It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Re: The Absolute
And please, stop before reacting, and thinking this is preseletizing on my part, while "hijacking" quantum physics, that's not it at all, I am only wanting to be as helpful as possible in any way possible, given what's at stake and the importance and the sheer beauty of the message, or the realization, the God-realization, without the dogma.
So the dogma isn't crushing the karma here, there's a lifting of "religious" pressures and such craziness, that was never the original intent to begin with anyway, not the truth, or the reality which was being conveyed.
Because you must remember - I "new age man" don't have have a single original idea of my own. This is not about me, but about "we".
Let us sit down then at the table and "grok" together! Amen?
Amen, Brother NewAgeMan.
But I have to disagree with you that Quantum Mechanics is not related to everything you are speaking of. It is, and yes, you can move mountains when having only the faith of a mustard seed. Quantum Physics and Mechanics is always "ethereal." That wonderful "quantum foam" is where the Higgs-Boson plays.
Thank you for your great posts, they are very helpful and fill the spirit.
The John Gesture
What is the “John gesture”? Picknett & Prince identified that da Vinci in his paintings often depicted certain people as raising their right index finger skywards. This is very pronounced in da Vinci’s painting of John the Baptist, but even in the Last Supper, one figure makes the John gesture.
Other painters seem to have noticed this was one of da Vinci’s trademarks. Raphael depicted Leonardo as Plato in his The School of Athens, where Leonardo/Plato is depicted with the “John gesture”. That this “John gesture” is also present in many of the paintings in the Turin Cathedral, could be a mere coincidence, but we note that the “John gesture” is extremely rare to be found in iconography. So: coincidence? Or more evidence for Picknett & Prince’s theory?
What does the John gesture mean? In short, Picknett & Prince do not know, but do construct a possible scenario. John the Baptist is notorious for his right index finger, with which he identified Jesus as the “Son of God”. For Picknett & Prince, the “John gesture” should be read as a concealed reference to John the Baptist, in which the sign says “remember John the Baptist”.
Let us detach for now the “John gesture” from all of its built-up theorizing. What we are left with, is a curiosity in the work of da Vinci, whereby certain paintings show a person who is raising a right index finger. What could it mean? To repeat, the “John gesture” is not solely linked with John the Baptist; a number of people in his paintings show “the finger”, even though for the most parts they are linked with the Baptist. The key question is: what does the finger mean?
There is no clear religious significance to this finger position. Jesus is often seen extending two fingers, with the palm towards the audience, “blessing” the audience; The “John gesture” raises a single finger, with the palm towards himself. Picknett & Prince have wondered whether the single finger could somehow be a reference to show that – as one comes before two – John’s church preceded that of Jesus. The turning of the palms could be a mirroring, showing that John’s church was in opposition with Jesus.
For sure, such thinking is logical, but it fails in on one major point: it requires a large context, and a lot of contextualising has gone in to come up with these possibilities. What da Vinci would have been after, if it was a signed, was an immediate sign of recognition for him or her with the “right knowledge”; those with eyes that see. The meaning therefore needs to be concise, and be set in a universal frame of reference.
So let us focus on a more direct route in trying to understand the “John gesture”. Leonardo’s education and career in Florence coincided with the Renaissance, which was a “rebirth” of the Platonic ideas, a re-acquaintance with the Hermetic literature. The Hermeticum contains large sections on magic, which makes use of the traditional four elements (Fire, Water, Air, Earth), as well stressing that gestures and finger positions are key ingredients in the various rituals. The “magical finger rituals” are now best known through the so-called “Masonic handshakes”, but these are a quite recent example of an entire spectre of “finger magic”, most of which is now lost.
“Hermetic finger magic” is clearly defined – thus meeting our “universal frame of reference” criterion set out above; each finger is assigned a specific element: the index finger with fire; the thumb with water; the middle finger with the Ether (the fifth and original element); the ring finger with earth and the little finger with air. Furthermore, the right hand is associated with the positive side (order), and the left hand with the negative side (chaos). As such, in Hermetic magic, the right index finger is associated with “positive fire”.
I would thus argue that the specific finger movement repeatedly drawn by Leonardo, in the knowledge that the finger movement is not present in Christian iconography, should thus preferentially be interpreted as a Hermetic magical “sign-ature”, with the meaning of “positive fire”.
At first sight, it may seem far removed from John the Baptist, whom we would expect to see with a raised right thumb – the thumb being the sign for water. But on closer inspection, we find that John the Baptist is indeed linked with fire.
Within a Christian context, John is linked with fire on two occasions – and in opposite senses. “Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire” says Mt. 3: 10. Here, fire consumes – negative. “I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me …will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” says the next verse, Mt. 3:11. Here, it purifies and energizes. Thus, these are the two kinds of spiritual fire: the fires of Hell and the fire of Purgatory. One is the deadly self-consuming fire of hate; the other the life-giving fire of love.
The association with “fire” is also apparent from his feast of the nativity, which occurs on June 24, or the summer solstice. Pagan societies held various fire festivals on the eve of summer solstice and most Christian regions veneered this pagan ritual into St John’s fire festivals.
Leonardo could thus merely have depicted the well-established Christian symbolism of John with fire and express this by using Hermetic symbolism, with which Florence – and by extension Leonardo himself – was well-aware. That may be all there is to it; the “secret” of the “John gesture” may be nothing more than this, and for a sceptic, it will no doubt be the end of it. But once the magical cabinet is opened, it reveals other neat “tricks”…
Within a Hermetic context, we note that the causal element is the Ether. The first element to descend from that is Fire, which then created Water – used by John for his baptisms. Fire and water then created Air, and the three elements then created Earth.
In Hermetic magic, these elements are then associated with various body parts. Intriguingly, Fire is associated with the head, and John the Baptist is most famous for his decapitation, in which his head has become a powerful talisman in some magical traditions.
Let us also return to the sequence in which the elements were created. Hermetic magic states that if Fire and Water are combined (as they have been in Leonardo’s “John gesture”, when John performs the gesture himself), Air is created; these three elements then create the fourth element, Earth. The John gesture could thus be seen as a Hermetic expression of the creation of all four elements.
Leonardo is also known for his androgynous characters. His depiction of John the Evangelist in the Last Supper is so feminine that many, including Dan Brown, have argued that “he” is actually Mary Magdalene. The painting of John the Baptist is also very feminine, and some studies suggest that the Mona Lisa actually contains the image of the (male) Leonardo. This androgyny is also known as hermaphrodite, or Hermes-Aphrodite, and expresses the Hermetic principle of the mixture of both sexes, ascending above the male-female paradigm. In Hermetic magic, this creation hinges on the transformative “positive fire”.
Finally, we need to note that the most important symbolism of “positive fire” is in its association with “purifying fire”. For the Hermetic mage, this is the fire that will burn inside the initiate, which will set him on the path of ascension to God. In classical mythology, this is best known through the Phoenix, the bird who burns on his own ashes and is then transformed. This “purifying fire” is therefore the fire of transformation, which sheds the “mortal coil” and transforms “man” into “super man”, the shaman with supernatural powers. This is the key message of the Hermetica, and it is what made the Hermetica so inviting to the 15th Florentine Christians, who transformed themselves into Hermetic mages.
In essence, the Christian imagery of fire with John the Baptist is itself veneer on a pagan fire symbolism. This, of course, makes it extremely hard to identify whether Leonardo “knew” and “used” this pagan context, or whether he “merely” used the Christian imagery.
To somewhat dabble in a scientific approach, it needs to be said that Leonardo’s painting, apart from the androgynous characters, lacks any overt Hermetical context. Furthermore, Leonardo was not a member of the Platonic Academy. Though logically it is clear that he must have been aware of basic Hermetic principles, there is no “good evidence” that he was a practicing Hermetic mage.
Hence, we can only conclude with a “theoretical framework”, in which we take the John gesture, not for its association with Leonardo, but in its pure Hermetic context. As such, it is the sign that identifies the “purifying fire”. Iamblichus wrote “he who approached the fire would receive a light from divinity”, underlining the link between fire and its derivative, light. Proclus in Timaeo wrote that “through divine fire all the stains produced by generations would be purged away”. But in the knowledge that John the Baptist is often associated with sheep, let us conclude with a quote from Ovid: “Fire purifies both the shepherd and the sheep.”
the free self, must also be timeless and spaceless and therefore, eternal.
where a quantum computer does a calc it would take a classical computer an infinite to do
I think I have freewill
When you think of God...
Originally posted by coffeesniffer
So my question should anybody with a scientific background (which i do not have) wish to answer how can all systems be interconnected yet the scientific community have us beleive our reality, universe or mulitiverse is contained within a boundary (at some level).
Originally posted by sinohptik
fun topic NAM
edit: the light will be shown though, it is already peeking over the horizon like a sunrise.
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
It's taking a lot of flak, however, and I'm beginning to realize that I chose the wrong name for my persona here, which isn't the most attractive and inviting way to share these ideas, as if I'm some sort of authority on the "new age", when in truth these are very difficult and challenging concepts to integrate and to "grok". Me every time I have an ah ha, and am starting to roll with it and into it, poof, next thing you know I've forgotten all about it and am quickly reverting back to the "old way" of being and thinking and doing. The quantum physicists themselves say the same thing, that during the day, they're right out there pushing the envelopes of metaphysical realities, then they get in their car, drive home and pretend like there's no correlation with real reality at all.
I sure wonder what life was like way way back in ancient India, or Egypt, or if there was some sort of cataclysmic flood of some kind, what life was like pre-deluvian in the last golden age - heck I long for what life was like back in the 70's and 80's!
Can a person change their user name here btw? I'll have to look into that, because I'm pushing people away from these concepts in some sort of rebellion that thinks embracing these things will CRUSH ego and somehow take away from their own freedom of thought or something like that, when all the while I'm just trying to man the door of liberation and eternal life.
Then again, any real doorman worth his salt will hold his ground and there's bound to be the occasional "incident" or "push back" every now and again, eh?
Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by NewAgeMan
Ill be back momentarily to edit (as it seems you are still doing too, so it works out)
Wanted to say, have some stars! Personally, i kind of forgot i could do that
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by sinohptik
people either understand and then reject it, or reject it out of hand as nothing but childishness, which it is, but happily and humorously motivated, just for the heck of it, since this nothingness or everythingness (both) that we're starting to "grok" is wide open really, and always has been, there are no secrets, it's always been eternity now at some level, so here we are again, eternity now. So now what? I say, hi, let's party, let's have some fun and enjoyment, and hold loving kindness to one another, since that's the only thing that motivates me in the space of nothing, what used to be a space of radical transformative forgiveness, until I came to realize that I'm actually forgiven and included in eternity already always, as my condition of salvation by the work of the Lord, which if done for anyone, then it was/is (no such thing as time in the conventional sense) done for one and all, and for all-time, whether they actually believe in it, and accept it, or him, or not - since unconditional is unconditional, right? Free is free. Love is Love. It cannot say "worship me" or you'll be cast aside, that's not loving at all! How foolish we were and we all were, at some level, somewhere down the line, we all screwed up! What can we do - but learn..
What did Bush say, stumbling...
"Fool me once, shame on, shame on...you - fool me twice we won't get fooled again." lol
And so if we are "re-cognizing" this now, again, as if for the first time, then, let's neither forget, nor turn these very discussions into a new religion!
And Jesus he would have rathered have fun I'm sure, than what he had to go through, so that too's been done already, we don't need to keep on repeating history, or keep on crucifying our own brother.
So how much pain and sorrow then do we have to carry, and is there a sufficient amount of love and compassion to carry it the rest of the way? If anything I'm here to say hell ya! : )
What does this have to do with quantum reality?
Well, I'm talking about the unconditioned ground of being as a mutual shared domain of infinite possibility AND the freedom to choose.
And i've been to this space before, as have many, and let me tell you, once you get present to the fear, and the absurd nonsense at your own expense on the other side of that, and get over the gigglies, then, in that space of nothing (just breathing), there's only one thing to do? Talk to someone, and listen. What are we to talk ABOUT? We could talk about nothing, or, about everything, or anything in between, but let's not lose ourselves in attachment again either, by talking about the same old crap which got us into this mess to begin with!
Let us begin a new conversation.
Originally posted by sinohptik
Wait, what were we talking about?