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A Tea Party Member speaks out.

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posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer
Why does less government have to be a "conservative" idea?
Why can't it be an "idea"?
Why does personal responsibility have to be a conservative mantra?
Why can't it be just a mantra?


Great post! I want less government AND personality responsibility and I don't even have a political party!

BTW, beezzer, I don't bite.
Well... unless I'm asked to.
I may disagree with your ideas or opinions, but I believe we can disagree and still respect each other... I have plenty of friends on the left, the right and in-between.




posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by beezzer
Why does less government have to be a "conservative" idea?
Why can't it be an "idea"?
Why does personal responsibility have to be a conservative mantra?
Why can't it be just a mantra?


Great post! I want less government AND personality responsibility and I don't even have a political party!

BTW, beezzer, I don't bite.
Well... unless I'm asked to.
I may disagree with your ideas or opinions, but I believe we can disagree and still respect each other... I have plenty of friends on the left, the right and in-between.


Thank you.
When both sides stop hijacking good ideas, like the Tea Party, or even healthcare reform, and people stop looking at these concepts through political prisms, we can finally move forward.



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by beezzerHi. My name is Beezzer, and I'm a Tea Partier. I have been for over a year now.



Hi, Beezzer!

Great post and while I don’t do to any “tea party” functions I support the movement to get the nation back on the road to recovery through the proper application of the Constitution. So perhaps I can help by posting some of my beliefs here since I bet while some are the same some may be different.

I can sum up what I feel to be the proper role of government using this video:




If the state is given t he power to provide for some – it must also be given the power to take from others.
And once that power is granted there are those who would seek it to their advantage


This is why Obamacare, Medicaid, Welfare, WIC and other Federal charity programs are unconstitutional. Charity is good, even some government charity is necessary but it should all be local.

The framers did not enumerate the Federal Government with the power to provide charity in any form nor to provide for the education of children, feeding the hungry or mending the sick or injured.

Here is why; I have taken the below thoughts from: A Lesson on the Role of Government With Respect To Charity

Not Yours to Give! - Speech before the House of Representatives - by Colonel David (Davy) Crockett


(Paraphrased actually) The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man, particularly under our system….

…If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, the government (or those who represent it) are at liberty to give to anything and everything which they may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you may think proper….

One can very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for robbing the people on the other...


This event was supposedly related to a vote taken to give "aid" (charity) so some victims of a fire in Alexandria, VA. There is some speculation that this speech never even took place and that it was the complete fabrication of the author of Davy Crocket’s memoirs; however, even if not literal the lesson contained within it is still a good one.

Which brings me to this point:

Remember if the government has the ability to give you everything you need it also has the power to take away everything that you have . I don’t want that type of government.

No one is entitled to food, shelter and clothing, medical care or anything like that under the Constitution – just life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not a guarantee that you will never be hungry, cold or broke, but the opportunity to compete with others to not be.

Some believe those are "human rights" rights are not entitlements and with all rights come responsibility - like the personal responsibility to provide one's own food, shelter and clothing, medical care etc.

It is not the responsibility of government - nor does the government have the authority to take the fruits of one citizens' labor and give it to another citizen regardless of the perceived desperate nature of that person's plight so that the gulf between thier lifestyles should be lessened.

Charity is voluntary, when you take money by force its theft whether done by criminals at the point of a gun or government tax collectors with a regulation and penalty of incarceration for nonpayment; this is also true without regard to the perceived worthiness of the perceived cause (see above example).

Once we get into the business of “redistributing the wealth” (which is basically what the government has become today) to make the society more “fair” and “humane” we either end up with:

1) Either: A welfare state designed to curry favor with certain seemingly disadvantaged groups of minorities to gain political endorsement (VOTES!) at the expense of the rights of others. Is that popularly referred to as - (left?)

2) Or: A welfare state curry favor with certain seemingly disadvantaged groups of businesses or corporations to gain political endorsement (VOTES!) at the expense of the rights of others. Is that popularly referred to as - (right?)

In the video there is an excellent point:


We are taught to believe that Communism and Nazism are at the far left and right of the political spectrums; Communism on the extreme left and fascism at the extreme right


Actually the better way to look at things is like the video suggests that one must look at government on a scale of involvement in our lives from 0% (Anarchists) to 100% (Totalitarians).

Through that view you can see that both the extreme left and the extreme right are totalitarian regimes just different in their methods of achieving the same ends - total control and indoctrination of the population.

It is clearly the difference between individualism and collectivism that is killing us; we tend to either look at people as individuals responsible for their own decisions or as groups entitled to certain advantages or limitations to make the playing field level because of perceived injustices in the past.

I am not implying that heinous injustices did not occur in the past rather that any penalty levied on people alive today is as much an injustice since such events likely happened long ago. Two wrongs will never equal a right – isn’t that how it goes?

Anyway - Individuals are not all created equal, we have different abilities; intellect, physical strength and even ambition or drive. When I was a kid I wanted to play linebacker for the Chicago Bears – yet cruel fate made me 5’9” and 180 lbs hardly pro linebacker material…so I found something else I was good at – the Army.

I did not ask that small short guys should have special status and demand an NFL team hire me so that the defensive team could appear more representative of society as a whole as far as size is concerned.

In a similar vein - hard as it is to say, some people simply lack the intellect and or drive to live the “American Dream” of home ownership or a secure financial future (if that is even the dream any longer - notoriety seems to be taking its place at the fore when people are asked what they want out of life) – that is sad but true.

However, taking money from those who have the ability to successfully compete in the marketplace and giving it to them is not the answer. It’s just theft under the guise of concern for our fellow man...

No amount of legislation is going to make us absolutely equal in the ability to be successful and penalizing those who do become so is hardly the way to incentivize the behavior necessary to succeed in the modern world.

Again, individualism vs. collectivism:

Collectivism (Marxism, Communism, Socialism, etc.) believes the state should solve all the problems: More government is the answer.

If you subscribe to the thought that government is the answer to all the society's problems eventually by design you will end up with a totalitarian government regardless of what name you give it.

The only place for us to be in the line between 0-----------100 percent government control is somewhere in the middle.

We need rules sure but they must be based on individualism and the thought that the least amount of government possible is best.

Giving groups of people (minorities) special status and protection under the law is just as wrong as giving then limitations in the same way – either way its inequality under the law.

Just like giving certain business or interests (corporations, unions or any lobby groups) special incentives or breaks is just as bad as charging some more taxes or imposing regulations to restrict their pay or profits.

If the government stuck to the enumerated powers they would not be able to buy votes with our tax money in this way

“That government is best which governs the least.”

I suggest the this whole series of videos as I have looked for a simple way to explain my beliefs to others and I think this series is spot on.

You can see in all 5 how they come to the logical conclusions that they do in this last one. (The Proper Role of Government).

Cheers!


edit on 14/1/2011 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by Golf66
 


Thanks for your post, awesome video!

What I've always said is that there is a left and a right. An up and a down. There are those that WILL benefit from the current party in power and those that won't.

Those numbers/members change. But it is polarizing. A positive and a negative. And depending on which side you're sitting on, it'll always be positive.

Those against you, negative.



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Your OP got me inspired. That is why I put "choir" in parenthesis.

Good OP by the way. S&Fed earlier.



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by beezzer
 


Your OP got me inspired. That is why I put "choir" in parenthesis.

Good OP by the way. S&Fed earlier.


Thank you. I admire your atttude sir.
Your commitment to an issue, a cause is noteworthy.
Anyone who supports the freedoms that the founding fathers gave us, deserves an applause!



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Well hello tea partier! First of all, I like this thread. You stated where you stood and how you felt about being a tea partier and you also left open an opportunity for us to ask you questions. I think this is a great opportunity for people to come out and get into a real debate here, and a clean one, hopefully.

I've got many many questions for you, tea partier, as I have been one of the largest critics on this forum regarding the tea party movement. If you don't mind, I'd like to list my questions down here, and hopefully we can get the ball rolling by you or other tea partiers answering them.

When do you plan on removing medicare and medicaid? Do you believe that you will gain sufficient support within the conservative population to remove these programmes? It was afew months back that the GOP reminded their constituents of their support for medicare, a socialist healthcare programme, probably because there are many many elderly conservative supporters who rely on this. How do you get pass this dillemma? Is there a Dillemma?

The above question leads to my second question, how does the tea parties intend to sort out our health crises once they remove the previous healthcare bill?

I'd also like to know why, following the last elections, did the tea parties fail to get elected one single third party member? Instead we have Boehner, somebody who was a strong supporter of the Bush doctrine, take the reigns in DC. Do you not have issue with this?



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer
Why does less government have to be a "conservative" idea?


I'll just answer this here.

I do not believe that "small government" is a conservative idea neither do I believe that liberalism is about "big government". These are all partisan political points made from time to time, they have no basis to what these ideologies are about. The core issue here is not about cutting government as I am sure any liberal including myself would love to have smaller government. The issue is as to where government needs to be cut, the issue is what's wrong with government. The idea of a smaller government to many conservatives is in completely cutting out social programmes. Liberals do not see that as the solution to cutting down government and solving a problem. We have a bloated military, we have representitives misspending our money, we have pointless wars abroad, the most recent of which were overwhelmingly supported by conservatives from the start.
edit on 14-1-2011 by Southern Guardian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by beezzer
 


Well hello tea partier! First of all, I like this thread. You stated where you stood and how you felt about being a tea partier and you also left open an opportunity for us to ask you questions. I think this is a great opportunity for people to come out and get into a real debate here, and a clean one, hopefully.

I've got many many questions for you, tea partier, as I have been one of the largest critics on this forum regarding the tea party movement. If you don't mind, I'd like to list my questions down here, and hopefully we can get the ball rolling by you or other tea partiers answering them.

When do you plan on removing medicare and medicaid? Do you believe that you will gain sufficient support within the conservative population to remove these programmes? It was afew months back that the GOP reminded their constituents of their support for medicare, a socialist healthcare programme, probably because there are many many elderly conservative supporters who rely on this. How do you get pass this dillemma? Is there a Dillemma?

The above question leads to my second question, how does the tea parties intend to sort out our health crises once they remove the previous healthcare bill?

I'd also like to know why, following the last elections, did the tea parties fail to get elected one single third party member? Instead we have Boehner, somebody who was a strong supporter of the Bush doctrine, take the reigns in DC. Do you not have issue with this?



Brilliant response! Medicare and medicaid. Okay. We have evolved into a society where things are "expected" ie, medicare/medicaid/social security. . . . . these are entitlement programs that have to go.
Now before you accuse me of killing the poor, the elderly the whatever. . I don't want those in need to suffer. These programs have to be phased out. It may be tough on some people, but personal responsibility has to come to fore. We have to relearn that YOU are responsible for yourself, you have to take care of yourself. When you give government, any government control of where you live, how you live, when you get treated, how you get treated, you lose control.
We are unique. You can't compare issues in Canada or Europe to the conditions here. The mindset is totally different.

My views may conflict with others in the Tea Party movement. But I see hypocracy when some members spout independence and cash in their government checks. I, for one, am not expecting social security of any benefits from the government. I'm in my 40's and am planning to be independent from any kind of control.

Healthcare definitely needs an overhaul. Not the "obama-fix-everything-we'll-take-care-of-everything" plan.

But something more sensible like caps on lawsuits, interstate insurance, and just going back to a pay for play system. When I was young, you paid the doc for a service. Now people expect that same service for free.

Hope this answered your post.



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by beezzer
Why does less government have to be a "conservative" idea?


I'll just answer this here.

I do not believe that "small government" is a conservative idea neither do I believe that liberalism is about "big government". These are all partisan political points made from time to time, they have no basis to what these ideologies are about. The core issue here is not about cutting government as I am sure any liberal including myself would love to have smaller government. The issue is as to where government needs to be cut, the issue is what's wrong with government. The idea of a smaller government to many conservatives is in completely cutting out social programmes. Liberals do not see that as the solution to cutting down government and solving a problem. We have a bloated military, we have representitives misspending our money, we have pointless wars abroad, the most recent of which were overwhelmingly supported by conservatives from the start.
edit on 14-1-2011 by Southern Guardian because: (no reason given)


Great point!!! I for one would abolish the Dept. of Education and leave those issues to the individual states before cuting the military. But I have a bias there. You have provided something to think about though.

Which leads to where cuts should NOT be made. Forgive the long pause, I really want to tink about this before answering.



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
The thing about the "Tea Party" is that it isn't one group...so I don't think you can speak for all of them.
IF it is one big organization...then Fox News has told me that Sarah Palin is your leader...is that true?

ur right, the tea party is NOT all one group.
we are a collective.

a corrupt government cannot stop a collective
as there is no head to cut off.

And for the record, I am a Tea Partier
and I don't like Palin worth a crap
so she is NOT my leader.

My leader is the US Constitution.

edit on 1/14/2011 by boondock-saint because: spelling



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 

Well I've thought about it.
Govrnment should have the absolute minimum involvement in anything. Really. Government should support the military, and help in infrastructure. Bridges, Dams, etc.
Government should NOT be involved with health, welfare, housing, . . . . . . .

The more government involvement, the less freedom we have. I like freedom, I enjoy the concept. I do not like having any authority tell me where to go, where to live, what to eat, what treatments I can have, . . . . . . .

I just don't like that. Maybe scientists will someday find a defective gene for onery/anti-gubment!

But this is my belief. I hope that satisfied you question.




posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


Hi my name is whaaa...

I'm a "people like you" branded as such by many TPM folks on ATS.

Please tell me what that means!



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by beezzer
 


Hi my name is whaaa...

I'm a "people like you" branded as such by many TPM folks on ATS.

Please tell me what that means!



Please elaborate. Do you mean you are a liberal who instantly hates Tea Party folks? Or just a liberal who falls under the Tea Party (by media definition) paradigm?



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by beezzer
 


Hi my name is whaaa...

I'm a "people like you" branded as such by many TPM folks on ATS.

Please tell me what that means!



Please elaborate. Do you mean you are a liberal who instantly hates Tea Party folks? Or just a liberal who falls under the Tea Party (by media definition) paradigm?


Have you already labeled me a Liberal. Funny, I see myself as more as a moderate. Labels are easy to attach to people with different opinions. Classic divide and conquer! We them, Tribalism cliquishness group think.
edit on 14-1-2011 by whaaa because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by beezzer
 


Hi my name is whaaa...

I'm a "people like you" branded as such by many TPM folks on ATS.

Please tell me what that means!



Please elaborate. Do you mean you are a liberal who instantly hates Tea Party folks? Or just a liberal who falls under the Tea Party (by media definition) paradigm?


Have you already labeled me a Liberal. Funny, I see myself as more as a moderate. Labels are easy to attach to people with different opinions.



Well said! Touche! I'm constantly being labeled, and here I am labeling you. I apologize.
Please, speak your mind, express yourself.


edit on 14-1-2011 by beezzer because: edit



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by beezzer
 


Yeah, people love to take stabs at us "rightwing fringe nutjob racist teaparty members" it seems. I am not left wing, I am not right wing, you really do need a little of both wings if you would like to fly


"tie two birds together, and even though they have four wings they cannot fly" (from circle of Iron)



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by Phedreus

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by beezzer
 


Yeah, people love to take stabs at us "rightwing fringe nutjob racist teaparty members" it seems. I am not left wing, I am not right wing, you really do need a little of both wings if you would like to fly


"tie two birds together, and even though they have four wings they cannot fly" (from circle of Iron)


Awesome quote.
Thank you.



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 04:54 PM
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Thank you for this thread. I've learned a lot.

My question is, "Where is there room for moderates like me?" I swear I can't find any. The MSM makes it seem you either are far left or far right. I'm square in the middle. Conservative on issues like crime, guns, immigration and states rights, and liberal when it comes to helping people. Is there a party for people like me, or are we just a lone voice in the wilderness?



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by tncryptogal
Thank you for this thread. I've learned a lot.

My question is, "Where is there room for moderates like me?" I swear I can't find any. The MSM makes it seem you either are far left or far right. I'm square in the middle. Conservative on issues like crime, guns, immigration and states rights, and liberal when it comes to helping people. Is there a party for people like me, or are we just a lone voice in the wilderness?


I know exactly how you feel! Libertarianism perhaps.
edit on 14-1-2011 by whaaa because: (no reason given)



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