Ophiuchus, the 13th Zodiac Sign

reply to post by SeaWind

The Tropical Zodiac used by the West was NOT adjusted for Precession. IAU zodiac is used by those who follow "Walter Berg" astrology & the 13 signs. It appears he wrote as least one book on this, but I do not have anymore info on this at this time. The Sidereal Zodiac used by astrologers is SYMBOLIC and does NOT pretend to align perfectly with the constellations. ALL forms of astrology use correct astronomical info, but the ZODIACAL GRID used to see this data varies. Astrology is the "Sacred Art" of reading MEANING in the stars. With all due respect, Leo/Virgo discovered a few years ago that the Tropical Zodiac does NOT align with the constellations and has tried to "shout this from the rooftop." All well and good, the more people who know this the better, I do not use the Tropical. Unfortunately, Leo/Virgo is NOT an astrologer -- which is quickly apparent when you look at her thread "energies of the cosmos" -- and the info Leo/Virgo is throwing out is merely raw astronomical data. One of the most basic errors that is apparent in the Leo/Virgo thread is that L/V does NOT ask for birth place or birth time. These are ESSENTIAL pieces of info needed to erect a chart BECAUSE the chart is a picture of the sky taken the MOMENT you are born from the PLACE you are born. The MOST IMPORTANT signs are missing: the degree of the Ascendant (Rising Sign) and the Moon Sign. Both are MORE IMPORTANT than the Sun Sign. I started my ATS thread in an attempt to clear this up:

I really hate to call you out on this...but you called me out first.

First off....tropical astrology has no basis what so ever. It makes absolutely no sense to have imaginary segments in the sky and have those be fixed. Your sidereal, is based on tropical...its just moved a bit respecting precession.

I dont know of Walter Berg.

I discovered what I know...through my own observations. Not only observations of the sky...but my life. As I watched Mars conjunct Regulus, my 'real solar sign' that I had just discovered....I had a premonition of sorts that someone important was going to die. A couple weeks later, on that summer solstice of 2008...I sat by my mothers bedside while her kidneys began to fail her. She had the most other worldly experience for 9 hours...it really is one of the most detailed near death experiences ever. I even had a time slip of my age for about 2 months. The event, shook my world...and I still did not have faith enough to see it all for what it really was. Through further observations as well as her telling me things during her experience, of being told to tell me to keep watching my stars....I explored this thought further about the observing the 'real sky'. The observer...makes all the difference in the behavior of energy. I didnt just jump up and down at the whole fact that Astrology IS NOT PRACTICED TODAY AS IT ONCE WAS.....but I myself, experienced the effects of true observations.

Astronomy and Astrology used to go hand in hand. No one can deny this. The true practice of 'reading the spheres' or energy of the spheres was through TRUE OBSERVATION and NOT imaginary segments of the sky. If the ancients saw the Moon in Virgo....that position is what they used. If they saw Mars in Leo....this is what they used for 'seeing the energy'. TRUE OBSERVATION....

Your sidereal...is based off of a imaginary wheel.

With time...man wants to 'make things their own'...make things easier...and this is not always the best thing to do.

The reason the tropical signs are given their space....is due to the 'time' when this zodiac wheel was 'fixed' for during that time...Aries fell on Spring Equinox...ect ect. All of this is a modern day creation and is not how the ancients who started this whole astrology practice...used the sky for energies.

I dont think its hard to look at a thread with over 100 stars...and say its a mess that needs fixed. You feel it needs fixed because it goes against the way you have used the art. Similar, there are articles saying this effects no one till after 2009 or 20011 or whatever. There is absolutely no basis for those dates at all.

People dont like change....but you know what....we are the ones that changed the original way and took the practice of observing energy away from observing the real sky.

I know the power of all of this...through stepping out every night and observing the Universe, and the spheres. I know the worth of observing a new silver crescent moon in the sky after its time of being 'dark moon'....I know the worth of observing Saturn in the sky...and Mars, and watching Venus go from morning star to night and back to morning. I know there is strong energy of the part of the sky that is in the general direction of the galactic center and the anti galactic center. I claim that I am a amateur in such things...but at least I really observe them myself, at least I step out and meditate with the spheres.

Its no happenstance that the media brings all of this attention about Ophiuchus...something that has been highly ignored no matter what you claim that it has not....while Venus sits in Ophiuchus. We can observe this for ourselves...we can face Venus and face the direction of Ophiuchus. Soon...Venus will cross over the direction to the center of our galaxy...this will also, be of no happenstance for this time and the information that comes forth to the many.

We are one with this universe...the way astrology began...was entwined with astronomy. True Observation...of the Spheres and the Universe with them.

To me, its not about giving readings...its not about predictions...its about finding yourself amongst a much larger 'be-ing' with is everything. Knowing your place, amongst the Universe, the planet, mankind, the man made constellations, the spheres, all life. Its about realigning your inner compass....to what really surrounds you.

Im not trying and my thread did not try to 'add to any existing modern day practice' of the stars. I went through some strange synchronicity...and it took alot of things to prepare me for where those experiences were going to take me and lead me.

What would I be...to not follow where the compass leads me? What would I be...to keep following another man and what they keep telling me? Would I be true to myself, to keep what I experienced and discovered, to myself?

Lets just go ahead and hit this all in the head of the nail....for there is a much deeper path then what you or I could give anyone with 'one sign'....we are of all the signs...some hold things we have already learned, some hold things we refuse to face and work on. Look at them all...if your brave enough and ready enough...we will all stop making excuses on why we cant change, why we cant better ourselves, why we have anger in our personality, why we have short circuits...

The stars, are a very small stepping stone...in finding purpose in ones path. Some need those stepping stones to take them further till they can find that place in life where they can stand on their own, find the path less traveled....and seek alone, for themselves, what truth is. This...I did. And I only share..what I found. Not only in the observable sky....but in many other ways have I shared any thing I learn.

God forbid I dont follow the footsteps modern man has made...right? Well...through true observations...I discovered, the way man practices the art of reading the stars today...was not how man of old did it anyways.

Its funny that people assume....I must be following a path that another man has laid before me. Its funny I think, that as I walked my own path....many seem to also get resonation from it. I never expected that thread to get so many replies....but obviously....people like it.

Any practice of inner growth...should not be where another man is told by another man...what they life means, what their future holds. I find this a new blunder by mankind...with horoscopes ect. As we all step out on that alone path and observe the cosmos.....the cosmos, observes you back. There is nothing more powerful and humbling. Im trying to get man to step back out, observe for themselves, meditate on a alone path...and be brave enough to find the confidence within their own self to find their path.

Its about harmony and finding your place in that harmony and bringing that harmony into your life. You dont have to agree with they way my path has transpired and observation of the sky has effected that path...but I would never come on here...see something I disagree with (like your sidereal ways) and say things about it like you have done to me. In fact...I thanked your for your time that you are offering to others.

And you are right... I could of offered alot more by taking the place of ones birth to look at the ascending signs. I was only offering a general start for others...to seek things for themselves. I agree that at the time and place of ones birth...the sign on the east horizon has a impact....as well as the sign on the west. I was not out to do readings or offer someone all the things possible. I was out to simple offer positions of the spheres, at ones birth. I think I made this intent...very clear throughout the thread.

Its a shame you felt the need to attack...my intentions are not of ill will. I would not come forth offering something if I myself, had not found worth in it. And the information I give...is not rare data...I can give it down to the degree. What I give is precisely what can be found in the sky, at ones birth.

My best to you
LV

i heard that the sign represents imhotep, the Egyptian healer, his name means ( he who comes in peace) and its also a bit funny that the constellation is he who handles the serpent

Leo/Virgo: "First off....tropical astrology has no basis what so ever. It makes absolutely no sense to have imaginary segments in the sky and have those be fixed. Your sidereal, is based on tropical...its just moved a bit respecting precession... Your sidereal...is based off of a imaginary wheel."

SeaWind: This is really funny. You do not seem to realize that the zodiac used by the International Astronomical Union (IAU) is just as "imaginary" as the zodiacs used by the astrologers. “The Zodiac is an imaginary belt of the Sun's apparent path in the sky. Imaginary divisions of the zodiac represent, in astronomy, constellations, and in astrology, signs.”

“Dating back to the time when there was no clear distinction between astronomy and astrology, the zodiac is traditionally thought of as comprising a certain set of constellations. The constellations of both zodiacs are shown in the table below, including Ophiuchus, which was added to the astronomical zodiac by the International Astronomical Union in 1930 when it based its zodiac on the 1875 equinox.” (from Centipedia) The table is in the next post. Too bulky to be placed here.

I have posted a number of times, all zodiacs are symbolic. The symbolic meaning of the signs grew out of observation of astronomical phenomena over a long period of time. The beginning & ending of an astronomical constellation is EVEN MORE arbitrary than the beginning & ending of an astrological sign (which is based on meaning accrued over time).

Leo/Virgo: "I dont know of Walter Berg."

SeaWind: When I posted those questions I thought you might be a follower of Walter Berg, but then I looked at your "cosmic energies" thread and realized that you are NOT an astrologer. As I've posted to you before, you're welcome to create your own astrology. Some might recommend learning established Astrology before inventing one's own.

Leo/Virgo: "Astronomy and Astrology used to go hand in hand. No one can deny this. The true practice of 'reading the spheres' or energy of the spheres was through TRUE OBSERVATION and NOT imaginary segments of the sky. If the ancients saw the Moon in Virgo....that position is what they used. If they saw Mars in Leo....this is what they used for 'seeing the energy'. TRUE OBSERVATION...."

SeaWind: All Astrologers use TRUE astronomical data. The only difference is the zodiacal framework the planets & stars are seen thru. The demarcations of the constellations used by the IAU are as "imaginary" as the demarcations of the astrological signs. When you look up into the sky, do you see demarcations? Neither did the astronomers in 1930 when they decided to use the 1875 EQUINOX as a marker. It is arbitrary (as in depending on judgment, not fixed). In fact, the Sidereal Zodiac is more constant because they use fixed stars as an anchor.

Leo/Virgo: "To me, its not about giving readings...its not about predictions...its about finding yourself amongst a much larger 'be-ing' with is everything. Knowing your place, amongst the Universe, the planet, mankind, the man made constellations, the spheres, all life. Its about realigning your inner compass....to what really surrounds you."

SeaWind: Of course, you would have to know how to give readings first. One of the original purposes of astronomy/astrology was PREDICTION.
“The astronomers/astrologers (originally the observations and magic/religious applications were made by the same people), used the movements of the night sky for divinatory purposes. Some of these applications were founded on correspondences between practical knowledge and celestial observations (for example, the relationship between solar position and stellar positions depends on the season, which has practical implications for agriculture), while some others were completely unfounded.” (from Centipedia)

Leo/Virgo: "Well...through true observations...I discovered, the way man practices the art of reading the stars today...was not how man of old did it anyways."

SeaWind: Considering that “By the time of Ptolemy the zodiac was already at least two thousand years old” and "The concept of the zodiac was originated by the Babylonians certainly before 2000 BC as a method of visualizing the passage of time" --- I would say that their interpretation of astronomical phenomena had a VERY LONG period of observation.

There is nothing wrong with the zodiac Ptolemy used -- once it is adjusted for Precession. In fact, I think it's more accurate that the IAU zodiac which is arbitrarily pinned to an 1875 EQUINOX.

SeaWind

reply to post by SeaWind


I should have included this before. The first list is Sidereal and the second by the IAU (International Astronomers Union)

Sidereal (Fagan)
Aries April 14 - May 14
Taurus May 15 - June 14
Gemini June 15 - July 16
Cancer July 17 - Aug 16
Leo Aug 17 - Sept 16
Virgo Sept 17 - Oct17
Libra Oct 18 - Nov 16
Scorpio Nov 17 - Dec 15
Sagittarius Dec 16 - Jan 14
Capricorn Jan 15 - Feb 12
Aquarius Feb 13 - March 14
Pisces March 15 - April 13

IAU ( as of 2000 AD )*
Aries April 19 – May 13
Taurus May 14 – June 19
Gemini June 20 – July 20
Cancer July 21- Aug 9
Leo Aug 10 – Sept 15
Virgo Sept 16 – Oct 30
Libra Oct 31 – Nov 22
Scorpio Nov 23 – Nov 29
Ophiuchus Nov 30 – Dec 17
Sagittarius Dec 18 – Jan 18
Capricorn Jan 19 – Feb 15
Aquarius Feb 16 – Mar 11
Pisces Mar 12 – Apr 18

*Note that the IAU constellations are aligned with the 1875 EQUINOX.

SeaWind

Originally posted by coyotepoet
reply to post by SeaWind

 

Thanks for the clarity. Astrology isn't something that I've spent a lot of time studying. However, as things go I always read four horoscopes which usually fit: I've got Gemini rising and a Leo sun sign so I always read those. Currently I am a progressed Virgo so I pay attention to that, and the Human Design System (interesting in itself) has a slightly different take on plantary influence timing and has me as a Cancer. I generally find something of value in all of them.

Coyotepoet, I took a look at the "Human Design System" site, seems like a veritable multi-cultural potpourri of occult systems (I Ching, Kabbalah, etc.). Very New Age-y and different.

SeaWind

reply to post by SeaWind


I can only hope that through our discussion...that others gain a more clear perspective that allows them to think for themselves.

This is really funny. You do not seem to realize that the zodiac used by the International Astronomical Union (IAU) is just as "imaginary" as the zodiacs used by the astrologers. “The Zodiac is an imaginary belt of the Sun's apparent path in the sky. Imaginary divisions of the zodiac represent, in astronomy, constellations, and in astrology, signs.”

The 'belt' of the path of the Sun...is of course a 'unseen' belt/path....but what I am calling imaginary and what you are calling imaginary are not a comparison. Im not talking about the 'belt/path' of the Sun being something that is 'made up/imaginary'....Im talking about the tropical zodiac has no real basis what so ever for its signs. They do not represent the sky, they do not represent the path of the Sun. It has literally 'made up' imaginary space for the signs for they are not all the same size and the Sun does not spend the same amount of time in them all. The whole 'sign' thing is modern....as I have said...astronomy and astrology used to be practiced side by side and I only try to begin this again. Ive never, ever....called myself an astrologer. I see no reason that there was ever a need from 'constellations' (true representation of the sky) to 'signs' (imaginary).

Yes...Im saying that man has added too much to something that was very simple...they used to LOOK in the sky and OBSERVE.

Dating back to the time when there was no clear distinction between astronomy and astrology, the zodiac is traditionally thought of as comprising a certain set of constellations. The constellations of both zodiacs are shown in the table below, including Ophiuchus, which was added to the astronomical zodiac by the International Astronomical Union in 1930 when it based its zodiac on the 1875 equinox.

The international union based the 'astronomical zodiac' on the true spaces of the constellations...the true path of the Sun. Astronomy offers the 'changes' of the path of the sun, from earths perspective. I dont use a fixed 'wheel of zodiac' if that is what you are getting at. If you or I are using a 'changing wheel' then it matters not what equinox the zodiac was set to. I look and see what degree a sphere is in to what sign its in....in 'real sky' in 'real positions'. I think you are misunderstanding and assume that I use some fixed wheel tied to a certain point that does not allow one to stay up to date with the changes (precession).

What does it matter that in 1930 they actually made professional observations of the sky's constellations or that its based on the equinox of 1875? I observe the Suns place of the equinox every year...I dont use a fixed equinox.

I have posted a number of times, all zodiacs are symbolic. The symbolic meaning of the signs grew out of observation of astronomical phenomena over a long period of time. The beginning & ending of an astronomical constellation is EVEN MORE arbitrary than the beginning & ending of an astrological sign (which is based on meaning accrued over time).

Not sure what you mean about this...astronomical borders are a much more precise perspective of the observable sky. I can tell you exactly when the Sun sits on the cusps, when the Moon or other planets passes in front of other Suns...when the moon or planets are not in the path of the Sun (true solar zodiac). If a planet is going to conjunct Regulus...I can tell you.

As I've posted to you before, you're welcome to create your own astrology. Some might recommend learning established Astrology before inventing one's own.

Right...since I find established modern astrology going very wrong...I think I will pass. Spiritual paths are not meant for another to tell you what your purpose is....most of the deepest understandings are going to ONLY come from a seeker...seeking by themselves, seeking within them, for meaning and understanding. Im not trying to be an astrologist...Im trying to show people how to realign with the spheres and how important it is to observe them for yourself. To know where to look for the spheres....you must, absolutely must, use astronomy. The power is not in another giving another a reading...the power is you stepping outside and the infinite universe can observe your true intent on seeking. At least...this is what I have found, to be needed on a deeper path way beyond what any man can offer another man. It was stressed to me, how important it was....to encourage man to observe for themselves. Realign to where the spheres really were...at one's birth. Im not wishing to start my own anything...I only am trying to bring awareness to some things many people are not aware of.

The demarcations of the constellations used by the IAU are as "imaginary" as the demarcations of the astrological signs. When you look up into the sky, do you see demarcations? Neither did the astronomers in 1930 when they decided to use the 1875 EQUINOX as a marker. It is arbitrary (as in depending on judgment, not fixed). In fact, the Sidereal Zodiac is more constant because they use fixed stars as an anchor.

Its not hard to observe that the constellations dont share the same amount of space. Just observe it for yourself. Some are huge. The borders by the IAU fit very well according to the stars within each constellation. The tropical and sidereal do not come close to represent the space of the constellations...and yes, I know, they are not meant to and I find that a big problem. There is no reason to take constellations and make 'imaginary spaces' for them and then 'fix' them into a wheel and call them 'signs'.

I can tell you precisely where any sphere is if you want to truly observe it in the night sky. If a planet is going to be sitting directly above Spica....I can tell you this so you can step out and observe it. If it was like this at your birth....say Venus was directly over Spica...I can tell you when this will happen again so you can 'realign' with this sphere and its place that it was at for your birth. Again...I dont do all of this for 'predictions and readings' but more for realigning. Why tell someone Saturn is in Libra....when they can look in the sky and SEE its in Virgo.

Of course, you would have to know how to give readings first. One of the original purposes of astronomy/astrology was PREDICTION.

Alot of the time yes...but I do disagree with this and think that man has came far enough in spiritual paths to know...that a deeper path can only be found, through ones own inner self. Predictions...we have learned, limits us. Its time for man to gain courage to stand on their own two feet, when seeking god, guidance, things of inner growth, purpose in life. If they seek through another man....they limit their understanding. So even though I support that the ancients encouraged 'true observation of the night sky' I also encourage man today to 'stand on their own, seek within them a deeper meaning for any purpose, if the IAM is within us all....then there is no reason another has to tell us of our fate.

Considering that “By the time of Ptolemy the zodiac was already at least two thousand years old” and "The concept of the zodiac was originated by the Babylonians certainly before 2000 BC as a method of visualizing the passage of time" --- I would say that their interpretation of astronomical phenomena had a VERY LONG period of observation.

And I agree...but I think there were some things that were assumed with the meanings of things as well. I think we can look right to the religions and beliefs of the 'ages' and see a much deeper observational meaning of the 'path of the Sun'...for like you said, it was used of visualizing the passage of time and I think then stories were made to reflect back into the 'ages' and tell their tales/attributes.

Everything is a part of a much bigger something. Even the 'man made constellations/animals/images' in the sky. They area part of mans collective mind of way back when....and man used much meaning of 'life' to reflect that into the sky. We can look at the age of Taurus and see this. We can look at that age of Aries and see this. Same with the age of Pisces. We will too...see it reflected in the age of Aquarius. Everything is a reflection of consciousness. As we look back into a past age...we see a moment in mans past consciousness and understanding and growth (or lack of).

The more you encourage others that you can offer them readings and such...the more you limit them of seeking within their own self for meaning.

All I know....is when I say where a sphere is or the sun is....that is where its going to be in the observable sky. No imaginary anything....if they know the stars of Virgo and the shape of Virgo...and I tell them Saturn is in Virgo...they are going to be able to step outside and SEE Saturn in Virgo.

Im not here to tell you how to do it all....Im now explaining myself because you made many assumptions about my thread that were uncalled for. Ive never claimed to be an astrologer, I dont offer readings...I offer people their true positions of the spheres at their birth so they can observe true energies.

reply to post by SeaWind



But just because those dates are aligned to the 1875 equinox...does not mean that one, when looking to astronomy...can not be able to figure the 'change' that occurs every 72 years. Since 1875...the Sun has moved 1 degree...having very little effect so far of where the Sun is in the constellations. I can look ahead and see that that 'true solar path' will change its place of spring equinox in a few hundred years. It will enter the cusp of Pisces and Aquarius in a few hundred years...will remain on the cusp for a 100-200 years and we will have a Spring Equinox Sun in Aquarius about 2500-2600AD (going on memory when I figured this out before).

Just because those dates are given...they will change over time. And from what I understand...sidereal dates will change over time too.

The main difference from sidereal and true solar wheel is that sidereal gives each sign the same amount of space...and this is not something that reflects our observable sky. Plus, besides me using the true solar wheel of 13 signs for the sun, I also tell people when the moon or planets our outside of this solar wheel....and when they enter signs like Cetus, Sextans, Serpens, Bootes, Coma Berenices...or ride the cusp of Orion.

I dont use a fixed wheel to fixed dates. Im only offering the differences so others understand and I know you as well Seawind are offering your perspective for the same reason of understanding from what you use.

Surely we can both offer our reasoning without debates and without attacks. Surely we can offer our different perspectives, for others to decide for themselves. Offering them a explaining of why we use different positions.

Originally posted by reddsite
reply to post by reddsite

 

anyway i dont believe zodiac changes unless sun totaly crosses paths or sun of that seson changes to nother sign so i believe old zodiac still good for long time, or aries makes it to second house

The Sun of the seasons has changes signs...if you go by a true solar zodiac or what you can observe in the true sky.

Example...our equinox does not have a Aries sun anymore and has not had this for a long time. Our Equinox Sun has been rising in Pisces for several thousand years according to the true constellations in the sky...and in a few hundred years it will rise in Aquarius on the Spring Equinox. Is this what you were meaning? Right now, true observations of the Sun at Spring Equinox...is in Pisces...and not too far away...it will be in Aquarius.

All the equinoxes and solstices no longer rise in the signs that the modern day zodiacs of today use which are tied to the past positions of the equinoxes and solstices. So one can say...the 'sign' of Spring...right now is Pisces and has been Pisces for a couple thousand years (actually a bit more then a couple thousand years). In about 2600AD the 'sign' of Spring will be Aquarius.

Is this what you were talking about?

Here is an image of the Sun at this Spring Equinox of 2011




Notice the next image...is for Spring Equinox in the year 2600AD....the Sun is has moved onto the cusp of Pisces and Aquarius and is on its way of moving completely into Aquarius soon after this...






Now lets look at Spring Equinox in the year 3000AD





Not only does the Sun pass through 13 signs in a year....over time, the dates to these 'times of the Sun in signs' changes over time. This is how we have a changing of the 'ages'.



Just for kicks...lets jump to Spring Equinox....5000AD so we can observe the age of Capricorn coming after Aquarius.

Another example of the difference in using astronomy for the spheres and their signs can be seen for January 22nd.

There is no astrologist that is going to tell you of the Moons true location on Jan. 22nd.

The Moon will be outside the path of the Sun...outside any tropical, sidereal, and solar zodiac...and it will be in Sextans which sits below the constellation of Leo.

A child born on Jan 22nd of 2011....I would use the Moon and its true position in Sextans.

On Jan 29-30th....Moon will be in Ophiuchus. I just find these positions that we can observe in the sky to be of importance. Astrology is not going to tell you the Moon enters Ophiuchus either.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


I couldn't resist using this bit from astrologer Richard Nolle:

"There's a delicious irony in astronomers criticizing astrologers for ignoring the constellations. It's that the astronomers base their entire system of celestial coordinates on the very same point Ptolemy declared as the beginning of the zodiac of signs — the northern vernal equinox, the point in the heavens (as seen from earth) where the sun appears to be at the beginning of spring in the northern hemisphere. Let me, how does that work? If we astrologers use the vernal equinox as a starting point, it's wrong — but if you astronomers use it, it's right?? If that's the case it's a cause for celebration, because it proves that at least some of us can have our cake and eat it too! Although it appears you have to be an astronomer to pull it off . . ."

In 1930 the International Astronomical Union (IAU) chose to align their constellations with the northern vernal EQUINOX of 1875. Since the IAU is headquartered in Paris, France -- I set up the chart for that location. The vernal equinox was on Mar 21, 1875 at 00:35 hrs (or 12:35 am midnight) in Paris. The Sun was in Pisces according to IAU and Siderealists.


SeaWind

reply to post by SeaWind


I still dont think you understand.

This makes absolutely no difference because I dont use a fixed wheel.

The problem with astrology (modern day) is they do use a fixed wheel that does not observe the change of 1 degree every 72 years. Seawind...the problem is not with tying a wheel to a equinox....as long as the 'change' is always adjusted with time with precession. Sidereal is rather new....it did account for precession, that is why it shows us the Sun in Pisces and not Aries, for Spring Equinox.

The program I use for positions, takes note of the precession, for it has to be accurate to call itself an astronomy program. I dont use a wheel to gather positions, I use a program that is absolutely precise and to know that it was precise I had to observe the sky ALOT and check with many other programs. I can then, after gaining the degree of a sphere within a sign....can place that onto a wheel.

The reason astrology is given a hard time about tying to a equinox is because it does not account for the 'changing of ages' so to say. Sideareal has stepped up and observed the 'change' that has occurred over time...but as one can see, its still a bit off. Also, it will never be 'just right' because it is created off of tropical, which took away observing in the real sky.

So maybe Im missing your point of your last post?? Could you explain your point in it?

I'm an Oph...err...uh... Snake Handler now too, it seems...vs. a Sag.
Would have been better to go with "Serpentis" or something we could all pronounce, don't you think?

I know it's like "Off - if (- the f) - you - cuss", but it's just a bit ridiculous to say.

Sky diviners, tell me, how can astrology save one from what is to come?

Originally posted by Hemisphere
reply to post by RizeorDie

 

From what I've seen you are now a Virgo!

Here's the new breakdown:

Capricorn: Jan. 20-Feb. 16

Aquarius: Feb. 16-March 11

Pisces: March 11-April 18

Aries: April 18-May 13

Taurus: May 13-June 21

Gemini: June 21-July 20

Cancer: July 20-Aug. 10

Leo: Aug. 10-Sept. 16

Virgo: Sept. 16-Oct. 30

Libra: Oct. 30-Nov. 23

Scorpio: Nov. 23-Nov. 29

Ophiuchus: Nov. 29-Dec. 17

Sagittarius: Dec. 17-Jan. 20

These IAU (International Astronomical Union) dates will vary slightly from one year to the next (as will dates on the Sidereal & Tropical Zodiacs), which is why if you're a "Cuspal" -- you need to see your Natal Chart.

The IAU Zodiac is based on the 1875 northern Vernal Equinox (21 March 1875) when the Sun was at seven (7) degrees Sidereal Pisces (Fagan).

The mistake people are making by insisting on the use of the IAU Zodiac, is that it is based on a very arbitrary division and is NOT tied to MEANING of any kind. At least the Sidereal Zodiac of the Hindus (which was ALWAYS adjusted for Precession), have millenia of OBSERVATION behind it. It has a PRACTICAL divinatory use. It is used to select a spouse, it's used to select the right time to start a business, or any important event in one's life. Because Astrology has a practical use, it has been kept alive.

Claudius Ptolemy was NOT wrong when he wrote his "Tetrabiblos" -- in Ptolemy's lifetime the Vernal Equinox was almost exactly aligned with the stars. He had at least 2,000 years of collective observations behind his MEANINGS. The problem in the West is that Western astrologers lost sight of Precession, so now the Tropical Zodiac which they insist on using is about 25 degrees off.

See my ATS thread on this topic:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by Allred5923

Archeologists have found Mammoth tusks with the phases of the moon inscribed on them as early as 10K B.C., what would possess them to have want to record such events if they weren't somehow intellectually inclined to do so?
As for the beginning of "Astrology" it is ironic it would have to be recorded by the Hindus some 5-6K years ago as a reference of celestial prominence, and their perceptions of events that were taking place, this, as a matter of speaking of the so called myth's of Ancient people, "A time when the 'Gods were battling in the skies with one another", this was known as the Ancient Mahabharata,which was depicted as in Vimana or flying vehicles, this was quite an event to lucidly explain, not to mention the countless written examples given during this event by individuals from all walks of life.

And one more thing "Have you ever read any of the Ancient Alien theory books or their possible relationships to not one but all religions and belief systems?

Heres a link to the Mahabharata thesis explanation, be warned it is a long read, and sorry, it is only available in PDF format, you might have to cut and paste if it doesn't direct link:

stopnwo.com...

Allred5923, Good post. I definitely believe in "Ancient Aliens." There's a book, "Celestial Key to the Vedas" by an astronomer on the real date of the Vedas: 10,500 BC. This corresponds to the real date of the Sphinx estimated by Robert Bauval to be around 10,500 BC (based on astronomical data). Astrology has always been considered a "Sacred Art" based on astronomical observation. But I believe human civilization is much, much older than conventional historians or scientists would even consider as possible. And ancient humans had "help."

SeaWind

Originally posted by Jedite
On the plus side from what I've been looking at, and what I read on another post in here, it only effects people born after 2009. So if you all were born before that which I'm sure you were,

we'll be okay.

Jedite, Ophiuchus has always existed under the umbrella of Scorpio. It's one of the reasons why the Serpent has been one of the symbols of Scopio -- along with the Scorpion, Eagle, and Phoenix.

Ptolemy was aware of Ophiuchus. It's ancient, not new.

SeaWind

Originally posted by kalisdad

Originally posted by Muaythai92
You guys unless you were born this year your still your sign. The moment you were born the sun and moon were in a certain spot this new constellation doesn't affect our past it only affects the present.

this is what they tell you, but it is not true...

use Stellarium and go see what astrological sign the sun is in on your date of birth...

according to my birthdate, I am a Leo, but using Stellarium, I can clearly see that the sun is in Cancer on the day I was born

I had to go back to the year 100AD(roughly) to actually see the sun rising in Leo on the month and day I was born.

the fact is, our modern astrology was fixed a long time ago and has been inaccurate ever since.

Kalisdad, the IAU (International Astronomical Union) Zodiac is NOT accurate for Astrological purposes! Astronomers are NOT interested in MEANING. They decided in 1930 to divide their IAU Zodiac into 13 constellations based on the northern Vernal Equinox of 1875.

The ancient 12 sign Zodiac of the Hindus has ALWAYS been adjusted for the Precession of the Equinoxes. It has MILLENNIA of observations behind it. It has survived because it works. It has a PRACTICAL PURPOSE.

Ptolemy was also right, but when he was alive the Sidereal Zodiac & the Tropical Zodiac were aligned almost exactly. The Western astrologers did NOT adjust their Tropical Zodiac for Precession, that's why it's off.

See my ATS thread on this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by Alethea

Something I found very interesting in the video presented on page 1, posted by Who's Ready, is that the narrator keeps calling the bird symbol an eagle, but clearly, it is not. At 4:09 to 4:16 take a good look at the bird image. It appears to me to be the symbol of the Phoenix.

Could there be some correlation between the appearance of the 13th zodiac sign and the Phoenix?

The Phoenicians called themselves "sons of the Phoenix". The Phoenicians were Canaanites. The word Canaan means "trader or merchant". The legend goes that the sons of the Phoenix were immortal and were able to rise again no matter how many times they were destroyed.

Could there be some correlation between Moses' snake on a pole and Ophiuchus?

Alethea, as I already explained to someone else. Ophiuchus has always been included under Scorpio. The Serpent, Eagle, Scorpion, and Phoenix have always been symbols of Scorpio.

Yes, there is a correlation between Moses & Ophiuchus. Under some traditions, Moses is the same person as Ophiuchus.

See my ATS thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind

Originally posted by kalisdad
reply to post by belowabovetopsecret

 

don't worry...

according to the Ptolemy fixed astrology of the past 2000 years, you are in fact still a scorpio

Kalisdad, Ptolemy did NOT have a "fixed" astrology. The Tropical Zodiac Ptolemy used is based on the Vernal Equinox. When Ptolemy was alive it was nearly exactly aligned with the Sidereal Zodiac. But the Western astrologers forgot to adjust their Tropical Zodiac for Precession. On the other hand, Hindu astrologers adjusted their Sidereal Zodiac for Precession of the Equinoxes.

Ptolemy was aware of the constellation of Ophiuchus, it came under the zodiacal sign of Scorpio.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

SeaWind