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Originally posted by dontreally
So you dont think cutting yourself induces a change in consciousness?
I can assure you, it does.
That was the entire basis in this ancient pagan practice.
I dont have to specify WHICH group did it, because it was universal. Any method that can alter ones consciousness had been experimented with and utliized by the ancient cultists.
Sex was another one.
As was eating the raw flesh or blood; whether of an animal or in some sick cases, a human being; as the rites of dionysus, bacchus, sabazios, osiris in Egypt and many others etc show.
I also believe this is quite popular in Hinduism with 'Kali' the goddess of death.
Lets get a consensus from all REASONABLE men.
Lets first show them the practice, and than explain the symbolic significance of it. Circumcision is done on the organ of the body assiocated with life - the phallus in kabbalah is Yesod, which means 'foundation'. it establishes ones relationship with reality. All ones vitality passes through it; whether psychologically, or physically (in coitus).
Circumcizing it signifies removing a thick, desensitizing husk which spiritually speaking means removing the husk of the heart; of the emotions.
In Kabbalah, Yesod is the lowest extemity of the 6 emotive sefirot. It therefore clarifies emotion and refines it for more spiritual purposes. Its a very noble and dignified practice. The fact that that it seeks to BETTER our spiritual condition, and is thoughtful, and Morally responsible should warrant the admiration of all thoughtful men; Jewish or not. Also, this is done among muslims aswell; partly. In the Jewish rite the mucus membrane that covers the corona is also removed. This signifies the subtleties of emotion. The main foreskin is the blatant, obvious emotional characteristics that need to be corrected. The less obvious mucus membrane are those subtle emotional aspects that need rectification.
Now i dont even think i need to comprare this beautiful and divine practice with slashing your forehead and running around frenzied. Whatever reason that can be given for it will still pale in decency in comparison.
No.. Not Haredi. Have you heard of Bnei Noach? Im basically a gentile with an admiration for Judaism.
Yes. thats a practice. its done to help stop the bleeding.
To even think of anything perverse about it just reveals your own sordid mind. Its an 8 day old baby. The parents and many other friends and family are around. Its done for hygenic reasons. Thats all.
Further, back to the topic of circumcision, that is not unique to Jewish people; it is in fact a fairly common rite of manhood in all sorts of "pagan" cultures as well; Australian Aborigines for instance. Read your Torah, back to Abraham. He circumcises himself, and he's eighty years old at that time (I think he's eighty, he's pretty up there). This is an act that's bound to hurt like crazy; and since he is doing so as a ritual offering to his god, it's safe to guess that he had entered an altered state while making a sacrifice of his own flesh and blood - LOTS of blood. Except it would be spilling over his scrotum and legs, rather than his face.
if you're going to rant and rave about "Paganism" in Islam and Christianity, and your examples are altered states of mind and bloodletting, well, then you're again, really, really ignorant of Judaism, as well. It's founded on older "Pagan" religions, embraced many "Pagan" elements (including the main god, the Indo-European mountain god that became YHWH) and continues bloodletting and altered awareness.
There is also the stated intent by some in the Jewish community to renew the practice of animal sacrifices if the Temple Mount returns to Jewish control.
Including group chanting and ritual body movements while singing from a holy scroll, evidently.
I hear Jews have sex. And that there are even entries in the Talmud as to how to do it properly (Hint; ladies first!)
Seriously, there are lots of very wonderful books in the world about ethnography, ancient mythologies, the history and religions of Rome, Greece, and Egypt, and all of them say you're dead wrong. GO find a few and educate yourself.
You're confusing real-life Hinduism with that scene from "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom"
Two former students of Trungpa, John Steinbeck IV and his wife, wrote a sharply critical memoir of their lives with him in which they claim that, in addition to alcohol, Trungpa used $40,000 a year worth of coc aine, and used Seconal to come down from the coc aine. The coc aine use, say the Steinbecks, was kept secret from the wider Vajradhatu community
Of course, odds are there would be very few Jewish men who have any sort of firsthand experience with these facts, so the myth that the foreskin is "desensitizing" could have an explanation in that.
Except that "beautiful and divine practice" is still mutilating a baby's penis and then performing fellatio on him.
So at least now i'm no longer so confused about why a Jewish guy knows nothing about Judaism.
Except I didn't mention anything relating to perversity; that's all you, I'm afraid.
Originally posted by JDofENGLAND
reply to post by dontreally
I'm a big Israel fan people try to say that muslims are indigenous but people conveniently forgot who occupied the land in bible times.
Originally posted by Truth01
Whatever! You can gab all you like about this, but Israel won't ever fall, it has been written and when a war does occur it will be His return.
Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by sk0rpi0n
You have to understand the themes which underly these metaphors.
They are simply metaphors. Assyria and Egypt in Hebrew are Ashur and Mitzrayim.
Ultimately, there are more people than just these 3. To exclude everyone else would completely unlike the G-d of the Jews, who loves each and every one of his creations. Thus, what does Ashur and Mitzrayim mean? The way to find meaning in this and all biblically ambiguous verses is to look at the name. Ashur is like osher - wealth, or richness, and Mitzrayim is related to the word mitzarim, limitations. thus, we have abundance - wealth and riches, and Limitation - poverty, or pain (Tzar means pain)....
So i think the meaning of that verse has to do with mans relationship with abundane and limitation, and how they both must coexist with the soul - Israel, in its proper proporation.
Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by ironfalcon
How are so sure all of this is true? How do you know Mark Twain actually said that?
Last I've checked by the 1930's there were 500K Arabs in Palestine, how's that possible?
The Innocents Abroad, or The New Pilgrims' Progress is a travel book by American author Mark Twain published in 1869 which humorously chronicles what Twain called his "Great Pleasure Excursion" on board the chartered vessel Quaker City (formerly USS Quaker City) through Europe and the Holy Land with a group of American travelers in 1867.
Stirring scenes like these occur in this valley no more. There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent—not for thirty miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles, hereabouts, and not see ten human beings.
We traversed some miles of desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds—a silent, mournful expanse, wherein we saw only three persons—Arabs
Here were evidences of cultivation—a rare sight in this country—an acre or two of rich soil studded with last season's dead corn-stalks of the thickness of your thumb and very wide apart. But in such a land it was a thrilling spectacle. Close to it was a stream, and on its banks a great herd of curious-looking Syrian goats and sheep were gratefully eating gravel. I do not state this as a petrified fact—I only suppose they were eating gravel, because there did not appear to be any thing else for them to eat.
This morning, during breakfast, the usual assemblage of squalid humanity sat patiently without the charmed circle of the camp and waited for such crumbs as pity might bestow upon their misery. [....] They reminded me much of Indians, did these people.[...]These people about us had other peculiarities, which I have noticed in the noble red man, too: they were infested with vermin, and the dirt had caked on them till it amounted to bark.
Originally posted by dontreally
So you have Hadriani Relandi, Mark Twain, all substantiating jewish claims that the arabs had no appreciable settlement in the land...and yet the world STILL ignores this evidence.....