Student Jailed For Throwing Fire Extinguisher!!!

Originally posted by johnyelland1234
reply to post by TrueBrit

 

Some good points TrueBrit.

I too work for the British Government and am currently doing 12 hours per day 6 days a week. Doing very hard graft outside. We are having cuts all the time and we have to justify ourselves to keep our jobs and to stop civilian companies stepping in. My workplace is a classic example of overspending because 'thats the price they charge'.

Recently we paid 400,000 pounds to have an airfield dug up and a different type of grass planted to deter birds from landing on it. Ultimatily (sp?) to stop bird strikes on aircraft. Total waste of money.

However, Democracy works if everyone plays fair. Student riots simply used more of the governments funds correcting the result of that riot.

The money that got spent tidying up after the protest was turned (not nessacarily by genuine protestors) to riot is nothing, absolutely nothing in comparison with the total money cost of what the government are doing now. Hell the protesters could have driven tanks through the bank of England and it still wouldnt touch what the governments actions will cost us in years to come.

My point was that if people want to have something, they can't kick off and use riots to try and 'persuade' the government to give them what they want. This will only make matters worse.

It actually reminds me of a screaming child wanting chocolate, even after the parents said no.

The government can't make everyone happy, I left school with very little but still found a good job and now I make the most in my family.

The UK is very strapped for cash, and there will be cuts. Although I doubt it'll be to 'Foreign Aid', thats too important to our country

I do not understand how you can take the attitude that kicking off and rioting is somehow wrong. This country has a history of public action, going as far as civil war, to get what the public want. Guy Fawkes attempted to blow up parliment and every person in it (God bless him) and is to this day a national treasure , with his own "night" where we simulate his actions by letting off fireworks.
The other thing is that the government are not our parents, WE are supposed to have the power, and they are supposed to do , exactly what we order them to do, precisely when we order them to do it! The government are not supposed to have ANY power to go against the will of the people, because that is not democracy, and democracy is the system of politics and government that we are supposed to live under.

And on the point you make about you leaving school with nothing and none the less finding yourself a good job, thats great, and I am genuinely thrilled for you. But what you must understand is that you are extremely lucky. The fact that you have gainful employment alone, let alone the most lucrative in your family, is by no means typical of peoples expirience of the jobs market, and rather offers a stark reminder just how insane the gaps in the system are, that one person can be upheld by it, while the vast , overwhelming majority of people do not find themselves in such an enviable position. But do not be fooled by the governments bleating and whining about the debt margins. They know full well that in order to please EVERYONE they must deny companies like Mapely the right to own or run the offices of the HMRC or any other government department. They must stop spending money on blowing the snot out of a bunch of sand dwelling shepherds in locations that we can barely pronounce the names of, and they must at all costs stop cutting the vital services like health and education, without which this nation will cease to have any significance , save to remind future generations how not to do things.

What I am saying , is that until the government have made savings which have no effect on public service, like cancelling the Mapely contract, and then muscling the contract they would be in breach of, completely out of the picture, they have NO RIGHT to attack the services we pay for. Until every one of the parlimentary personages in westminister realise that they should be dressing in sacks, and driving only the cheapest cars, drinking only the crappiest booze, and living as if they were LESS than the people not more, only then will they have done everything they could to prevent cuts, and only then will the people be satisfied, and whats more, we should settle for nothing less than this.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
I do not understand how you can take the attitude that kicking off and rioting is somehow wrong.

Kicking off and rioting is wrong. They are given the right to protest, which is fine. I do not understand how you think rioting is OK.

People die in riots, usually innocents who are at the wrong place at the wrong time. It devastates families and ruins lives. They don't die in organised protests.

If that fire extinguisher landed on a Policeman, who would most likely have loved ones at home and he died. Would rioting still be OK?

Would it be the governments fault that the police officer died or the fault of the rioter who through it? All because he wanted to save a few grand in tuition fees to fuel his drinking binge on weekends.

Students don't know how lucky they are over here, I would kick every rioter out of the education system if they want to act like little punks.

Originally posted by johnyelland1234

Originally posted by TrueBrit
I do not understand how you can take the attitude that kicking off and rioting is somehow wrong.

Would it be the governments fault that the police officer died or the fault of the rioter who through it? All because he wanted to save a few grand in tuition fees to fuel his drinking binge on weekends.

Students don't know how lucky they are over here, I would kick every rioter out of the education system if they want to act like little punks.

First things first. Protest, even violent protest, is historicaly the most immediately effective in this country, I must cite again the civil war, which was basicaly organised violent protest against a system of governance that was quite simply unjustifiable. I see no real difference, other than the fact that we are expiriencing it in our time, rather than in a history book. If you dont like it, strap on a sheild and a riot helmet and make your opposition to it clear. Basicaly , pick a postition and take it to the streets and these things will be settled in a final and exacting manner.
The students were not protesting the fee rise in order to promote alcoholism, or even for thier own financial saftey , they were protesting so that in future years people from the lowest sectors of the community could actualy aspire, rather than being crushed by and made despondant by the ever widening gap between thier financial situation, and that required to get through university, and pay the fees off afterward.
If you cannot see that there are serious social issues involved with this unessacary increase in fees, which pertain to the class gap and the difference between the ability of the poorest folks in society to be socialy mobile, then you have clearly not been paying any attention to that which occurs beyond the tip of your nose.
You probably would kick every rioter out of the education system, and you are welcome to live in a country full of dullards with no capacity to stand up for the rights of others, but that country is not Britain, and that form of supplication is not that of any proud British citizen. If you want to be rolled over by overwhelming odds, and support what amounts to a financialy fascist governments stance on this subject, then I suggest going to France, which has a much richer history of surrender and general inability to protect its own rights or borders.
The riots in London were proof not of thuggery , but of the will of the people, that government cannot control us, and must stop attempting to reduce the ability of the lower classes to advance themselves, which is exactly the ONLY result of the measures they have installed.
The student who threw that extinguisher , as I have already mentioned, was very foolish to do so. That point is not in question. However, calling him a thug is not justified since he has no prior history of these forms of offence. Futhermore, the events that lead to his doing this act were likely to prove in years to come, to have been instigated by police infiltrators into the protest group. Agent provocatuers are rife in all protest based political groups, and it would be idiocy in the extreme to assume that the student groups are some exception to that. This makes it likely that the events leading to the dropping of the extingiusher, the presence of the protesters on the roof, the mood of the people involved (which is key to this entire event) was not purely that of the students but augmented by the egging on of an infiltrator somewhere in proceedings.
This matter is not as simple as right and wrong in terms of physical acts, but goes to all the deepest and darkest recesses of the way our nation operates, the oppresion of the poor by the rich, and the prevention of those from less well of families to attain what is thier absolute RIGHT to an education. We pay our taxes to keep these services as low cost as we can, and if the government refuse to do what they are asked in regards to it, then they should bare the responsibility for the consequences.
Quite frankly they are lucky there isnt a proper full scale bombs and bullets war happening in this nation right now, over these and other pressing issues, so before you start hollering about the frankly childlike and mortality free riots and protests, you might want to consider the alternative. The alternative being all those people who have seen thier rights taken from them, all those people in London who will not be able to afford to live there because of the housing benifit cut ( Im talking of course about the bus drivers, station cleaners, shelf stackers , coffee shop employees and bar staff amongst others that keep our capital clean and moving) some 82,000 of them, the creation of a segregational attitude to education, the support of banks and the frankly gutting attitude the government takes toward jobs, all those people affected by this, rising up and just utterly destroying the government physicaly and permanently. Its either these flare ups, or full scale war and I would like to know which you would rather have.

Originally posted by TrueBrit

Originally posted by johnyelland1234

Originally posted by TrueBrit
I do not understand how you can take the attitude that kicking off and rioting is somehow wrong.

Would it be the governments fault that the police officer died or the fault of the rioter who through it? All because he wanted to save a few grand in tuition fees to fuel his drinking binge on weekends.

Students don't know how lucky they are over here, I would kick every rioter out of the education system if they want to act like little punks.

First things first. Protest, even violent protest, is historicaly the most immediately effective in this country, I must cite again the civil war, which was basicaly organised violent protest against a system of governance that was quite simply unjustifiable. I see no real difference, other than the fact that we are expiriencing it in our time, rather than in a history book. If you dont like it, strap on a sheild and a riot helmet and make your opposition to it clear. Basicaly , pick a postition and take it to the streets and these things will be settled in a final and exacting manner.
The students were not protesting the fee rise in order to promote alcoholism, or even for thier own financial saftey , they were protesting so that in future years people from the lowest sectors of the community could actualy aspire, rather than being crushed by and made despondant by the ever widening gap between thier financial situation, and that required to get through university, and pay the fees off afterward.
If you cannot see that there are serious social issues involved with this unessacary increase in fees, which pertain to the class gap and the difference between the ability of the poorest folks in society to be socialy mobile, then you have clearly not been paying any attention to that which occurs beyond the tip of your nose.
You probably would kick every rioter out of the education system, and you are welcome to live in a country full of dullards with no capacity to stand up for the rights of others, but that country is not Britain, and that form of supplication is not that of any proud British citizen. If you want to be rolled over by overwhelming odds, and support what amounts to a financialy fascist governments stance on this subject, then I suggest going to France, which has a much richer history of surrender and general inability to protect its own rights or borders.
The riots in London were proof not of thuggery , but of the will of the people, that government cannot control us, and must stop attempting to reduce the ability of the lower classes to advance themselves, which is exactly the ONLY result of the measures they have installed.
The student who threw that extinguisher , as I have already mentioned, was very foolish to do so. That point is not in question. However, calling him a thug is not justified since he has no prior history of these forms of offence. Futhermore, the events that lead to his doing this act were likely to prove in years to come, to have been instigated by police infiltrators into the protest group. Agent provocatuers are rife in all protest based political groups, and it would be idiocy in the extreme to assume that the student groups are some exception to that. This makes it likely that the events leading to the dropping of the extingiusher, the presence of the protesters on the roof, the mood of the people involved (which is key to this entire event) was not purely that of the students but augmented by the egging on of an infiltrator somewhere in proceedings.
This matter is not as simple as right and wrong in terms of physical acts, but goes to all the deepest and darkest recesses of the way our nation operates, the oppresion of the poor by the rich, and the prevention of those from less well of families to attain what is thier absolute RIGHT to an education. We pay our taxes to keep these services as low cost as we can, and if the government refuse to do what they are asked in regards to it, then they should bare the responsibility for the consequences.
Quite frankly they are lucky there isnt a proper full scale bombs and bullets war happening in this nation right now, over these and other pressing issues, so before you start hollering about the frankly childlike and mortality free riots and protests, you might want to consider the alternative. The alternative being all those people who have seen thier rights taken from them, all those people in London who will not be able to afford to live there because of the housing benifit cut ( Im talking of course about the bus drivers, station cleaners, shelf stackers , coffee shop employees and bar staff amongst others that keep our capital clean and moving) some 82,000 of them, the creation of a segregational attitude to education, the support of banks and the frankly gutting attitude the government takes toward jobs, all those people affected by this, rising up and just utterly destroying the government physicaly and permanently. Its either these flare ups, or full scale war and I would like to know which you would rather have.

Mate, most people have been brainwashed into the Ghandi fallacy. These people actually believe government pays attention to peaceful protest. Despite politicians stating outright that they'll ignore protestors and that we're irrelevant.

How many people have turned up to protest the war over the years? The biggest protests in decades have been in opposition to the war. And government did what? Did they heed public opinion? No, they ignored us and continue their war.

Furthermore it's not even legal to protest anymore. You need a government approved permit to protest! Or the police will beat you with sticks

Can you answer the question?

If a police officer, doing his job gets smashed on the head by a falling fire extinguisher and dies. Would it be worth it and would it be right?

You can spiel off a load of dribble about it happening in history and how it's the only way things are going to change until the cows come home.

The fact is rioting is wrong, whichever way you look at it and I doubt most people share your view.

The topic of thread is about the student that was jailed for throwing a fire extinguisher. He was WRONG, I don't care if someone egged him on to do it. He was the one that did it and he should be punished for it. The people that decided to riot that day did terrible things and don't deserve a golden pass through life.

As Xcathra said, you are not entitled to anything, why should you be? You pay taxes just like everyone else, so what? You have free education up to the age of 18, what more do you and these students want? A free car and house with a 20k lump sum?

Originally posted by johnyelland1234
Can you answer the question?

If a police officer, doing his job gets smashed on the head by a falling fire extinguisher and dies. Would it be worth it and would it be right?

You can spiel off a load of dribble about it happening in history and how it's the only way things are going to change until the cows come home.

The fact is rioting is wrong, whichever way you look at it and I doubt most people share your view.

The topic of thread is about the student that was jailed for throwing a fire extinguisher. He was WRONG, I don't care if someone egged him on to do it. He was the one that did it and he should be punished for it. The people that decided to riot that day did terrible things and don't deserve a golden pass through life.

As Xcathra said, you are not entitled to anything, why should you be? You pay taxes just like everyone else, so what? You have free education up to the age of 18, what more do you and these students want? A free car and house with a 20k lump sum?

Is the Police officer doing his job? I was under the impression the job of the Police was to serve the people. Not the interests of elite politicians. But maybe I have my head in Disney Land

NOBODY supports the throwing of the fire extinguisher. I stated myself it was a ridiculous and dangerous action. There was no need. Now if the police were endagering the lifes of protestors then I could lend myself to understand the action.

But to tar everyone with the same brush is laughable. The protestors were just in vandalising and entering the building. A single protestors threw an object off a roof that could have killed innocent people. He wasn't just. But he doesn't represent the protestors, he doesn't even represent the rioters! You're painting an incorrect picture of events to suit your world view.

If you really really want to go this route I can cite so many examples of police brutality you'll run for the hills.

The reality is if you leave the home counties you'll find the majority of working people support my position. We can't all afford to send our kids to Eton. And we haven't forgot about the Poll Tax Riots either. Violent protest is the only protest that's had notable effect in the last century.

You're also being deceitful regarding free education. Who's education was free? My education wasn't. My parents payed more than enough in tax to pay for my education. This is something you and likeminded individuals try to conceal in debates like this. Who pays for education, healthcare etc? We, the people pay. We pay with taxes. You want to create this illusion of government giving handouts with their own money and it won't wash!

Furthermore it would be nice if you stopped exagerating my position. Nobody is asking for a free car. What honest people are saying is if we weren't spending so much on bailing out banks and the war, they'd be no need to increase University fees. It's that simple.

Then get over it.

We can't afford to send our kids to the best schools, your probably 99.9% of the UK. We can't all go to the best schools, we can't all have 50k a year jobs, we can't all have a tiny mortgage and cheap fuel prices. Thats just the way it goes and thats life.

The government is trying to do it's job and they are well aware that they are broke, you should quit complaining and whining and see how it pans out.

The Police do a valuable service to the community, it's much like the military, they do what they're told or they get disciplined. They work to feed their families, so of course they are doing there jobs. How would the police be endangering the rioters? They have no guns, at most they'll have tasers and batons, which is for their protection when rioters endanger THEM.

If you like I can find even more links to articles that have 'the people' and 'students' committing violent crime, which would no doubt be alot worse if there were no Policing system.

Did you physically pay to go to school when you were under 18 and weren't paying tax? Thats free education to you.

People are sponging off the government because they can't be arsed to get a job and cost a wad of cash each year, do you go round their house and shout 'get a job you fat bum?' no, because you'd be badly hurt as a result.

Rioting gives people the chance to do bad things because the chance of them getting caught is slim compared to if they were by themselves.

Your parents have to pay tax regardless if they had kids or not.

I've already made it clear why we bailed out the banks and it's a sound move IMO, and as for the war, there's no doubt it's cost us alot of money, but also IMO, it was very worthwhile.

You still never answered the question.

reply to post by johnyelland1234


Ok I will answer your question. If a person decides that they are going to stand against the citizenry, then he ought to understand he is taking his life in his hands, but of course, if the kid had killed someone that day, then he would be ultimately responsible for his individual action on the day.
However, I stand by the point that PROTEST no matter how it is done is justified and further more badly needed, every day until the filth in parliment is either expunged , or torn apart in the street and replaced with something less vile.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by johnyelland1234

 

Ok I will answer your question. If a person decides that they are going to stand against the citizenry, then he ought to understand he is taking his life in his hands, but of course, if the kid had killed someone that day, then he would be ultimately responsible for his individual action on the day.
However, I stand by the point that PROTEST no matter how it is done is justified and further more badly needed, every day until the filth in parliment is either expunged , or torn apart in the street and replaced with something less vile.

The police weren't standing in the way of citizenry, they were there to control the riot and to make sure that damage caused was limited and controlled. They didn't get a memo from the government saying, get your sticks we want you to get rid of these students.

The police were there to uphold the law, students do not have the right to riot, rioting is illegal so therefore the police were there to uphold that law, which is their job.

Students are not above the law, i'm trying to get through to you that Rioting is illegal and wrong but I don't think you want to listen.

People do not have the right to riot and never will or should, it's a horrendous act thats more akin to primates than a society of a first world country.

reply to post by johnyelland1234


Its legality is no where near as important as wether it is right or not. In a choice between riots and a deafening silence when peoples rights are being erroded, our tax pounds wasted on things that we do not benifit from (billions wasted by government departments at whitehall level appart from anything else) I would rather have bloody havock , carnage at every corner of the capital and a parlimentarian hung off of every lampost in parliment square, than ever, EVER , let those out of touch, ignorant lumps of walking genetic failiure in the houses of commons, make one more move without hearing a shout of denial.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by johnyelland1234

 

Its legality is no where near as important as wether it is right or not. In a choice between riots and a deafening silence when peoples rights are being erroded, our tax pounds wasted on things that we do not benifit from (billions wasted by government departments at whitehall level appart from anything else) I would rather have bloody havock , carnage at every corner of the capital and a parlimentarian hung off of every lampost in parliment square, than ever, EVER , let those out of touch, ignorant lumps of walking genetic failiure in the houses of commons, make one more move without hearing a shout of denial.

Wow, well you'll be behind bars before the government even notices your 'shouts of denial'.

i'm done talking on this thread, I have nothing else to put across to you.

Originally posted by johnyelland1234The government is trying to do it's job and they are well aware that they are broke, you should quit complaining and whining and see how it pans out.

The government are the reason we're broke in the first place. Trying to line their pockets, as I have to keep reminding you. If they kept the banks in line instead of trying to get a piece of the pie themselfs we would be in this predicament.

If they did their job in the first place I'd have nothing to complain about.

The Police do a valuable service to the community

Of course they do a valuable service to the community. Until the community turns on government, then they follow orders to feed their families. As you say.

How would the police be endangering the rioters? They have no guns, at most they'll have tasers and batons, which is for their protection when rioters endanger THEM.

Could you support the Establishment anymore than you are doing right now?

It's the police, on orders from their bosses and government leaders, who incite violence. You don't see thousands of protestors turning up in riot gear ready for a ruckus. No, the trouble always arises when the police turn up looking for violence. Don't you find it odd that when protests are policed on a personal level with basic uniform cops, trouble is always minimal. Yet when the police are out in riot gear, without fail, there's violence.

Shall we do a death count? I'll list off innocent protestors who've been murdered by riot police. You name the riot police murdered by protestors.

Police love a ruckus. They're generally a bigoted bunch who enjoy nothing more than slapping students and 'hippies' about.

I remember the BBC and pro-Establishment types saying the Poll Tax protestors were violent thugs who attacked police. Then it turns out the BBC in line with the government were lying through their teeth. But hey, they wouldn't do that now, surely

If you like I can find even more links to articles that have 'the people' and 'students' committing violent crime, which would no doubt be alot worse if there were no Policing system.

That's odd, because I have evidence that suggests otherwise. What I have suggests whenever there's a heavy police presence and riot cops out, there's violence. Whenever there's a small number of standard uniform police, things go quite well.

Did you physically pay to go to school when you were under 18 and weren't paying tax? Thats free education to you.

It's not free education for my parents though, is it. Regardless of whether they 'physically' paid. Both have give more than enough in tax to cover my education. So it's not 'free'.

For the education to be free the tax system would need to cease existence. Then and only then would we have free education. What we have right now is paid education.

People are sponging off the government because they can't be arsed to get a job and cost a wad of cash each year, do you go round their house and shout 'get a job you fat bum?' no, because you'd be badly hurt as a result.

People are sponging off the government. And that's wrong. But the government seem to be on the right track in forcing Job Seekers receivers to do mandatory work.

I don't see the symmetry between someone who wants to go through higher education and have a good career, and someone who wants to sit on his arse drinking cider and doing whatever chavs do.

Rioting gives people the chance to do bad things because the chance of them getting caught is slim compared to if they were by themselves.

Well that's subjective mate. I'd say on the whole rioters have done an enormous amount of good, and without them we wouldn't have the freedoms we enjoy today.

I see nothing bad about defacing and vandalising the stomping ground of elite thieves and general scumbags. Nor do I see much wrong with assaulting totalitarian and violent police officers.

Your parents have to pay tax regardless if they had kids or not.

Obviously. What's your point?

I've already made it clear why we bailed out the banks and it's a sound move IMO, and as for the war, there's no doubt it's cost us alot of money, but also IMO, it was very worthwhile.

Of course it's a sound move, it's the only move. But who let the banks get themselfs into the situation they were in? The government were ultimately to blame. The entire situation could have been avoided, had we had Democratic uncorrupted government.

As for the war, what was worthwile about it? Tens of thousands of innocent people dead, possibly over a hundred thousand. Massive loss of money. Massive fall in global opinion. And for what? We're no safer. Infact since the war, terrorism in Britain has increased ten fold.

You still never answered the question.

I anwsered your question, by stating that I've already anwsered it. I don't agree with throwing fire extinguishers from buildings onto innocent people. The kid who threw that was a moron. So no, it isn't worth it. Furthermore it's a stupid question because it suggests I'm in line or in agreement with the actions of the thrower, which I'm not.

Originally posted by johnyelland1234

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by johnyelland1234

 

Ok I will answer your question. If a person decides that they are going to stand against the citizenry, then he ought to understand he is taking his life in his hands, but of course, if the kid had killed someone that day, then he would be ultimately responsible for his individual action on the day.
However, I stand by the point that PROTEST no matter how it is done is justified and further more badly needed, every day until the filth in parliment is either expunged , or torn apart in the street and replaced with something less vile.

The police weren't standing in the way of citizenry, they were there to control the riot and to make sure that damage caused was limited and controlled. They didn't get a memo from the government saying, get your sticks we want you to get rid of these students.

The police were there to uphold the law, students do not have the right to riot, rioting is illegal so therefore the police were there to uphold that law, which is their job.

Students are not above the law, i'm trying to get through to you that Rioting is illegal and wrong but I don't think you want to listen.

People do not have the right to riot and never will or should, it's a horrendous act thats more akin to primates than a society of a first world country.

Law isn't self justifying. It's illegal for someone to smoke marijuanna, it means nothing. If you want to argue the ethics of rioting, well, you'll lose that argument to.

Without violent revolution we'd still be in the 15th century, being ruled over physically by tyrants. Without violent protest there would be no first world countries or civilised society. What's funny is you probably support violent 'rebels', given they're fighting against a government or group you're opposed to.

War is horrendous and primative. You seem all for it. You're familiar with the term hypocrite? What's your adress, I'll mail you a mirror.