obligations, many lawyers will kick you out of their offices. “It’s not easy to find a dishonest bankruptcy attorney who is going to risk their license to practice law on a case they don’t believe in,” Mr. Winchell said. Sallie Mae can live with a change, so long as there’s a waiting period before anyone can try to discharge the debts. “Sallie Mae continues to support reform that would allow federal and private student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy for those who have made a good-faith effort to repay their student loans over a five-to-seven-year period and still experience financial difficulty,” the company said in a prepared statement. While there is no waiting period in either of the current bills, Mr. Cohen said he could live with one if that’s what it took to get a bill through Congress. “Philosophy and policy can get you on the Rachel Maddow show, but what you want to do is pass legislation and affect people’s lives,” he said, referring to the host of an MSNBC news program. BANKS WOULDN’T LEND ANYMORE Private student loans are an unusual line of business, given that lenders hand over money to students who might not finish their studies and have uncertain earning prospects even if they do get a degree. “Borrowers are not creditworthy to begin with, almost by definition,” Mr. Hupalo said in an interview this week. But banks that have stayed in the business (and others, like credit unions, that have entered recently) have made adjustments that will probably protect them far more than any alteration in the bankruptcy laws will hurt. For instance, it’s become much harder to get many private loans without a co-signer. That means lenders have two adults on the hook for repayment instead of just one. BORROWING COSTS WOULD RISE They probably would rise a bit, at least at first as lenders assume the worst (especially if Congress applies any change to outstanding loans instead of limiting it to future ones). But this might not be such a bad thing. Private loans exist because the cost of college is often so much higher than what undergraduates can borrow through federal loans, which have annual limits. Some lenders may be predatory and many borrowers are irresponsible, but this debate would be much less loud if tuition were not rising so quickly. So if loans cost more and lenders underwrite fewer of them, people will have less money to spend on their education. Some fly-by-night profit-making schools might cease to exist, and all but the most popular private nonprofit universities might finally be forced to reckon with their costs and course offerings. Prices might come down. And young adults just getting started in life might be less likely to face a nasty choice between decades of oppressive debt payments and visiting a bankruptcy judge before starting an entry-level job. Spread the word StumbleUpon Digg Reddit Share
The Wall Street Journal ran an interesting piece last week suggesting the federal government collects a hefty portion of defaulted student loans. But Collinge – who was quoted in the story – argues that it didn’t quite paint the real picture. “After paying the companies that actually collect the loans and other costs, the U.S. Department of Education expects to recover 85% of defaulted federal loan dollars based on current value,” says the WSJ, noting that the percentage of student loan collections are relatively huge compared to collections on other defaulted consumer credit. Banks, for example, might retrieve 10 cents for every dollar from past due credit cards. But what the article doesn’t explain, Collinge tells me, is that the government is collecting 85% on hugely inflated loans. “The current value of the default portfolio includes principal plus interest at time of default, plus a tremendous amount of interest that accrued after default.” And therein lies some possible profit and perhaps a serious, twisted incentive to offer students six-figure loans they will most likely never be able to repay. ”Given a current defaulted loan portfolio of approximately $60 billion, the amount of revenue this represents to the Department of education is in the tens of billions of dollars,” writes Collinge in his self-published report.
Originally posted by lostviking
reply to post by 4nsicphd
Chapter 11 is a business discharge. If it was discharged through the Chapter 11 it is uncollectable. The debt can be sold to third party collectors, but they have no legal standing. You can either not reply, or send them a cease and desist letter that says this was discharged in your Chapter 11, and if they continue to harass you that you will take legal action. (there is lots of info on the internet how to to stop collection calls/mail).