In a Land of Psychopaths Psychopathic Behaviour is the Norm

The following by Michael Kiefer
The Arizona Republic

Details about Loughner
More details emerged Monday about the strange and defiant behavior of 22-year-old Jared Loughner, accused in the shooting rampage at a Tucson-area grocery store Saturday:

- Classmate Mark DeBeliso, 19, said Loughner shouted out questions concerning the apocalypse and death six or seven times during one 90-minute algebra class at Pima Community College in July.

"It was the kind of stuff where you'd stop and think, 'What in the world is this kid talking about?'" DeBeliso said. When reprimanded, Loughner "would sit there with a grin on his face and mumble something to himself."

- Angel Amado, a sophomore in the same class, said Loughner smirked "all the time" and would laugh and giggle randomly. He would protest quizzes or tests to his professor, according to Amado, telling his professor, "We don't need to take quizzes. How do I know you're not trying to brainwash me?"

- Loughner was suspended Sept. 29, according to the college, after having five "contacts" with campus police for classroom and library disruptions at two campuses and for filming a YouTube video that "claims that the College is illegal according to the U.S. Constitution." He was told not to return unless he obtained "a mental health clearance indicating, in the opinion of a mental health professional, his presence at the College does not present a danger to himself or others," officials said.

- Loughner's behavior caused him to lose a job as a volunteer dog walker at Tucson's Pima Animal Care Center, where officials say he worked from January to March and inexplicably put puppies at risk by walking them into a parvovirus quarantine area several times in the same day.

"It was like he didn't understand," manager Kim Janes said. "The supervisor had to remind him over and over . . . He didn't seem to get it."

After being told the puppies could get sick and that he should not be walking them in that area, Loughner continued to do so, Janes said. The manager described the behavior as almost willful.

- A neighbor who identified himself only as Jon, age 60, said Loughner's family was "probably the best neighbors we ever had," but he said of Jared: "He'd never talk. He'd turn his back and walk away from you."

- Neighbor Anthony Woods, 19, described Loughner as "very to himself . . . a very mellow guy, almost depressed."

Though they'd been neighbors for seven years, Woods said he and Loughner "never had a real conversation. . . . He's not much of a conversationalist kind of a person. Very angry."

Woods said Loughner erupted in anger once when the Woods family forgot to remove a trash bin from the curb after pickup.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a land of psychopaths dangerously anti-social, predatory behaviour is accepted as normal, ergo, it does not glaringly stand out enough for authourities to do anything about it.

Professionals not only dispute whether there is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, but among those that believe there is a difference, there is dispute over what those differences are:

-Sociopaths and psychopaths are both classed as anti-social personality disorders.
-Both types of person enjoy cruelty, feel lack normal human emotions of guilt, and are unable to form emotional bonds with others.
-Sociopaths generally behave in a disorganized, erratic manner.
-Psychopaths generally behave outwardly normal but will engage in elaborate plots to manipulate or harm those around them.
-“Being right” is essential to the psychopath’s egoic self. They create an idealized view of themselves where they are better than everyone else around them. They become rugged individualists standing outside the pack contributing nothing to the Higher Good.

The need to be right has become especially prevalent in the rise of the Christian fundamentalist movement, where evangelists claim to know the one true way. Of course we need to include many politicians in here as well myriad others. Although this superiority complex can be vast, it actually masks deep insecurities and an unstable foundation.

When your country is governed by psychopaths everyone is in very deep trouble. I do not include President Obama in this category.

A psychopath views other people as objects created to fulfill their whims, desires, appetites and fantasies.
Psychopaths (and sociopaths) tend to be cruel, manipulative and may enjoy causing pain to others. They also tend to lie compulsively, believe themselves to be perfect, and feel no remorse for their actions. The most common characteristic of psychopaths is a lack of conscience.

Noted Canadian Dr. Robert Hare characterizes sociopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret." Sociopaths are defined by a disregard for social obligation and a lack of concern for the feelings of others. They display pathological egocentricity, shallow emotions, lack of insight, poor control of impulsiveness including a low tolerance for frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression."

The above describes so many folk out there (and some here in the forums of ATS). Most of us have experienced office managers, foremen and others with some small authority who wield it like a weapon in the workplace. Unfortunately, this behaviour is often rewarded by promotion so the social predators enter into higher positions of authority.

Unfortunately, the above descriptions can be applied to police forces, definitely military, lawyers, professors, doctors, politicians, religious leaders, dentists or any manner of man or woman in any capacity including neighbours across the street and most nations of the world but the USA seems to exemplify this to the extreme. Children massacre other children, murder parents and the other way around. Road rage serves as an excuse to severely harm or kill another motorist for the smallest real or imagined infraction. Politicians incite hateful madness through violent, reckless rhetoric and act surprised when individuals believe their hateful lies and take action. Housewives murder their children to begin a new life with the guy who doesn't want a ready-made family. Family men murder their families to spare them pain. Corporations and medical insurance companies place profit above compassion, human dignity and welfare. Medical professionals place their loyalty in drug companies (which make billions!) instead of the welfare of their patients. It is insanity. Pure insanity in a nation run amok.

As long as the authorities, who are supposed to protect the people, continue to ignore and allow such unrestricted criminal behaviour to be unleashed upon their citizens the psychopaths and sociopaths will continue to rule throughout all walks of life using others as fodder to feed their demented insatiable appetites.

The Jared Loughners of the world do not stand out amongst such unrestricted violent behaviour so they are not held accountable until they commit an unspeakable crime. Why are these people running around freely even though their behaviour (for years) indicates serious problematic issues?

We will not go into the behaviour of politicians here.

What we have here is a massive epidemic of "Social Retardation",and I am not saying that the arizona shooter is justified or condemned in any way.

If I were there to witness the event myself,I would KNOW.

But since I wasn't,the whole thing could be anything at all,or nothing but fiction

Nothing so unusual has happened here,it would be much less notable of an event if some government stuffed shirts were not among the victims.

Originally posted by Elderlight
In a land of psychopaths dangerously anti-social, predatory behaviour is accepted as normal, ergo, it does not glaringly stand out enough for authourities to do anything about it.

Don't you mean in a world of psychopaths...?

I mean it isn't just here in America that these things happen, right?

Originally posted by Elderlight
When your country is governed by psychopaths everyone is in very deep trouble. I do not include President Obama in this category.

Please tell me you aren't just talking about America...

Originally posted by Elderlight
A psychopath views other people...

I have been called both a psychopath, and a sociopath. Though I am unsure if a "professional" has called me either, it is possible my memory (long term) is terrible. (Though I just admitted a fault, does that negate me from being either?)

Anyway, I just popped in to make sure this wasn't a "America is full of crazies, but no one else is." type of thread. I am sure you meant that the whole world is a mess, and not just my country...

With the data at this point, we can not state with any clinical certainty that Loughner was a psychopath.

There is too much "exculpatory" information to rule out the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder.

He was obviously suffering from a full-blown psychotic process. He talked to himself, most likely suffered auditory hallucinations, evidenced an illogical and flawed flow of thought, was socially awkward, and had a great deal of difficulty maintaining positive/prosocial interpersonal interactions.

To the best of my knowledge, he had not been in trouble with the law, or had a history of conduct disorder as a child/adolescent.

Each of these things could conceivably rule out the diagnosis of ASPD and, thus, the notion of him technically being psychopath. We could possibly justify saying that he has antisocial or psychopathic features to his personality, but no enough to warrant tagging him with the actual Axis II diagnosis.

Simply put...he's just too damn crazy to be a psychopath.

Very good (if not tremendously long) thread. I was able to receive some interesting insight into more about this young man's life that I had not previously known. I just wanted to reply to a couple of things inside of your thread.

Firstly, according to psychiatry/psychology, the terms sociopath and psychopath are one in the same and completely interchangeable. There is no clinical difference. That doesn't mean that there isn't a colloquial difference in the terms, I think as a society we have come to understand those things differently and formed a stricter definition between these two concepts. I have always thought of a sociopath as a completely common condition inside all people, but that it becomes a label when it reaches extremes. That is the same for all things, really...we all have the ability to have mood swings, ups and downs, but not until those swings become extreme do we bear the label bipolar. I think the term sociopath describes the separation between the inward monologue and the outward appearance. When we go to the grocery store, we don't behave like ourselves, we behave like society expects us to behave. Does that mean that the "real" us disappears and dissolves, no, we simply suppress it and put on a mask in order to make it quietly and peacefully through our day. It's something we all do. But, when a persons inner self becomes extremely twisted with thoughts and desires of violence or sexual degeneracy, and that person is still able to maintain a public face that does bely that inner tormoil, then the person has become a clinical sociopath. The BTK killer would be a perfect example; inside a demented killer, outside a deacon at his church.

The only other thing that I wanted to comment on was the conundrum that some seem to think would be made simple by extreme intervention into the lives of people that we deem to be troubled. That can be a slippery slope, because you can't actually institute a state of pre-crime. It would seem horrible that we would need to wait for a crime to be committed before the person is ultimately identified, but there truly is no other way to proceed. You can't assume a person is violent or dangerous because their behaviors are askew. Right now there are probably about 1.2 million people in America who are equally as strange and off-putting as JLL that will never hurt another. What if we just locked them up on the presumption that they might? That would be wrong. And then men like the BTK killer would thrive because we would never assume such an upright and "normal" person could commit such acts of atrocity.

Hey, great thread! I look forward to more of your posts...

reply to post by adigregorio


The US encourages its citizens to develop rugged individualism which also contributes to the development of psychopatic characteristics. This is the focus for now.

reply to post by robinmorningstar


ATS is a supposed to be a safe place to post thoughts, although most of us zealously guard our identities just in case, and I posted these thoughts today. I recognise that the line between the states of psychopathy and sociopathy is extremely tenuous. In my mind these states are one and the same.

When we meet others' expectations of behaviour we are being dishonest and covert ourselves. When I go out there I am the same person I am in my home. Husband and I are good friends so we are naturally courteous to the other. This is not a social mask I wear out in public....it is how I am. When I do not feel like socializing I go to another room and husband honours my need for solitude as I do for him. In public I often prefer to be solo and indicate this through body language. I continue to remain respectful, courteous and gently firm, if approached by someone who wishes to interact when I wish to be alone. How do I acheive this? By zoning into journal writing, reading, doing a crossword puzzle or simply sitting with my eyes closed as I contentedly hold a cup of hot something in my hand. These are all obvious visual cues that I wish to be alone, ergo, few interrupt this solitude. I consider the vast majority of folk to be "good" people.

For me meeting society's, and/or individuals, expectations is agreeing to wear myriad masks dictated by others and I am unwilling to compromise myself in such a false manner. I do not attend groups or functions that have these expectations so there is no room for conflict. It would be wonderful if others also made the choice to develop their personalities to a sane, balanced, mature level so that how they present themselves to the world, and in their homes, is approprate everywhere. We would then live in a harmonious, honest, unmasked world with intentions openly displayed. Darkness lives behind masks. I prefer the Light.

I opened this thread to provoke more profound thoughts about what we allow to occur in our society by ignoring the anti-social behaviour of those who could eventually do harm unto others. I am not suggesting that we lock up all folk who exhibit anti-social behaviour because there are far too many maladjusted people out there, and you are quite correct, horrendous mistakes would be made. Truthfully, I have no solutions. I just wanted to garner opinions on the topic to peruse and it appears that this goal already has been achieved. My mind is prepared to include others' ideas, at any time, to further expand comprehension of those with whom I share this composite reality.

Thank you for your insightful, intelligent contribution.

reply to post by Elderlight


Then you have yourself an offended American.

You are free to have your armchair, and the PHD that comes with it. I disagree with your assesment, there are far worse governments out there.

Of course, it isn't as easy to point a finger at oneself.

No worries though, I may be psychopathic. Who cares what those people think, they are less than you...right?

Hypocrisy, ug.

Originally posted by Elderlight
reply to post by adigregorio

 

The US encourages its citizens to develop rugged individualism which also contributes to the development of psychopatic characteristics. This is the focus for now.

Please point out how psychopathy has its genesis in "rugged individualism."

Thanks.

Originally posted by MMPI2

Originally posted by Elderlight
reply to post by adigregorio

 

The US encourages its citizens to develop rugged individualism which also contributes to the development of psychopatic characteristics. This is the focus for now.

Please point out how psychopathy has its genesis in "rugged individualism."

Thanks.

It is thought that the dedicating one’s self to the development of “rugged individualism” creates an outlaw-ish persona. As the person comes to perceive themselves as an “special” individual, who has no need of community, a narcissism creeps in which allows that individual to begin to believe that he deserves anything he wants and that the method of achieving it is of no consequence. To me this is the beginning of psychopathic/sociopathic behavior.

Adages relating to this:
- The end excuses any evil.
- The end justifies the means.
-"Anything is acceptable if it leads to a successful result." (First use in the United States by Michael Wigglesworth (1631-1705), American clergyman and poet. From "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings")

It seems that some Americans tend to idolize sociopathic behavior and even reward it. For instance, many consider murderer/thief Jesse James to be a hero. Or the Alamo being defined as loss of heroes defending what is theirs; the land belonged to the Mexicans and they were defending their homeland not the other way around. Also during the prohibition era a brutal gangster such as John Dillinger is still admired and perhaps today’s numerous young thugs model the psychopathic behaviour of these “rugged individualists”. Contemporary gang members admire each others ability to be absolutely brutally, merciless. This behaviour is apparent in the corporate world and taints all levels of society in general. Were we conditioned, instead, to joining into (non-religious) community with each other I suspect the reality would be quite different today.

This is a major characteristic of psychopathy in my mind. The pursuit of rugged individuality does not contribute to the Higher Good of All; it is a singular, selfish endeavour which can lead to a psychopathic mentality.

reply to post by Elderlight


Most people just do there best not to kill one another. But i bet most pubs in england have police going there on weekends planning what is effect murder campaigns against people locals do not like.

So most people like the idea of murder, and cannot stand passive people like me, and its the passive people they see as dangerous, lol. Irony or what. They cannot stand that someone on this earth is not like them, and being a beast like them.

Thats alot of what happens in west.

Originally posted by Elderlight
Were we conditioned, instead, to joining into (non-religious) community with each other I suspect the reality would be quite different today.

What happened to the ends not justifying the means?

I don't think we should "condition" anyone, isn't that the problem?

And again, you seem to think you are better than sociopaths and/or psychopaths. Why are you? And if you are, isn't that one of the symptoms?

Furthermore, looking at how you talk about socio/psychopaths you seem to regard them as "things" rather than people with disorders. Again, is that not one of the symptoms you pointed out in the OP?

Originally posted by Elderlight
This is a major characteristic of psychopathy in my mind. The pursuit of rugged individuality does not contribute to the Higher Good of All; it is a singular, selfish endeavour which can lead to a psychopathic mentality.

LOL

Who decides the "Higher Good of All"?

And selfish? So I am selfish for not putting your needs in front of mine...Doesn't that make you selfish for wanting your needs first?

How about using a word like "consideration" instead of selfish...Though it would hurt your posotion, because you are inconsiderate of humans with mental handicapps (such as sociopathy or psychopathy.)

A psycho/sociopath is inconsiderate of their fellow man. Selfish, well that is a term invented by people that get the short end of a stick, and want the big end.

Sorry, this whole thread is BS. Many other countries are FAR worse than here, in terms of "crazies". We could look at Britain's mental state. Tons of fun going on over there. What about Greece? France? Germany?

(Ooo, look I mentioned Germany, we know who came from there right? Or is he American now?)

It is easy to stand on a box and say, I hate Americans. You can even call us the land of Sociopaths. Doesn't make you right though, no amount of soap-boxing will do that.

Of course, if you have some sources that show our country is way worse than all the others I welcome the data. But again, I may be one of those sociopaths, or psychopath. So who cares? Right? I mean I am less than, I deserve less than, and I better get less than!

Originally posted by Elderlight
The following by Michael Kiefer
The Arizona Republic

Details about Loughner
More details emerged Monday about the strange and defiant behavior of 22-year-old Jared Loughner, accused in the shooting rampage at a Tucson-area grocery store Saturday:

- Classmate Mark DeBeliso, 19, said Loughner shouted out questions concerning the apocalypse and death six or seven times during one 90-minute algebra class at Pima Community College in July.

"It was the kind of stuff where you'd stop and think, 'What in the world is this kid talking about?'" DeBeliso said. When reprimanded, Loughner "would sit there with a grin on his face and mumble something to himself."

- Angel Amado, a sophomore in the same class, said Loughner smirked "all the time" and would laugh and giggle randomly. He would protest quizzes or tests to his professor, according to Amado, telling his professor, "We don't need to take quizzes. How do I know you're not trying to brainwash me?"

- Loughner was suspended Sept. 29, according to the college, after having five "contacts" with campus police for classroom and library disruptions at two campuses and for filming a YouTube video that "claims that the College is illegal according to the U.S. Constitution." He was told not to return unless he obtained "a mental health clearance indicating, in the opinion of a mental health professional, his presence at the College does not present a danger to himself or others," officials said.

- Loughner's behavior caused him to lose a job as a volunteer dog walker at Tucson's Pima Animal Care Center, where officials say he worked from January to March and inexplicably put puppies at risk by walking them into a parvovirus quarantine area several times in the same day.

"It was like he didn't understand," manager Kim Janes said. "The supervisor had to remind him over and over . . . He didn't seem to get it."

After being told the puppies could get sick and that he should not be walking them in that area, Loughner continued to do so, Janes said. The manager described the behavior as almost willful.

- A neighbor who identified himself only as Jon, age 60, said Loughner's family was "probably the best neighbors we ever had," but he said of Jared: "He'd never talk. He'd turn his back and walk away from you."

- Neighbor Anthony Woods, 19, described Loughner as "very to himself . . . a very mellow guy, almost depressed."

Though they'd been neighbors for seven years, Woods said he and Loughner "never had a real conversation. . . . He's not much of a conversationalist kind of a person. Very angry."

Woods said Loughner erupted in anger once when the Woods family forgot to remove a trash bin from the curb after pickup.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a land of psychopaths dangerously anti-social, predatory behaviour is accepted as normal, ergo, it does not glaringly stand out enough for authourities to do anything about it.

Professionals not only dispute whether there is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, but among those that believe there is a difference, there is dispute over what those differences are:

-Sociopaths and psychopaths are both classed as anti-social personality disorders.
-Both types of person enjoy cruelty, feel lack normal human emotions of guilt, and are unable to form emotional bonds with others.
-Sociopaths generally behave in a disorganized, erratic manner.
-Psychopaths generally behave outwardly normal but will engage in elaborate plots to manipulate or harm those around them.
-“Being right” is essential to the psychopath’s egoic self. They create an idealized view of themselves where they are better than everyone else around them. They become rugged individualists standing outside the pack contributing nothing to the Higher Good.

The need to be right has become especially prevalent in the rise of the Christian fundamentalist movement, where evangelists claim to know the one true way. Of course we need to include many politicians in here as well myriad others. Although this superiority complex can be vast, it actually masks deep insecurities and an unstable foundation.

When your country is governed by psychopaths everyone is in very deep trouble. I do not include President Obama in this category.

A psychopath views other people as objects created to fulfill their whims, desires, appetites and fantasies.
Psychopaths (and sociopaths) tend to be cruel, manipulative and may enjoy causing pain to others. They also tend to lie compulsively, believe themselves to be perfect, and feel no remorse for their actions. The most common characteristic of psychopaths is a lack of conscience.

Noted Canadian Dr. Robert Hare characterizes sociopaths as "intraspecies predators who use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs. Lacking in conscience and in feelings for others, they cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret." Sociopaths are defined by a disregard for social obligation and a lack of concern for the feelings of others. They display pathological egocentricity, shallow emotions, lack of insight, poor control of impulsiveness including a low tolerance for frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression."

The above describes so many folk out there (and some here in the forums of ATS). Most of us have experienced office managers, foremen and others with some small authority who wield it like a weapon in the workplace. Unfortunately, this behaviour is often rewarded by promotion so the social predators enter into higher positions of authority.

Unfortunately, the above descriptions can be applied to police forces, definitely military, lawyers, professors, doctors, politicians, religious leaders, dentists or any manner of man or woman in any capacity including neighbours across the street and most nations of the world but the USA seems to exemplify this to the extreme. Children massacre other children, murder parents and the other way around. Road rage serves as an excuse to severely harm or kill another motorist for the smallest real or imagined infraction. Politicians incite hateful madness through violent, reckless rhetoric and act surprised when individuals believe their hateful lies and take action. Housewives murder their children to begin a new life with the guy who doesn't want a ready-made family. Family men murder their families to spare them pain. Corporations and medical insurance companies place profit above compassion, human dignity and welfare. Medical professionals place their loyalty in drug companies (which make billions!) instead of the welfare of their patients. It is insanity. Pure insanity in a nation run amok.

As long as the authorities, who are supposed to protect the people, continue to ignore and allow such unrestricted criminal behaviour to be unleashed upon their citizens the psychopaths and sociopaths will continue to rule throughout all walks of life using others as fodder to feed their demented insatiable appetites.

The Jared Loughners of the world do not stand out amongst such unrestricted violent behaviour so they are not held accountable until they commit an unspeakable crime. Why are these people running around freely even though their behaviour (for years) indicates serious problematic issues?

We will not go into the behaviour of politicians here.

edit on 11-1-2011 by Elderlight because: spelling errors

edit on 11-1-2011 by Elderlight because: grammar

edit on 11-1-2011 by Elderlight because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by Elderlight

Originally posted by Elderlight
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I am replying to my own thread for good reason. I did not get back to the computer in time to edit this piece therefore I neglected to give credit for the info below. Here are the links:
www.differencebetween.net...
and
www.wisegeek.com...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Professionals not only dispute whether there is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, but among those that believe there is a difference, there is dispute over what those differences are:

-Sociopaths and psychopaths are both classed as anti-social personality disorders.
-Both types of person enjoy cruelty, feel lack normal human emotions of guilt, and are unable to form emotional bonds with others.
-Sociopaths generally behave in a disorganized, erratic manner.
-Psychopaths generally behave outwardly normal but will engage in elaborate plots to manipulate or harm those around them.
-“Being right” is essential to the psychopath’s egoic self. They create an idealized view of themselves where they are better than everyone else around them. They become rugged individualists standing outside the pack contributing nothing to the Higher Good.

A psychopath views other people as objects created to fulfill their whims, desires, appetites and fantasies.
Psychopaths (and sociopaths) tend to be cruel, manipulative and may enjoy causing pain to others. They also tend to lie compulsively, believe themselves to be perfect, and feel no remorse for their actions. The most common characteristic of psychopaths is a lack of conscience.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I shall endeavor to be more careful about assigning credit to those who deserve it in future posts.

edit on 11-1-2011 by Elderlight because: spelling errors

edit on 11-1-2011 by Elderlight because: grammar

edit on 11-1-2011 by Elderlight because: (no reason given)

So you just repost what you already posted?

Okay...I guess...

You didn't answer my question though, you said we should condition people. Right after you said the ends do not justify the means.

So which is it?

(I know the answer, it is the same for all moral pushing. The "right way" is your way.)

Heh

Originally posted by adigregorio
So you just repost what you already posted?

Okay...I guess...

You didn't answer my question though, you said we should condition people. Right after you said the ends do not justify the means.

So which is it?

(I know the answer, it is the same for all moral pushing. The "right way" is your way.)

Heh

Please read the ATS site owner's message to everyone , under Political Madness,
Thread: I'm pissed!! (political trolls and hacks),

He talks about trolls such as you and how to cope with your imbecilic remarks. So you will be ignored henceforward.
Advice: DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

reply to post by Elderlight


Apparently the way to cope is to ignore, and insult...

Annnyway

As I had thought:

Originally posted by adigregorio
... I just popped in to make sure this wasn't a "America is full of crazies, but no one else is." type of thread. I am sure you meant that the whole world is a mess, and not just my country...

Also, lets look at some points I made that were ignored:

Originally posted by adigregorio
Who decides the "Higher Good of All"?

Originally posted by adigregorio
And selfish? So I am selfish for not putting your needs in front of mine...Doesn't that make you selfish for wanting your needs first?

How about using a word like "consideration" instead of selfish...Though it would hurt your posotion, because you are inconsiderate of humans with mental handicapps (such as sociopathy or psychopathy.)

This one is pretty fun:

Originally posted by adigregorio
It is easy to stand on a box and say, I hate Americans. You can even call us the land of Sociopaths. Doesn't make you right though, no amount of soap-boxing will do that.

THIS one is pretty important:

Originally posted by adigregorio
...if you have some sources that show our country is way worse than all the others I welcome the data.

And last, but not least:

Originally posted by adigregorio
I mean I am less than, I deserve less than, and I better get less than!

Thank you for proving my point.

PS (I am not a troll, I am a human. Please stop thinking of me as a thing.)

reply to post by andy1033


What do UK pubs have to do with this topic? Are they populated by drunken psychopaths and you are trying to make a comparison? I do not comprehend.

Originally posted by Elderlight

Originally posted by MMPI2

Originally posted by Elderlight
reply to post by adigregorio

 

The US encourages its citizens to develop rugged individualism which also contributes to the development of psychopatic characteristics. This is the focus for now.

Please point out how psychopathy has its genesis in "rugged individualism."

Thanks.

It is thought that the dedicating one’s self to the development of “rugged individualism” creates an outlaw-ish persona. As the person comes to perceive themselves as an “special” individual, who has no need of community, a narcissism creeps in which allows that individual to begin to believe that he deserves anything he wants and that the method of achieving it is of no consequence. To me this is the beginning of psychopathic/sociopathic behavior.

Adages relating to this:
- The end excuses any evil.
- The end justifies the means.
-"Anything is acceptable if it leads to a successful result." (First use in the United States by Michael Wigglesworth (1631-1705), American clergyman and poet. From "Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings")

It seems that some Americans tend to idolize sociopathic behavior and even reward it. For instance, many consider murderer/thief Jesse James to be a hero. Or the Alamo being defined as loss of heroes defending what is theirs; the land belonged to the Mexicans and they were defending their homeland not the other way around. Also during the prohibition era a brutal gangster such as John Dillinger is still admired and perhaps today’s numerous young thugs model the psychopathic behaviour of these “rugged individualists”. Contemporary gang members admire each others ability to be absolutely brutally, merciless. This behaviour is apparent in the corporate world and taints all levels of society in general. Were we conditioned, instead, to joining into (non-religious) community with each other I suspect the reality would be quite different today.

This is a major characteristic of psychopathy in my mind. The pursuit of rugged individuality does not contribute to the Higher Good of All; it is a singular, selfish endeavour which can lead to a psychopathic mentality.

Nah...I think you're way off base with your hypothesis.

Rugged Individualism (Frontier culture in America) was first presented as an important historical event at a meeting of the World Congress of Historians held in Chicago in the summer of 1893. A young professor from the University Wisconsin named Frederick Jackson Turner read his social analysis entitled "The Significance of the Frontier in American History." In it, he told Americans they were a rugged, self-made race of men, forged in adversity through the pioneering experience, reborn and purified into a breed unique on earth.

Maybe a more accurate and less romanticized view of what the uninhabited American frontier provided was space where people were able to choose to live among like-minded people in isolation from others and the raw material necessary to do it. And the hardship of the pioneer experience did forge a new society by requiring the people to drop some of the cultural makeup, to undergo a trait reduction and simplification. Meanwhile, those traits which were retained became more important and formed a base to which new traits were added to form a new culture.

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"Rugged Individualism" - Herbert Hoover, 1928:

The greatness of America has grown out of a political and social system and a method of a lack of governmental control of economic forces distinctly its own ­our American system ­which has carried this great experiment in human welfare farther than ever before in history.... And I again repeat that the departure from our American system... will jeopardize the very liberty and freedom of our people, and will destroy equality of opportunity not only to ourselves, but to our children... (www.pinzler.com...). Read more: wiki.answers.com...

So, the notion of "rugged individualism" has more to do with the greatness men can achieve if left to work, live and achieve without the interference of an "elite" group of "central planners." More has been created, more people have lived a greater quality of life, and more have enjoyed freedom and liberty from the shackles of sociocultural servitude and enslavement because of the "rugged individualist" mindset. I think this fact is why the european-style intellectuals, socialists and fascists hate the concept so much.

My own definition of the term would simply be "to live and let live."

Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by Elderlight

 

... I just popped in to make sure this wasn't a "America is full of crazies, but no one else is." type of thread. I am sure you meant that the whole world is a mess, and not just my country...

...it really doesnt matter if this a bash the usofa thread or not... we all have opinions... elderlight is expressing hers... we dont have to agree with every point or any of them... also, the article in the op was not her writing but authored by someone else and, of course, its sensationalism because thats the norm nowadays... for what its worth, i agree with you in that there are all levels of psychopaths everywhere and i seriously doubt that any country is immune...