Dealing with cops, understanding your rights,.... by a cop.

reply to post by silent thunder

When you are in a public place there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. I do not have a problem with people filming me or my work. It will help the honest cop stay honest and the dishonest cop to re-evaluate his position. Let the cameras roll.
Seeashrink

reply to post by seeashrink


Good advice which I might add I usually do anyway..

I do think it's a shame though that the best way to get a good outcome is to basically grovel..

It's not meant to be that way but it is..s&f

reply to post by lastrebel

I remember those same times, but sadly they are gone and we live in a different world.

Seeashrink

reply to post by gimme_some_truth

The cop was wrong and over reacted and I appreciate the maturity that you have shown both then and now. Just this past couple of weeks I had to help cut down a guy who hung himself, had to tell his wife, and his parents, and then had to go about the rest of the day dealing with people as if nothing happened. Having said that, I would not have been justified blowing somebody out for nothing. Sounds like you handled the situation a lot better than the cop did.
Seeashrink

reply to post by backinblack

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think anyone should have to grovel either. Just be professional and fight the battle on your terms and on the grounds that you feel comfortable. Not the cops.
Seeashrink

Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by backinblack

 

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think anyone should have to grovel either. Just be professional and fight the battle on your terms and on the grounds that you feel comfortable. Not the cops.
Seeashrink

But you do say even if the cop is wrong we should still be nice, co operative and just do as they say..
Write a report and submit it..

I agree with that but it IS groveling...No two ways about it...
If it wasn't a cop you'd rightfully tell them to p@#off...

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by backinblack

 

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think anyone should have to grovel either. Just be professional and fight the battle on your terms and on the grounds that you feel comfortable. Not the cops.
Seeashrink

But you do say even if the cop is wrong we should still be nice, co operative and just do as they say..
Write a report and submit it..

I agree with that but it IS groveling...No two ways about it...
If it wasn't a cop you'd rightfully tell them to p@#off...

Point taken.

This response originally was to another posters declaration that police navigate around warrantless searches ever day:

The Second Amendment: A Treatise

Oath Keepers: Declaration Of Orders We Will Not Obey

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.
2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people.
3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.
4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.
5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.
7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.
8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."
9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

Please don't misunderstand my post - this is not an organization to which the military in general belong.

I am, and was in my last year of service; many are not but support the movement in spirit in case the organization at some point is designated a subversive organization and they lose their careers.

Our local Sheriff is a member and has a window sticker on his explorer - the official County vehicle. I assure you he is a redneck through and through (that is not an insult where I live rather the opposite actually) but would take issue with the charge that he does a warrantless search every day.

First of all it is not an order from on high it is just a part of his everyday duties.

However, I am supposing that you mean the search they make for their safety incident to any traffic stop?

This is not a warrantless search it is a search incidental to probable cause to detain and question you - that of you breaking the law.

They can only search what is visible in plain sight and should you not consent to a further search the LEO can not intrude further (failure to consent is niether probable casue or resonable suspision in and of itself) - that is unless you give cues that indicate drunkenness or something that might escalate to a further search of your sobriety or say blood splatters in the back of the vehicle – common after hunting around here – they ask, “What’s the blood from?” The deer I took last week… “Ok, No problem.

If you are refereeing to random road blocks on New Year’s etc., I would say they are only looking for you to produce your license and registration which you must have to legally operate a vehicle. If you do so and show no signs of drunkenness or have nothing in plain view - you have nothing to fear.

Freemen will tell you there is a huge legal difference betweeen driving and your right to travel by any conveyance you choose as long as you obey the law. (I choose to go a long with the licence issue becasue its eiasier and I draw a federal pension, which makes my declaration of freeman status impossible.)

Anyway...

I got stopped only once in like the last 15 years first question of course:

"Do you know why I stopped you?" (Meantime has shining the light in the vehicle to see what’s there...for his safety)

Easy, yeah I was speeding, sorry was listening to talk radio and engrossed in the topic.... (Why lie it never pays off.)

Next question - "Do you have any weapons on you on or in the car?" Yes, a 1911 under my jacket.

"Please keep your hands on the wheel sir..." ) NO issue I'd say the same...

"Do you have your permit on you and may I see your License and Registration Please?' Sure..No problem...

"Please do it slowly for me, where I can see your hands at all times..." Of course...same warning I'd give - could be a crazy guy after all.

"I gave him my Military ID since my DL was from another state, my registration, and CCW permit. At no time did he ask me to disarm myself or to see the weapon.

10 Minutes later he comes back and says, "Major, thanks for your service, please watch your speed more closely in the future, this is an area we have had a lot of accidents lately. Thanks for your cooperation."

No warrantless search there...


Then there was this advice:
Originally posted by lastrebel
reply to post by Golf66
________________________________________

They have ways to get around "no search" if you opt out you get to sit on the side of the road for 2 hours waiting for the drug dog to get there. I am biker and since i retired i just travel around the country and get this often. I have had it happen 3 times crossing one state............but again I have had them just ask for my info, be polite and send me on my way......but that leaves the question of why i was pulled over to begin with............which no one asks because that is a great way to get an unneeded ticket.

It is what it is......they see someone with long hair, beard and tattoos and want to "check you out" which is profiling. That flies in the face warrentless search...........if only by the spirit if not the letter.

My bold for emphasis.

Actually, I would recommend if that happens again for you to ask him if you are under arrest...

If he says no...You can just say thanks; pack up your stuff and go. If he says yes, you can say on what charge? If he has no answer then ask again until he says no.... then pack your stuff and go. If he delays say you consider it harassment and unreasonable detention.

You cannot be detained in the way you described to wait for 2 hours a search dog to come (unless you match some suspect in a crime or a real reason (intuition is not a reason) he had to believe – odor behavior whatever that you had drugs - which only you know the answer to.

Remember the burden of proof is his and you hold all the cards if you know your rights - state that you are being held against your will and unlesshe intends to arrest you for some violation please ask for the name of his desk sergeant and the number - Depending on the weather a very short time could be considered reasonable.

Also, you have to realize that the way you describe yourself (some may interpret that [wrongly] choice as matching a biker gang member profile) could indeed be the profile of someone they are looking for at the time?

Not that short haired people in cars don't commit crime but maybe if you got stopped 3 times in one state you matched the description of someone for whom they are searching?

Specifically referencing your point that I made bold: Pro-tip, he knows why you were stopped and he will likely ask you so he can use your admission against you.

Don't be afraid of the admission, (be honest) you have not been Mirandized at that point so it is inadmissible in court anyway. Just remind the Judge (Likely a magistrate not a real judge, that you were not mirandized.)

If he doesn't ask you, you ask him because he is an LEO and anything he says is admissible regardless (again get it one tape)

If he doesn't have a reason or wont tell you, ask if you are under arrest - if not say thanks and drive off. Nothing at all he can do about it. Any further intrusion is harassment and he is drifting into "loosing my job teritory".

Note: the more of this transaction you have on tape the better.

Might be harder for you because of the manner in which you chose to dress, (no one said all choices are easy ones; poor coices have consequences...not a jugement just a fact) but if you know your rights and are firm and respectful you should get justice - if not you will get a nice fat settlement eventually in the end the officer will be working at NAPPA.

Cheers!

edit on 13/1/2011 by Golf66 because: Mistake on my part -

Ex-cop here. Good stuff OP.

From my experience both on and off the job:


Big city cops - jaded asses
Medium city cops - no big problems
Small town cops - most are there because they can't get on a bigger force, or are fresh gung-ho out of the academy
Sheriff Deputies - No big issues
State Troopers - The biggest jerk wads of all time.

I left the career because I got tired of the rampant politics, back biting, corruption, and constitutional infringements that were present in every department (over 30 different departments in the are I live).



Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Golf66


For the record I am not a Gang mamber, most of us arent contrary to popular belief, I am a retired businessman that enjoys riding and seeing the country. The hair and tattoos are a choice.........which I assume is still legal, but the leather is for protection if and when you hit the ground. During all the searches and harressments no drugs were ever found. One thing you said I didnt know was you were fre to leave, that isnt what I was told but I dont know the legality of it. Another thing is do you honestly think they are going to let you ride off after being told to stay there, I would think that would just give them a reason to taze you and arrest you for resisting arrest.

Originally posted by seeashrink

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by backinblack

 

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think anyone should have to grovel either. Just be professional and fight the battle on your terms and on the grounds that you feel comfortable. Not the cops.
Seeashrink

But you do say even if the cop is wrong we should still be nice, co operative and just do as they say..
Write a report and submit it..

I agree with that but it IS groveling...No two ways about it...
If it wasn't a cop you'd rightfully tell them to p@#off...

Point taken.

edit on 13-1-2011 by seeashrink because: (no reason given)

This is one of those how much of a battle do you want to have over a principle at that particular time - at the stop he has chosen the field.

SUN TZU will tell you (paraphrasing) - Give ground when you must to to create a false sense of security n one's foe only to exploit the advantage later on your terms and on ground of your chosing.

Out there on the road he is nervous, and you are likely headed elswhere (loose loose situation) - cool off, make the logical complaint in writing to the correct offical and you will get a response I assure you.

Originally posted by lastrebel
reply to post by Golf66

 

For the record I am not a Gang mamber, most of us arent contrary to popular belief, I am a retired businessman that enjoys riding and seeing the country. The hair and tattoos are a choice.........which I assume is still legal, but the leather is for protection if and when you hit the ground. During all the searches and harressments no drugs were ever found. One thing you said I didnt know was you were fre to leave, that isnt what I was told but I dont know the legality of it. Another thing is do you honestly think they are going to let you ride off after being told to stay there, I would think that would just give them a reason to taze you and arrest you for resisting arrest.

My sincere appologies, I left out that the maner in which you chose to dress may be interepreted as being a member of an outlaw or motocycle gang. Thanks, no insult intended - just poor thought process there.

I agree you are free to dress as you wish just don't expect to not take some flack for it as you are not main stream in any way. Not that is right just the way it is. Much like low pants, NFL jersy and bling might draw undue attention in the city.

Cheers - no harm meant.

reply to post by Golf66


none taken

No harm no foul

The irony of the original post/poster is overwhelming.
Of course he/she must be coming from a spoon-feed understanding of what they can and can't do to "Joe Public".
An officer is usually the most misguided and manipulative person in a confrontation.
The officer who posted this doesn't even understand what rights you have! I had to cringe when I saw people thanking this pitiful so called help or advice. But feel free to continue to lick some boots.
or
Take initiative and arm yourself with true knowledge of your rights.

God help the OP!

Originally posted by jeh2324
The irony of the original post/poster is overwhelming.
Of course he/she must be coming from a spoon-feed understanding of what they can and can't do to "Joe Public".
An officer is usually the most misguided and manipulative person in a confrontation.
The officer who posted this doesn't even understand what rights you have! I had to cringe when I saw people thanking this pitiful so called help or advice. But feel free to continue to lick some boots.
or
Take initiative and arm yourself with true knowledge of your rights.

God help the OP!

Please take a moment to explain where he is wrong.

It would be more helpful than this simple disagrement that seems bitter to me - perhaps based on bad experiance with the law?

Citing references would be cool too..

Good evening everyone.
On my way home tonight I saw a police car staked out under an overpass with all lights on the vehicle out. The car was obviously being hidden from oncoming cars. It was what I have heard referred to as a speed trap. My question is... isnt entrapment against the law? Aside from that, its extremely dangerous for a car to pop out from under an overpass and flick their lights on. This has got to be illegal. Where is the appropriate place to report a patrol car that is actively participating in entrapment.

Secondly, has anyone noticed that there are many more unmarked state troopers patrolling the highways? Ive seen many situations where a car that you could easily mistake for joe public's sedan flies up the side of me with lights flashing like crazy. To be specific, they are usually Dodge Chargers, Chevy Imapala's, Durangos, ive even seen some clunkers (ultra tricky). Isnt this also illegal? Police should have to remain clearly identifiable. Why be sneaky so much anyway. I hate sneaks. Im actually nervous because if one of these fake police cars gets behind me and puts on lights, I WILL NOT pull over until I get to my home. F that. Ive seen too many Unsolved Mystery episodes and I know better. Enough with the undercover vehicles lately. Its gotta be against the constitution or something.

Thought of some more questions..
Is it true that once a ticket is written it cant be thrown out or "cancelled".
I find this hard to believe. You're telling me that if you just rip up the ticket and say ok get on your way, that there is a mean enough, big enough toolbox in this world (your superior) that hes gonna ream you out for letting someone go? Cmon, even the police officers with the worst Napoleon complex cant be THAT gay for written law, can they? Someone really will keep all those tickets accountable for and get mad if an officer ust rips it up because he used his judgement and let the perp go?

I want to reinforce what the OP said with a little anecdote of my own.

Some years back, when driving a truck for a living, I had requested time off to attend my childrens' awards day at school. My company had a very hard time getting proper loads to get me to the area, but they finally managed. Then the delivery was going to run longer than was expected. They gave me authorization to bobtail (drive without a trailer) to and from my childrens' school, about 200 miles round trip.

On the way back, I broke a traffic law. I won't go into what happened, but suffice it to say that I was thinking about how well the kids had done and missed a sign... of course, there was a cop sitting there watching me. I pulled to the shoulder before he could warm up his lights, cursing myself for being so inattentive. I hit the 4-ways and stepped out of the truck to meet him. This is the conversation as best as I can remember:

Me (approaching cop): Officer, I am sorry! My mind was a hundred miles away!

Cop: Mmmm-hmmm. (whips out his ticket book)

Me: I deserve a ticket, sir, but is there any way you could overlook this? (cop looks at me) I just got special permission from my company to attend my kids' awards day ceremony, and if I go back with a ticket...

Cop (cutting me off): Let me guess. You'll get fired.

Me (surprised): Fired? I doubt that... but it might make them not be so willing to work with me the next time, don't you think?.

Cop is silent a minute, then: I'm going to make this a warning. Keep your mind on the road.

Me: Thank you, officer!

I deserved that ticket, and if I hadn't been honest with him, I would have gotten it. He had every intention of writing me up for as much as he could when he stopped the car; you could see it in his eyes. One word or gesture of anger or a mention of my 'rights' would have been enough to make him go through with that intent. But by admitting my obvious guilt, explaining myself, apologizing, and being honest (most drivers typically use the excuse "I'll get fired!" to try and talk their way out of a ticket), he showed me some mercy.

The side of the road is never the place to start a fight. If you want to start a fight, do so in the court, with a good lawyer by your side. There you have a chance to speak openly and freely with any accusations; on the roadside you are facing someone who is well-armed, well-trained, and believes what they are doing is legal, whether it is or not.

Always pick your fights.

TheRedneck

In my limited experience...Take it for the two cents it is worth:

Addressing a law enforcement officer as "officer" shows respect for his profession, and is usually reciprocated by the officer. They know their place, as they know yours.

Addressing a law enforcement officer as "sir" puts you at a disadvantage, and shows your deference to the individual and any superiority complex that individual may harbor. That's when the teeth are shown. Of course, this is only true of the bad eggs. However, you never know which one you have....

Don't give them that advantage. They are civilians, as you are. They should treat you with the same respect that you treat them. Obviously, if you talk down to them, they will reciprocate in a commensurate manner. If you show that you are an equal, they will similarly show parity (unless they really are an a$$). They are public employees. They need to treat the public as they themselves would expect to be treated.

They have a job to do. Don't make it tough on them. If they messed with you doing your job, you'd be pissed too.
Just keep it civil and non-confrontational. They'd rather be having a quiet night too (again, unless they are an a$$ - in which case, keep to the guidelines shown by the OP).

Dehumanizing a profession based on the minority is wrong. There's good and bad. The bad deserve to have IA all over them. The good deserve to go home after a quiet shift and kiss their wife and kids.
Keep it real out there.

As mentioned many times, if you are arrested don't say a thing. Their job is to get a conviction. They have the 'right' to use any means - fair or foul - to achieve this. They may lie to you. You may not lie to them.
Saying nothing is the best policy all around. Their responsibility is to secure revenue from lawbreakers for the city/state. The judge you may face has exactly the same responsibility as he/she is paid from the same coffers.
"Guilty, or not guilty" is very, very different from "Innocent, or not innocent." Guess which one is used in courts for pleas?

reply to post by Golf66

This is one of those how much of a battle do you want to have over a principle at that particular time - at the stop he has chosen the field.

SUN TZU will tell you (paraphrasing) - Give ground when you must to to create a false sense of security n one's foe only to exploit the advantage later on your terms and on ground of your chosing.

Out there on the road he is nervous, and you are likely headed elswhere (loose loose situation) - cool off, make the logical complaint in writing to the correct offical and you will get a response I assure you.

I don't disagree with what needs to be done in that situation..
As I said, I have done it myself, but it doesn't detract from the fact that we shouldn't feel the need to act that way..