The Delphi Oracle says ....

"Ήξεις αφήξεις ουκ εν πόλεμω θνίξεις"
"You will go and you will return; you will not die in the war"
Ήξεις αφήξεις ουκ, εν πόλεμω θνίξεις
"You will go, but you will not return; you will die in the war"
So, the Delphi Oracle is always right and can never loose! The foolproof undebunkable prediction from the Delphi Oracle tradition of Ancient Greece.

reply to post by WalterRatlos




Do you know of any other prophecies that the oracle of Delphi prophesize? And do any of them relate to today's events?

reply to post by WalterRatlos



You do realize that this translation makes no sense because it contradicts the whole point of the original?

It should be something along the lines of: You will go return not die in the war.

The whole point of this story is in the missing commas, and this was often used in schools to demonstrate the importance of punctuation.

I wish they still taught that today.....



P.S. Oh, and it is not Greek at all. The original is in Latin.
There never was such an inscription at Delphi; or if there was, we know nothing about it.

Originally posted by AdAstra
reply to post by WalterRatlos

 

You do realize that this translation makes no sense because it contradicts the whole point of the original It should be something along the lines of: You will go return not die in the war.

How about: Ibis redibis nunquam per bella peribis
The translation was not intended to follow the original grammar structure. My goal was mainly to provide an accurate rendering of the change in meaning.

Originally posted by AdAstra
The whole point of this story is in the missing commas, and this was often used in schools to demonstrate the importance of punctuation.

I wish they still taught that today.....

No argument there and I think I already explained that much in the OP.

Originally posted by AdAstra
P.S. Oh, and it is not Greek at all. The original is in Latin.
There never was such an inscription at Delphi; or if there was, we know nothing about it.

This Greek website begs to differ: www.patrokosmas.gr...
But see also here: www.translatum.gr...
P.S.: technically, there were periods in the oracle's history where everything was communicated in the oral tradition with no written records. The second greek website seems to indicate that this was a back translation of the Latin phrase (see above), which means that the Latins or the Romans translated it from Ancient Greek and then it was translated back from Latin to Ancient Greek. And finally, many thanks for taking your time to answer to my first thread ever here.

Originally posted by Yuuki
reply to post by WalterRatlos

 

Do you know of any other prophecies that the oracle of Delphi prophesize? And do any of them relate to today's events?

No, but I'm sure if you search online you will find many. I used to know many of the Oracle of Dodoni, which is not far from where I live. No, I don't think any of the Ancient Greek Oracles made any prediction that reached into our present time. Mostly, they were concerned about their time and what their immidiate future might hold for them. And most of the requests were very down to earth and every day life oriented. From the written records from the Oracle of Dodoni (they used to scribe them into lead tablets) someone wanted to know whether his wife was cheating him, the next guy wanted to know whether he and his wife would have more kids and the last in line wanted to know how to conduct his business. See he was a merchant and was thinking of expanding his business to include see traveling. The answer he got was: do both, paraphrased. Shrewd businessmen the priests of the Oracle of Dodoni.
P.S.: I found this while googling Delphi Oracle prophesies: psychicinvestigator.com...

reply to post by WalterRatlos


That is correct, it is a back translation, but who exactly is the author remains unclear.
(I am sure I've seen a lengthy entry about this somewhere on Perseus, and it should be easy enough to find out, but I am in a post-and-run mood today. )

The alleged inscription is not found anywhere in Pausanias (or Plutarch), so it's clearly "apocryphal" (as are, incidentally, most of the other inscriptions; they were likely ancient proverbs that were later ascribed to the different oracles).

I've always liked it, ever since I was frst taught about it (funnily enough, by my English teacher).

Oh, and regarding the oracle itself, it may be interesting to some readers here to learn that some researchers have speculated that the priestesses who often delivered the responses may have been under the influence of the fumes produced by the burning laurel leaves (burnt offerings).

I don't usually like that sort of reasoning that turns everything ever so slightly out of the ordinary into "hallucinations" and what not; but in this case, being somewhat familiar with essential oils and such, I think it's not as crazy as it sounds.

Originally posted by AdAstra
reply to post by WalterRatlos

 

That is correct, it is a back translation, but who exactly is the author remains unclear.
(I am sure I've seen a lengthy entry about this somewhere on Perseus, and it should be easy enough to find out, but I am in a post-and-run mood today.

)

Well, the choice is limited somehow, because during the Classical Ancient Greek age the Delphi Oracle was the most famous and the most important one. The Oracle of Dodoni was it's predecessor with a long history that goes back to 3000 BCE with a long oral tradition, because writing and it's prevailing came much later.

Originally posted by AdAstra
The alleged inscription is not found anywhere in Pausanias (or Plutarch), so it's clearly "apocryphal" (as are, incidentally, most of the other inscriptions; they were likely ancient proverbs that were later ascribed to the different oracles).

Do they have other inscriptions or even stories about oracle prophecies?

Originally posted by AdAstra
I've always liked it, ever since I was frst taught about it (funnily enough, by my English teacher).

Yeah, I like it myself for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by AdAstra
Oh, and regarding the oracle itself, it may be interesting to some readers here to learn that some researchers have speculated that the priestesses who often delivered the responses may have been under the influence of the fumes produced by the burning laurel leaves (burnt offerings).

Well, the way I have learned it is that Pythia used to chew laurel leaves while she sat on a tripod over a chasm in the earth inhaling most likely sulphur gases. Anyways, the story goes that she would fall then into a trance like state where she uttered incomprehensible sounds which the priests then interpreted accordingly to answer the request of the petitioner.

Originally posted by AdAstra
I don't usually like that sort of reasoning that turns everything ever so slightly out of the ordinary into "hallucinations" and what not; but in this case, being somewhat familiar with essential oils and such, I think it's not as crazy as it sounds.

I highly doubt that you can get high and start to hallucinate by inhaling burnt laurel leaves. There is a case however that she may have used other psychotropic substances to help her get into the trance.

Do they have other inscriptions or even stories about oracle prophecies?

I was referring to other purported inscriptions like the famous "know thyself" and such.
But I am speaking purely from memory right now, so I should go and check.
(And will do so, just not right now. )

BTW (only slightly off topic), I remember reading in Mircea Eliade's Histoire des croyances religieuses that famous story about an old woman on a bus to Eleusis...
I wonder where did that come from?

Well, the way I have learned it is that Pythia used to chew laurel leaves while she sat on a tripod over a chasm in the earth inhaling most likely sulphur gases. Anyways, the story goes that she would fall then into a trance like state where she uttered incomprehensible sounds which the priests then interpreted accordingly to answer the request of the petitioner.

Right - sulphur fumes! I forgot about that.
Anyway, no, laurel leaves, chewed or burnt (unless in huge quantities, I imagine) ,do not make you high, let alone provoke hallucinations. I know because I've tried them.

However, I don't think "hallucinations" or a major "high" would be necessary - or even desirable - for oracular purposes.
Just slightly blocking out the rational mind would be enough. And that, arguably, could be achieved by laurel leaves and/or sulphur.
But that's a moot point because I don't think they really used any mind-altering substances.

Then again, what do I know?

Originally posted by AdAstra

Do they have other inscriptions or even stories about oracle prophecies?

I was referring to other purported inscriptions like the famous "know thyself" and such.
But I am speaking purely from memory right now, so I should go and check.
(And will do so, just not right now.

)

Well, that is an entirely different thing. The "know thyself" (γνώθι σ' εαυτόν) was indeed somewhere over the temple entrance or some such. And as I said it may have been an oral tradition from a time where writing had not existed or had not prevailed yet. I guess the mystery could be solved if the Latin translation named it's source, but if that bit of information is lost ... It may well have been a philosophical construct by a famous philosopher, maybe to show how infallible an oracle can be if it rigs the prediction. In essence, to show that believing in oracle prophesies and predictions is silly and akin to modern day astrology.

Originally posted by AdAstra
BTW (only slightly off topic), I remember reading in Mircea Eliade's Histoire des croyances religieuses that famous story about an old woman on a bus to Eleusis...

I wonder where did that come from?

What kind of bus? Well could have only been some public transportation based on horse power pulling a wagon.
Eleusis was famous because they had perfected the mystical Eleusis rituals and the duping of the gullible customers who after fasting were druged with hemp and mushrooms and they were then sent through a labyrinth where they would meet gods which appeared out of nowhere - in reality there were statues that were raised hydraulically from below amid fog add the pchychotropic drug influence and they had one hell of mystical experience. Shrewd businessmen the priests in any religion from ancient times to current times.

Originally posted by AdAstra

Well, the way I have learned it is that Pythia used to chew laurel leaves while she sat on a tripod over a chasm in the earth inhaling most likely sulfur gases. Anyways, the story goes that she would fall then into a trance like state where she uttered incomprehensible sounds which the priests then interpreted accordingly to answer the request of the petitioner.

Right - sulfur fumes! I forgot about that.
Anyway, no, laurel leaves, chewed or burnt (unless in huge quantities, I imagine) ,do not make you high, let alone provoke hallucinations. I know because I've tried them.

Bliah, never crossed my mind to try it. We use it for cooking today (put whole leaves into soup).

Originally posted by AdAstra
However, I don't think "hallucinations" or a major "high" would be necessary - or even desirable - for oracular purposes.

That's where I beg to differ. As I said they are just the catalyst to get into the trance like state where Pythia mumbled mumbo jumbo and the priests interpreted that for the customers.

Originally posted by AdAstra
Just slightly blocking out the rational mind would be enough. And that, arguably, could be achieved by laurel leaves and/or sulphur.
But that's a moot point because I don't think they really used any mind-altering substances.

Nah, my bet is on the sulfur, too. They tested it out I think and there are indeed till today traces that sulfur could have been the culprit back then. One German writer made the case that it was based on cannabis and magic mushrooms and he stated in his book that the archaeologists found burnt cannabis corns, also cannabis oil was probably used to preserve wine back then. So, if this is true, it could well have been a combination of the above.

Originally posted by AdAstra
Then again, what do I know?

I don't know, let's find out. Just kidding ...

delphi had many oracles, and it seems they were all wasted on fumes from underground springs.
people used to make prophecies from the entrails of dead birds.
you can tell me useless $hit, and vice versa.

Actually, there were only two different ones. The initial one was a Sybill oracle guarded by the dragon or huge snake Python, an offspring of Gaia (Mother Earth or the Earth goddess). Then along comes Apollo and he slays the dragon or huge snake and he renames the Sybill to Pythia. Ever since it was the oracle of Apollo till it's end. There were many Pythia's in the course of time, of course, but there was only one oracle.

And yes, the ancients had many ways to divine the future. For example, in the Oracle of Dodoni there were initially three main ways to obtain an answer from the Gods: the priests listened and interpreted the noise of the wind that swept through the leaves of the sacred tree or the songs of doves nesting among the branches of the tree or the noise from the running water from a nearby spring (by the way that water had further magical properties in that a lit torch immersed in them would not extinguish and a extinguished one would ignite). Later, they would add the sound from huge copper pots resting on tripods around the temple perimeter. The way this worked was that again the wind would sweep through the valley and the copper pots would start to resonate. The main secret of fortune telling however was - I suspect - same as today: tell the client what he wants to hear and make your answer foolproof or a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Here is an interesting fact about the oracle at delphi. This quote was taken from the following link:

www.delphic-oracle.info...

Alexander the Great visited the Delphic Oracle wishing to hear a prophecy that he would soon conquer the entire ancient world. To his surprise the oracle refused a direct comment and asked him to come later. Furious, Alexander the Great dragged Pythia by the hair out of the chamber until she screamed "Let go of me; you’re unbeatable". The moment hearing this words he dropped her, saying "Now I have my answer"

So perhaps the delphi was nothing mysterious after all; it was people's belief in its divinity and predictions which made the prophecies self-fulfilling...

So perhaps the delphi was nothing mysterious after all; it was people's belief in its divinity and predictions which made the prophecies self-fulfilling...

I don't know about Delphi, but the myth about Kassandra should not be left out of the discussion.
It hits home because I have a relative who IS "Kassandra". It's not a happy fate, let me tell you.

Clairvoyance does exist, it would be useless to deny it.

Originally posted by AdAstra

So perhaps the delphi was nothing mysterious after all; it was people's belief in its divinity and predictions which made the prophecies self-fulfilling...

I don't know about Delphi, but the myth about Kassandra should not be left out of the discussion.

Why do you think so? Sure, she was a seer according to mythology, but this thread is really about the Oracle of Delphi. By the way, here is another prophecy: So, there was this king in Asia Minor and he sent a delegation to the Oracle to ask about going into war with Persia. The Oracles answer was: "If you go to war you will destroy a great empire!" So this king interpreted this as a positive sign and went into war and lost and was captured, and he sent again emissaries to the Oracle to complain and the Oracle answered: "But our prophecy was correct you did destroy a great empire - yours!" As I already said, they had the foolproof, never be wrong method to scam their contemporaries and get rich and powerful.

Originally posted by AdAstra
It hits home because I have a relative who IS "Kassandra". It's not a happy fate, let me tell you.
Clairvoyance does exist, it would be useless to deny it.

I prefer the agnostic position, could exist or could as easily not, I have no idea, and I am like Apostle Thomas in that regard. See, also my signature. As it says there: extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.