Loughner Pulled Over on the Morning of Massacre; Police Visited Home Multiple Times

TUCSON, Ariz. – A wildlife officer pulled over the suspect in the assassination attempt against an Arizona congresswoman less than three hours before the deadly attack, authorities said Wednesday as they pieced together more details of a frenzied morning.

news.yahoo.com...

TUCSON — The police were sent to the home where Jared L. Loughner lived with his family on more than one occasion before the attack here on Saturday that left a congresswoman fighting for her life and six others dead, the Pima County Sheriff’s Department said on Tuesday.

www.nytimes.com...

While the first link describes a traffic violation responded to by a wildlife ranger, both news articles point towards the fact that Jared Lee Loughner could've been stopped and given help long before this tragedy took place. While the Pima County Sheriff hurries to cover his tracks while quickly pushing the blame on media outlets, the gross negligence of this case over an extended period of time become apparent. The blame-stream news story quickly lost the air from underneath it as the partisan bickering is being exposed once again for what it is.

So...anyone whom gets pulled over by a cop for running a stoplight should what...be detained and given evaluations?
Or should everyone with a mental disorder not be allowed to see the light of day?

There is no blamestorming session going on here...everyone from both sides (reasonable minds) know this guy was just a nut...no known political motivation...hell, this may turn out to be a jealousy crime of passion for all we know.

The point is...there are alot of people like him. We are creating a powder keg of anger politically and officals need to tone it down so that the next mass shootings -isn't- politically related from the insanity pushed by officals....

Targetting is a time honored tradition..anti-abortionists from the 90s used to put out "wanted" posters with a crosshairs over doctors...and several times, some nut did in fact go and shoot/kill those specific doctors.

If you can't see whats being discussed here, then I think comprehension may be a issue..the argument is not he did this because of say, palin's target posters...its saying...hey, wtf..there are target posters on politicians...lets not do that, k?

reply to post by SaturnFX


I'm sorry, I don't understand why you brought up the 'Palin Crosshairs Map', I didn't bring that up at all in my OP. I agree with the viewpoint that doing so only fuels the partisan political rhetoric being spewed in light of the tragedy.

What I was trying to bring to light was the fact that, between multiple house visits by the local police department, the official records of which are being covered up from media exposure, and the fact he was reportedly kicked out of college nearly four months ago, there were plenty of red flags raised and chances to get this individual help, whether psychological or otherwise, that is now very apparently what needed to be done a long time ago.

Originally posted by Tgautier13
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I'm sorry, I don't understand why you brought up the 'Palin Crosshairs Map', I didn't bring that up at all in my OP. I agree with the viewpoint that doing so only fuels the partisan political rhetoric being spewed in light of the tragedy.

What I was trying to bring to light was the fact that, between multiple house visits by the local police department, the official records of which are being covered up from media exposure, and the fact he was reportedly kicked out of college nearly four months ago, there were plenty of red flags raised and chances to get this individual help, whether psychological or otherwise, that is now very apparently what needed to be done a long time ago.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that this guy actually killed anyone. Have you convicted him already? Should we just forgo the trial then? We don't know why these people were killed or by whom.

reply to post by PlautusSatire


This is a straw man argument. Multiple witnesses saw the suspect in custody open fire into the crowd. He was then disarmed by a woman as he was trying to reload his sidearm, and was subsequently tackled by a nearby individual while the police arrived five minutes later. The court case will determine the extent of his punishment, there is little doubt in anyone's mind Jared Lee Loughner is the man behind the massacre. I will quote a post I made in another thread:

Are you trying to rationalize police brutality here? Justice isn't delivered by the batons of the officers, rather by the gavel of the judge. Let's also not forget he hasn't even been proven guilty yet in the court of law, no matter how much evidence points the blame in his direction so far. Let me make it clear I'm not defending this person per se, rather I am defending our judicial system in this case.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by PlautusSatire


Oh please. People said that about Brian Nichols, too.
articles.cnn.com...:CRIME

Nichols, 37, was convicted last month of 54 counts for a deadly shooting rampage that began in the same courthouse where he is standing trial. Nichols shot three people at the downtown courthouse and a federal agent in Atlanta's Buckhead district before being captured in neighboring Gwinnett County.
(snip)
Defense lawyers said Nichols, who confessed to the killings, suffers from a mental disorder.

Of course he has a right to a trial, and all of that, so he can face the death penalty too, but for the sake of conversation, one can reasonably assume he killed those people, because so many witnesses saw it.

The Brian Nichols case even had video of the attack that was televised, and people still said this. Really?

Or, do people have to use the PC term, and claim alleged killer? Really?

reply to post by Tgautier13


I don't see anywhere in those articles where officers could have come to the conclusion that Loughner was planning an assassination attempt. People get pulled over for traffic violations all the time. They also remove various colored bags from their trunk sometimes. I guess I don't get how this all equates to a cover up?

I find it odd that the people defending Palin and others say this is all Loughner's fault and no one else's are also trying to blame anyone that isn't Republican. There is a difference between laying blame on someone and asserting that had someone acted differently, the tragedy could have been prevented. However, I don't see how pulling him over for running a red light could ever lead anyone to believe he was on his way to commit mass murder.

reply to post by nunya13


Its not about the fact that the police 'should've known' magically that this person was going to plan a mass shooting! Its about the fact that records were compiled both by state authorities and the education board that the suspect in question had psychological disorders, and nothing was done about it! The fact he was pulled over the day of the shooting should be a side issue at this point, and perhaps I shouldn't of even sourced it in my OP. I just saw the news article today and it made me realize along with other articles I have read recently the negligence of those in the position to get this young man help to do so.

I find it odd that the people defending Palin and others say this is all Loughner's fault and no one else's are also trying to blame anyone that isn't Republican.

Is this directed at me or at the topic in general? I don't understand what you are getting at is why I ask. I haven't defended Sarah Palin, and I don't understand what is so partisan about bringing up issues handled by the police department and education board in general.

reply to post by nunya13


He had made death threats in months leading up to the shootings. He should have been charged, then, for the crime of making terroristic threats. Had he been charged then, he would have a felony on his record, as it appears his previous record had been cleared of a felony due to a first offender type program. He may have even served some time for it.

Hence, he would not have been legal to buy a gun, nor to carry a gun. If the officer knew he had a gun, he would have been arrested, but this article simply points out the irony, I think, that he was stopped prior to the shootings. It kind of slipped through their fingers at that point.

Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation. My sympathies and my heart goes out to her and the rest of Mr. Loughner’s family. This tragedy must be tearing them up inside wondering if they had done the right things in trying to manage Jared’s obvious mental instability.

thechollajumps.wordpress.com...

It all seems to me like a giant game of blame or second guessing ourselves or officials.
Crazy is just crazy. It is by it's very nature fairly unpredictable. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be so crazy.
I don't understand why if they want to TALK about something, it's not a good solid information piece on funding for mental health services and pieces that talk about how to identify it and what to do if you, as a parent or friend, suspect you've spotted it in someone you know.
We see articles ALL the time about flu symptoms. No one seems to know a thing about psychosis. Which is crazy, things are so crazy now people can't spot REALLY crazy. I think my brain just went in an infinite loop. lol

reply to post by Tgautier13


Lol. I couldn't help but notice you posted information about the shooter's being stopped by police on the day of the shootings, and it has been turned into a political skirmish against your will, like the other threads. You've got to admit, it's funny, in a way. People can play the blame game on any topic. It's all people can see.
The guy apparently has no personal responsibility?


Stopped by the police, eh? Maybe he was nervous knowing what he was about to do. I would be curious to know more about this. I also heard on CNN, a neighbor said the guy's father had called him two days prior to the shooting, and told him that they "needed help. His son was out of control".

Since then, this neighbor has put a "no trespassing" sign in his yard, and won't speak further to reporters.

For those who might not know:

There is such as thing as a "psychiatric emergency". When someone has become homicidal or suicidal, you can take them to an emergency room, and if they are determined to be at risk, they can be detained in the hospital for 72 hours without a court order, until a reasonable assessment can be done to see if further treatment is needed. If it is, a court order can be obtained to keep them longer. Sometimes they can be stabilized on medications during that short period of time.

Am I blaming the parents? I don't know. Maybe. Or maybe they just didn't know what action to take, which is why he called the neighbor seeking help. Maybe all this is the neighbors fault.

lol. Just trying to get with the program around here, and find somebody. anybody to blame rather than the shooter himself.

reply to post by Tgautier13


My comment you quoted was just a general observation as to what has been coming from the side of those who are defending Palin. They can't say she can't be blamed because its all his fault and his alone and then turn around and find someone else to blame.

I see what you're saying about his psychological health being questionable, but no one can force psychological help on anyone. We don't really know if his family was trying to get him help, but we do know that none of their descriptions of his behavior describe someone who was close to committing a mass murder/assassination attempt--he simply sounded a bit like some of us here on ATS--distrusting of the government though he did sound more irrational than most of us.

I suppose I mostly have a problem with the fact that you stated the Sheriff's dept was trying to cover his tracks. There really is nothing to cover-up here

Originally posted by Tgautier13
reply to post by PlautusSatire

 

This is a straw man argument.

uhh...what? No it isn't. It's a fact. You don't know what happened, all you're doing is telling a story.

Originally posted by Tgautier13
While the first link describes a traffic violation responded to by a wildlife ranger, both news articles point towards the fact that Jared Lee Loughner could've been stopped and given help long before this tragedy took place.

If you're really that concerned about helping the man, stop saying he killed people as if you know it's a fact. What evidence do you have tying him to the crime? If you do have some evidence, you should turn it over to the police, because they haven't produced any backing up their stories either. Where are the numerous recordings that must exist of the event? If this was a publicity event at a Safeway, where were the cameras? Why aren't we being shown these recordings?

When the news reported that Loughner took a cab to the scene of the massacre, I figured it was because he didn't own a vehicle.

Now, I wonder why he took a cab?

So he could get dropped of up front and not have to wait for a parking space?

So he could focus on his plot without the distraction of driving?

Originally posted by Aggie Man
When the news reported that Loughner took a cab to the scene of the massacre, I figured it was because he didn't own a vehicle.

Now, I wonder why he took a cab?

So he could get dropped of up front and not have to wait for a parking space?

So he could focus on his plot without the distraction of driving?

You're assuming that the story about him taking a cab is correct. Which cab from which cab company? They should have detailed records verifying this if that's the case. Where are these records? Should we just trust the police? They say he took a cab because if he didn't he has an alibi in that he'd just fled his home in full view of everyone.

Originally posted by PlautusSatire
You're assuming that the story about him taking a cab is correct. Which cab from which cab company? They should have detailed records verifying this if that's the case. Where are these records? Should we just trust the police? They say he took a cab because if he didn't he has an alibi in that he'd just fled his home in full view of everyone.

The person of interest that sheriffs have been looking has stepped forward - he is a cab driver who unwittingly provided a ride to Jared Loughner, the shooting suspect.

Pima County Sheriffs confirm that the person of interest whose photo and description was released to the public early this morning is a cab driver, and not an associate or accomplice to the suspect.

Sheriffs say he was seen on the Safeway surveillance camera because he went in with Loughner to get change for the cab ride.

www.kvoa.com...

This is enough confirmation for me.

This is straight to the point. There were a few red herrings on ATS talking about his bird description (which is clearly just a symbolic thing for his idealism of ridding our country of a police state, when you watch his video that is clear), and then saying he was in a cult (was he? Ayn Rand anyone?) and that he had a satanic alter (did he really or was it planted there by the police?).

Anyhow, I'll just bet that he merely was set off by the fact that he got another ticket (his video demonstrates his dislike of the police state). Some of these guys who do illegal activities merely feel that our country is over-policed. He made his last stand, but was clearly on the wrong side of the law. He fought the law, but the law won kind of thing.

The major bummer is that Arizona is stuck in the cross-hairs of this media circus now. Everybody is getting involved, everybody is pointing fingers, everybody is hiding their asses...Obama, Palin, McCain, the police, the border security, decriminalizing marijuana, traffic cameras...it's going to be a political nightmare now, I think I'll just turn off and tune out for the next few years (maybe 10 years or so) and focus on other stuff besides politics, anything besides politics because saying anything is just going to make more enemies, whereas not letting anybody know where you stand is golden.

reply to post by Aggie Man

When the news reported that Loughner took a cab to the scene of the massacre, I figured it was because he didn't own a vehicle.

Good observation. I guess for sure he knew he'd have a ride out of there....one way or another.

reply to post by Tgautier13


This isn't the police's fault.

The guy is obviously a paranoid schizo.

If blame is to be placed, it should be placed squarely on the family for not getting him the medical attention he obviously needed.

It sounds like his father was a publicly angry man, which leads me to believe he may have been abusive - which would also explain why the family never took him in for mental treatment. They might have been afraid that he may have brought up the parents abusive behavior in counseling.