Ophiuchus, the 13th Zodiac Sign

Originally posted by Alexander1111
reply to post by 13th Zodiac

 

Yes, an unfortunate wording was the case, but it was a good opportunity for a brief etymological analysis. By the way, it is interesting to note that the Rod of Asclepius does have a serpent going upwards around it hence the connection between Asclepius (god of medicine) and the designation "ophiuchus".

Fortunately, I still remain a Virgo. I was born at the end of the sign (18th of September) and now I am at the beginning of it.

Alexander1111, a Sun Sign does NOT define a person. Both your Ascendant & Moon Signs are more important than your Sun Sign. I use the Sidereal Zodiac.

"Sun signs are a nonsensical parody of real astrology. Real astrology uses a map of the heavens calculated for the exact time, date and place of a person's birth. It's called a natal horoscope, and it plots the position of the sun, moon and planets — not just the sign occupied by the sun." (quote from Richard Nolle, Astrologer)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by Vinniejster
Is Ophiuchus the 13th sign?
No. It’s just a constellation. Even the founding text for Astrology (Tetrabiblos by Claudius Ptolemy written 170 AD only mentions 12 signs.) A few astrologers who practice the controversial sidereal (consellation-based) zodiac use it as the 13th zodiacal sign – and by a few we mean about 1 percent.

Do not worry about the "NEW" zodiac sign.
It only applies to you if you follow Eastern Astrology, Sidereal Astrology
People forget there are various branches of astrology. Most people in Western Culture follow the Zodiac astrology which follows the constellation of the sun and moon. Sidereal astrology follows the constellation of the stars

“Ophiuchus has nothing to do with Astrology,” said expert astrologer Rick Levine. “It’s not an Astrology issue. It has to do with the stars -- it’s not a sign, it’s a constellation.”

Vinniejster, I would say that MUCH less than 1% of astrologers in the West follow Walter Berg and his 13 constellations based on the IAU zodiac. The IAU zodiac was never meant to be used for divinatory purposes. And was arbitrarily aligned with the 1875 northern Vernal Equinox when the Sun was in Sidereal Pisces. Just bizarre.

Most astrologers in the West still use the Tropical Zodiac (unfortunately). It's like pulling teeth to get them to switch to the more accurate Sidereal Zodiacs. I prefer the Hindu Sidereal Zodiac with it's 12 signs and millennia of observation to support it's USEFULLNESS.

My ATS thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by Alethea

Snakes are always assumed to be "the bad guys" and sometimes they are. But in the case of St. Patrick, this is a story of domination by might...convert or die...quell the opposition. Who were the snakes? It is supposed that the snakes represent the Pelagians. And why did the Catholic church find the Pelagian "heresy" such a threat?

Alethea, snakes have NOT always been considered the "bad guys." Even in ancient cultures in the West, the serpent has been a symbol of Wisdom & Renewal. In India, it's been the symbol of the sacred Kundalini energy that lies coiled at the base of the psychic spine. As for what the Christian churches did with the snake ....

SeaWind

Originally posted by mutly
I have been hearing this a lot recently. who made this decision? I was unaware of a ruling council of astrologers. or do they have committees like the ones who told us not to think of pluto as a planet anymore?

SeaWind: This is NOT about a ruling council of astrologers. About 30 - 40 years, a couple of astrologers introduced the idea of using the IAU (International Astronomical Union) zodiac of 13 constellations, instead of the Tropical Zodiac or any of the other Sidereal Zodiacs. This never took off (except in Japan). The IAU zodiac has nothing to do with MEANING based on OBSERVATION over a long period of time. It was NEVER intended for divinatory use.

Compare this with the Hindu Sidereal Zodiac which has millennia of OBSERVATION behind it. And which has proved to have PRACTICAL uses.

I am not much of an astrologer, I admit, but i have studied what info I could find in the past. It seems to me that the people in the past who first noticed these things and wrote them down used what was in their sky at the time. some even seemed to know that with time the time keeper they were using would be off. others used different star clusters as time keepers but they all wrote basically the same thing.

so i could see how if you think the sun actually rising in a cluster of stars shines some kind of magical energy down how this might be an issue, but I believe its more of an earth based thing and the ancients used the stars to mark their times. Today we use their writings. i think you could double the number or signs and write a bunch of new books to sell, but the basic info would be exactly the same.

SeaWind: Yes, you are right about MEANING accrued over a VERY long period of OBSERVATION.

Has anyone found how this was supposed to be news yet? every article i read or blurb on the evening news mentions it, but doesn't actually say anything. almost like they are trying to say "if you believe in this stuff look how wrong you are." can astrologers now be sued for not using the new updated zodiac as issued by the fed or something? or is someone just trying to sell a new book? there have been books and articles out before tho without completly taking over the media.

SeaWind: I think the media is using this as a distraction from more important things going on in the world. Walter Berg wrote a book on 13 sign astrology based on the IAU zodiac -- decades ago.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by JoseChung

And what is his take on the 'new' zodiac sign Ophiuchus that has set the Internet on fire? It's an old hoax originating from a science fiction novel, he says.

"This is an old hoax. Historically, Ophiuchus has never been listed as a constellation in the sidereal zodiac. It is a constellation out there, but it’s off the ecliptic (that is, it’s not along the path of the Sun through the sky). I’ve read that Ptolemy mentions it in his literature as an off-zodiac constellation, meaning that the Sun never travels through it. In any event, there are some two dozen constellations that touch the ecliptic; but the sidereal zodiac uses just 12 of them.”

So you'll have to google : Astrologers strike back: New zodiac sign Ophiuchus is an old hoax

JoseChung, Ophiuchus is NOT a hoax. The qualities of Ophiuchus, the serpent bearer, have been long included under the sign of Scorpio. Astrologers have used some of the stars of the Ophiuchus constellation: Yed Prior, Marfik, Han, Sabik, Ras Alhague, Kelb Alrai, and Sinistra.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by Hemisphere

Originally posted by Archangelelijah

There are still only 12 star signs with this one overlapping the other two. People who are born within this date of star sign Ophiuchus have split personalities.

You've touched on one of my earlier points and questions. Why don't all of the stars and constellations affect us? Why just these 12 or 13? Are there not others that overlap the 12 widely accepted signs? Are we not under all of the stars in the universe?

That's a very good question, Hemisphere. You have to understand one basic thing about Astrology, it would never have survived unless there was a PRACTICAL USE for astrological knowledge. The Hindus use their astrology for selecting marriage partners, selecting a time to start an important endeavor, etc. The 12 sign Hindu Sidereal Zodiac has existed for MILLENNIA.

By looking at the sky thru the 12 sign grid of the Sidereal Zodiac, they were able to accrue experience -- a certain celestial phenomena appeared and certain things happened to individuals and groups. This correlation between OBSERVATION of certain celestial phenomena and human experience accrued over thousands of years. Enough experience accrued where skilled astrologers could PREDICT the likely outcome of an endeavor or a marriage.

Even Ptolemy had about 2,000 years of collective human experience supporting his conclusions. Ptolemy was NOT wrong! His zodiac worked because in his lifetime the Tropical & Sidereal Zodiacs were almost exactly the same. The fatal mistake made by Western astrologers is that they did NOT adjust their zodiac for Precession.

In 1930, the International Astronomical Union decided to align their 13 constellation zodiac to the 1875 northern Vernal Equinox. Astronomers have NO interest in the divinatory uses of their zodiac. The demarcation of the constellations they use are arbitrary. The IAU recognizes at least 88 constellations.

Using Stellarium to look at the sky is just fine, but it does NOT provide data that can be used in a PRACTICAL divinatory way.

So getting back to your original question, even if we are affected by everything in the sky, there is NO WAY to attach MEANING to the celestial phenomena unless a MATRIX exists to make raw astro data coherent,

The matrix that provides MEANING consists of a 12 sign Sidereal Zodiac that has MILLENNIA of OBSERVATION supporting its MEANING. Is any of this getting thru to anyone here?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by reddsite
I think tropical zodiac should be presevred like a history book and new more accurate sidereal astrology come out. As far as being a libra i was and probly always will be cause i was born that way, but sorry tropical astrologers things in nature change even the stars.

Reddsite, I'm a Siderealist. But the Tropical Zodiac is NOT worthless. You need to pay attention to it for anything that depends on the seasons or "tides" of nature.

I do NOT think the Tropical Zodiac is useful for Natal readings or prediction.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

reply to post by SeaWind

So getting back to your original question, even if we are affected by everything in the sky, there is NO WAY to attach MEANING

e

Sure there is...but it is a personal path for each person. The Spirit of life, the IAM, is within us all. Thee knows all man made ideas and all cycles of nature, before each incarnation of a body. Everything is energy...and we as being energy ourselves, can align to all things around us and gain a harmony, meaning, resonation, deeper understanding....through all things. All things provide us with a deeper personal understanding of life and our place in life. Finding any meaning of Spirit incarnating into a certain family, through a certain order and cycle of the cosmos, into a certain culture or society...can be something we all can do. Seeking within, we all can find this connection to the 'all' that we are of.

Someone can try to explain what God is to me...but I found out I learned more when I sought Thee for myself outside of all books and all words of other men. Someone can try to tell me of what the cycles of nature can teach me or what energy the cosmos align to me....but I found I I learned much more when I sought it all through the Kingdom within me. The Spirit is a part of all things...as the Spirit in us seeks through other avenues of its expressions, like stars or spheres of energy in the sky....it can off a deeper connection for each us of, to the cycles of the Universe and our place in them.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

Originally posted by 13th Zodiac

Originally posted by Alexander1111
reply to post by 13th Zodiac

 

Ophiuchus (οφιούχος) does not translate as healer from Greek. It actually means the one who bears snakes (serpent-holder).

όφις = snake + -ούχος (signifies possession, from the verb έχω = to have)

Yes quiet true ! Also translates to holder of the snake or serpent or serpens or serpentes .Just how literal would you like to take it .While that is the most literal translantion, that is not the role of the archytype which is the Healer .Prehaps I am at fault in the way I worded myself .Research Asclepius/Ophiucus they are one in the same .

Its a opportunity to heal.....within you.

Its a choice.

Control/become master of the snake/animal in you...or release it and release chaos.

This sign is about a choice. As you chose to control the snake you choose to help the world heal. If you release chaos...how are you helping the world heal.

This is a very compassionate gesture. Also, very interesting. Maybe you could expand on the what a world with 6 Billion 'healed' people would look like? Business as usual, just with no war? Restructured society? An end to hunger, legislation, military; police?


Regards

reply to post by Abovo

This is a very compassionate gesture. Also, very interesting. Maybe you could expand on the what a world with 6 Billion 'healed' people would look like? Business as usual, just with no war? Restructured society? An end to hunger, legislation, military; police?

There are opportunities to see how each of us is a part of a larger whole. We as individuals, all effect and influence what is around us. Our actions and behaviors, effect others and effect the nature. Becoming aware that all things you do, can cause reaction/response from other people as well as nature...puts us all as responsible 'beings' amongst a much larger 'one' being...the Universe. We each play our own part in 'how the world goes round'....and the more aware people become of being a part of a much larger being, the more responsible we will all become in what we do.

As we learn to control our impulses and think critically about repercussions of certain behaviors, choices, and actions...as we look to see how our choices effect the future, we may use the energy within for more of a harmonic life amongst all other life.

It would be great if we could all understand such deep impacts in this generation...but such realizations are personal to each of us to discover and then bring the will to 'change' our personal ways. Only after the tipping of the scale of many more people understanding such on a personal level first...can we then think about global changes occurring in a more harmonic way.

What you do effects someone, somewhere, somehow. We often dont consider this in daily life because we are too caught up in 'moments' of present thinking, we are impulsive, we 'act' in many ways to get what we want in the 'now'. This will have repercussions....we will reap what we sow...not only individually, but globally.

On a personal level...we can all look to the great stories about 'healers' and those that have 'released chaos'....and in them we see a opportunity to look in a mirror and see before us lays a personal choice of our own being. As your actions take on a more harmonic degree amongst other life around you...you are not only healing your own soul....your effect will cause a more positive reaction/response of others around you...offering others something to look at, an opportunity, a mirror to look in, a 'moment' to observe the example they see and maybe even be inspired enough to become a example themselves.

Globally we have so long to go...but individually, we are evolving in a more harmonic way, many are noticing that their choices, effect others and they have empathy for others and try to live in a way that does not bring or add hardship or 'chaos' to the lives of others.

Some will of course still let the snake rule them....while others will learn to be the master of the impulsive nature we humans have.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Abovo

 

This is a very compassionate gesture. Also, very interesting. Maybe you could expand on the what a world with 6 Billion 'healed' people would look like? Business as usual, just with no war? Restructured society? An end to hunger, legislation, military; police?

There are opportunities to see how each of us is a part of a larger whole. We as individuals, all effect and influence what is around us. Our actions and behaviors, effect others and effect the nature. Becoming aware that all things you do, can cause reaction/response from other people as well as nature...puts us all as responsible 'beings' amongst a much larger 'one' being...the Universe. We each play our own part in 'how the world goes round'....and the more aware people become of being a part of a much larger being, the more responsible we will all become in what we do.

As we learn to control our impulses and think critically about repercussions of certain behaviors, choices, and actions...as we look to see how our choices effect the future, we may use the energy within for more of a harmonic life amongst all other life.

It would be great if we could all understand such deep impacts in this generation...but such realizations are personal to each of us to discover and then bring the will to 'change' our personal ways. Only after the tipping of the scale of many more people understanding such on a personal level first...can we then think about global changes occurring in a more harmonic way.

What you do effects someone, somewhere, somehow. We often dont consider this in daily life because we are too caught up in 'moments' of present thinking, we are impulsive, we 'act' in many ways to get what we want in the 'now'. This will have repercussions....we will reap what we sow...not only individually, but globally.

On a personal level...we can all look to the great stories about 'healers' and those that have 'released chaos'....and in them we see a opportunity to look in a mirror and see before us lays a personal choice of our own being. As your actions take on a more harmonic degree amongst other life around you...you are not only healing your own soul....your effect will cause a more positive reaction/response of others around you...offering others something to look at, an opportunity, a mirror to look in, a 'moment' to observe the example they see and maybe even be inspired enough to become a example themselves.

Globally we have so long to go...but individually, we are evolving in a more harmonic way, many are noticing that their choices, effect others and they have empathy for others and try to live in a way that does not bring or add hardship or 'chaos' to the lives of others.

Some will of course still let the snake rule them....while others will learn to be the master of the impulsive nature we humans have.

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply. Who knew the addition of a 13th sign would engender such great personal responsibility.


I'm in substantial agreement with the progression you've outlined. One small detail is missing however - and that is systemic restructuring. The current social system is terribly flawed and does not appear to be conducive to the progressive idea's associated with Ophiuchus. It is not easy to foresee how such a lofty ideal could materialize in socio-economic systems across the globe.

I'm certain we will get there just curious as to the 'how'.


Thanks

Originally posted by SeaWind

By looking at the sky thru the 12 sign grid of the Sidereal Zodiac, they were able to accrue experience -- a certain celestial phenomena appeared and certain things happened to individuals and groups. This correlation between OBSERVATION of certain celestial phenomena and human experience accrued over thousands of years. Enough experience accrued where skilled astrologers could PREDICT the likely outcome of an endeavor or a marriage.

Even Ptolemy had about 2,000 years of collective human experience supporting his conclusions. Ptolemy was NOT wrong!

SeaWind, thanks for that response. I have a rather challenging follow up if you will, related to the sections quoted above.

First, prognosticators using the Zodiacs or other means want correct predictions. I think that if one were to play astrological matchmaker to a couple that had a failed relationship, that couple would not be added to your list of happy clientele. Just like the wedding photographer that misses a particularly memorable moment for one couple. He's not going to be using them as a reference for prospective clients. Should we think that the ancients were all that different from us?

It's human nature to lean toward whatever direction you deem to be positive. I would think that 2,000 years of prognostication is built on leaning in the prescribed direction and then when the oddball situation arises it is downplayed in various ways. Also, those seeking direction from an astrologer would tend to believe that such a person could guide them in the correct direction. If not, why go? So you have people seeking signs and wanting to believe and others that see and interpret signs. We have modern astrologers in this thread telling us that signs and their related tendencies and messages must be interpreted by the individuals. And so it's like the recent KIA commercials with the hamsters. "I can go with this or I can go with that." Neither is wrong it's my choice. If I choose correctly I am in some way in touch with the stars and if I choose wrongly I am unenlightened or in some way not ready for the message.

We see here on ATS that histories are among the things most challenged in conspiracies. What actually happened? What were the true numbers? What was the original intent of the action? I would tend to think that Ptolemy had about 2,000 years of not "collective" but "selective" human experience supporting his conclusions. And so not so much celestial influence but more likely "the power of positive thinking" or something in that vein. Supported of course by tides, when the geese fly, the first frost, when to plant what and other natural occurrences that have an apparent celestial connection as opposed to are Dick and Jane compatible?

What am I missing?

reply to post by LeoVirgo


If looking at the EAST HORIZON ONLY(if looking other directions stars apear to do somehting else , So EAST only.) the zodiac wheel(circle of animals) Look as if a 2dimensional Ferris wheel spinning counter clockwise from the right to left, this spins everynight like a counterclockwise clock 24 hours, You can only see the top half of the ferris wheel, if you only stay looking Eastern horizon can see your sign move in its little chair startin rise from right horizon to top of ferris wheel then fall to left and fall under horizon all in 24 hours, they sit in 30degree pizza- slice spaces called Houses, now if Aries moves forward to 30 degree season House April 21- May 21 when sun rises into that chair by season, completely, then all the animals are like gettin off the ride and getting on a new chair, then Aries would be in the 2nd house. Giving new house traits. Also planets were assigned starting 5th sun 4th house moon the lights because warmest longest days, then mercury further down the wheel each side couldnt be seen movin in sky more one place sun, venus couldn be seen moving more 2 spaces of sun placed two spaces down, then colder planets placed further downwheel on each side last saturn coldest houses 10,11 oposite planet sun house 5 so planets dont change spots . So on each side wheel planets asigned further from sun planet house 5. They cannot be moved. Also signs not only got traits from planets but also House season, so this would change traits for animals also, for instant house 1 is Ascendant cardinal-Angularl bringing in spring, and house two mutable or succedent. So last if sun is seen rising in East into your animal and pizza slice house then thats your sign. All of astrology would have to be revised for next generation. Zodiac goes by Eastern Horizon Diurnal star motion. Eastern wear sun comes up. And the houses do not change but are fixed by season. So dates not allowed to change, only signs could swith into a new chair. And houses start with March 21st. Ascending sign of Spring. So because astrology started with aries, if aries fully makes it to new house then all signs in new perfect 30 degree slice again as made by ancient starting with aries. Hint this wasnt the first time astrology had to be revised, but by earth progression 70 years per degree signs can actualy move over centuries into a new chair, but because fixed in season old zodiac good until 1st cardinal moves to fully into new house. Along time ago it say taurus was in first house in ancient Babylon, meaning this upcoming switch would be the third time, but also taurus constalation was written in caves by cave men and other ancient astrologies that date back from tower of babel and before flood times, so actualy could have switched chair close to four times. And libra was a new sign broke from scorpio and virgo, because set on equinox, so if keeping libra would no longer be a symbol of complete balance in season of 12/12 day. But i'll spare details. If person wants to see ferris wheel in motion can type up Estern Horizon DIURNAL Star Motion on you tube, and if looking towards east can see zodiac constelations on top half ferris wheel moving counter clockwise, and get better picture. P.S. MUST LOOK AT EASTERN HORIZON or view can change.

reply to post by SeaWind


Well sidereal doesnt work eithor, The houses are made by fixed 30 degree seasonal dates. If read my last relpy leovirgo , it would have to be a new tropical with signs changing chairs.

I like the new signs it makes a lot more sense now. But then again its for people born after 2003. So as long as your born before that which I'm assuming everyone is, your still the same sign. I think its good we are mixing science and the paranormal. Our ancestors did it so why can't we?

reply to post by Xiamara


I don't think it applies only to people born after 2003. I think that's just what they're saying, so that people who are already attached to their signs will stop freaking out about it.

My birthday is April 8, 1984. According to 'tropical' I am/was an Aries with Cancer Moon and Virgo Rising. I used that program Stellarium to see what the astronomical alignments were when I was born and it shows the Sun in Pisces and Moon in Gemini, which agrees more with Sidereal. On Stellarium, it also looks like the constellation Hydra was ascending on the eastern horizon at the time I was born, with Leo being the nearest ascending 'sign'.

Anyway, I think we're just being told "don't worry about it unless you were born after 2003", because kids that age are probably not attached to their 'sign' yet.

born august 1st a leo, what am i now?

plz inform me. ty.

reply to post by reddsite


Thank you for your explaining...I do understand this is how the modern astrologist use the sky.

From my experience and spiritual path....I gained a much different perspective and all I can do is share that.

There are different levels of meaning and a meaning or understanding from anything outside of us can be very personal. I can seek meaning with my intellect and find a understanding...I can seek meaning with my personality and find a different understanding...I can seek meaning through my desires and fears and find different understandings...and I can try, to 'quiet' the mind, intellect, personality, personal desires and fears...and let the Holy Spirit, the IAM within me...guide to a more deeper offering of a meaning or understanding that will help me as a being grow in Spirit.

The IAM that is within me, also manifested into every star, every planet, and every man that ever named or observed the cosmos and gave the cosmos groups that we now call constellations. The path of understanding and meaning is one thing....the path of simply connecting, observing, being 'one' with all things, is another. So I would call the path of seeking the cosmic energies a multiple folding of sorts. I dont agree with the whole 'assigning traits' really...but I do find some worth there for starting grounds in ones life and direction.

Seeking 'purpose' in life...is a personal path. I can not tell you what your purpose is for life nor can you tell me mine. If we try to do such, we will limit eachother and neither of us will find the deeper path that awaits us through personal seeking.

The constellations that man has made with the stars....is now a part of the universal mind. This alone has many paths of learning about the mind of man and the cycles we explore. I will add more to this soon when I have more time.

I will say, the cosmos can take us way back into the past to learn things, can take us deep within our own being, and can take us to a 'oneness' of all things.

reply to post by reddsite


P>S> this an added post to my last message and a reply back at LEOVIRGO.

But also as i was explaining it is a bit more complicated than that. The stars of the 12 zodaic are seperated in the celestial spere areound the sun in 12 sections. So in one month a prominant zodiac is apparent an the type of starts that can be seen in the eastern sky, as the earth is going around the sun may rise into a new grouping of stars. Each month will see a new prominant constaletion which is also located where sun will rise. A more correct way of explaining is in March 21st see a sign like pisces jumping out of the water as new prominant Zodiac of seasonnal month , then next month a new prominant zodiac, then the next month see a new prominant sign, 1 year trip, etc. But day to day the stars do spin counter clockwise in a 24hour period. And only see constealations back side of the earth and not towards sun so if earth in june cannot see winter stars, in winter cannot see summer stars etc.But Zodiac secton by 12 and suppose to match month to month seasonal chart. But with earth progression it would seem as if seasonal marked lines that fixed, that a new Zodiac is seen to becoming prominant in a new month which is like a constalation moving a 2100 year trip into a new house. Which would change character traits of signs. So if Ferbuary 20-March 20 was prominant Pisces, in House 12 of ice and cage and ruing planet & Jupiter neptune,Pisces is moving into March 21-April 20 house 1 life and self and planet mars. If Astrologers revised this now, a new chart starting with Pisces in House one, would be fundamental as the ancients used it and tropical and be a good for the next 2100 years for a new generation. But peopl would have to be able to accept the idea of signs changing houses and writing new astrology for children; but if they do, then it will be fundementally correct astrology good for next generation. So in a new chart Pisces in house 1 Aries in 2 Taurus in 3, etc.It wouldnt be that hard to do, but astrologers i dont think want to change and also may not want to write books for kids. But also this change will not fully happen for at about 140 years, but still time to revise it, and also it is probably inevitable that the new generation if keeping astrology wants an accurate fundamental astrology, despite what our generation wants. But i also think it is only fair that as this art was handed down to us fundamentally by season and prominant star* in month, that people should do the same for children of next generation or else this art could be lost

But then there is a second argument, that maybe the signs haven't moved houses but the earth moved. And when made in ancient couldnt see mercury past sun sign one space ,Venus past sun sign 2 spaces; is that still true, and what if seasons have changed and maybe spring is supose to start later, etc. And if signs first established in Babylon have signs moved there too, or seasons. I am not quite confidant or sure how this could be revised to be as fundamental as it once was but would be cool if people could fix it. And theorieticaly, if Earth has not changed seasons and nighttime/daytime the same since 2100 years ago then how could we be seeing a new prominant Zodiac for the season month. Theoryeticaly it could be an error in science or our calender overtime, which would mean spring is actually suppose to start April 18th, and it would be alot easier to just season dates then to revise all of astrology. it would be like the earth is missing 24 days somewhere and slowed down its yearly trip around the sun sayin now spring doesnt start until April. Theoryetically A tilt that could effect our view of stars would also effect season or possible time of day.or warmer summers longer days etc. there is no proof of that.theoryetically If the earth is seeing the sign behind it then that would seem to effect more than just view of stars it would seem like. God only knows, maybe it could have also been little messed up by that big earth quake that happened in indonesia ocean few years back, but stars are suppose to tell us where earth is in its 30 degree axis around the sun, so if Aries is not starting springand almost a month off then that seems like earth slowed down or our calender is off. I dont know if i totalyy believe in earth progression or wobble, a wobble is just a wobble but not a months change of our view of stars.That woul be like saying earth could someday see winter stars in the summer on the other side of the sun and blocked by the sun. Can Goggle Zodiac Wheel to see Picture of Celestial Sphere and earths rotation.
.

Originally posted by Hemisphere

Originally posted by SeaWind

By looking at the sky thru the 12 sign grid of the Sidereal Zodiac, they were able to accrue experience -- a certain celestial phenomena appeared and certain things happened to individuals and groups. This correlation between OBSERVATION of certain celestial phenomena and human experience accrued over thousands of years. Enough experience accrued where skilled astrologers could PREDICT the likely outcome of an endeavor or a marriage.

Even Ptolemy had about 2,000 years of collective human experience supporting his conclusions. Ptolemy was NOT wrong!

SeaWind, thanks for that response. I have a rather challenging follow up if you will, related to the sections quoted above.

First, prognosticators using the Zodiacs or other means want correct predictions. I think that if one were to play astrological matchmaker to a couple that had a failed relationship, that couple would not be added to your list of happy clientele. Just like the wedding photographer that misses a particularly memorable moment for one couple. He's not going to be using them as a reference for prospective clients. Should we think that the ancients were all that different from us?

SeaWind: The Astrologer is consulted BEFORE the wedding. Yes, of course, if the marriage fails -- then the Astrologer who pronounced the couple compatible would be considered incompetent.

We have modern astrologers in this thread telling us that signs and their related tendencies and messages must be interpreted by the individuals. And so it's like the recent KIA commercials with the hamsters. "I can go with this or I can go with that." Neither is wrong it's my choice. If I choose correctly I am in some way in touch with the stars and if I choose wrongly I am unenlightened or in some way not ready for the message.

SeaWind: The only person on this thread who is saying this: "telling us that signs and their related tendencies and messages must be interpreted by the individuals" -- is NOT an Astrologer.

I would tend to think that Ptolemy had about 2,000 years of not "collective" but "selective" human experience supporting his conclusions. And so not so much celestial influence but more likely "the power of positive thinking" or something in that vein. Supported of course by tides, when the geese fly, the first frost, when to plant what and other natural occurrences that have an apparent celestial connection as opposed to are Dick and Jane compatible? [/quote]

SeaWind: So you're saying that an astrological reading becomes a "self-fulfilling prophecy." It might be that in certain cases. I believe an astrological reading is more than that and "positive thinking." But you're welcome to believe what you want.

Have you read my thread, "Your True Star Signs"?

www.abovetopsecret.com...


SeaWind

edit on 23-1-2011 by SeaWind because: add link