Hey China, why are you so worked up about an Independant Taiwan

Originally posted by zcheng
FredT, you are so funny to have so much confidence in US force. I know in your eyes, China do not even have AK-47 and RPGs.

No doubt you have many weapons, not all of them high tech. Yes I have supreme confidence in the military of the United States

We have the biggest best equiped Navy
We have an Army equiped with the M1A2 MBT the finest in the world
We have an High Tech AF that has dominated almost every conflict in the last century
We have a small amphibious strike force called the Marines
Our military is not drafted but filled by those who want to serve.
We will in the future have a missile shield to protect us....

Need I go on?


[edit on 10-7-2004 by FredT]

Is it me or is the Taiwan situation very much like Hawaii for the US. Hawaii has made it clear for years that it wants to be indepebdent and the federal government has said no and it would enforce it with military might. Further more, how would we feel if China sold advanced weapons to Hawaii and acted like it would protect it if it declared independence from the US-we would not stand for it, so why should China?

hey freT, not all taiwanese like u want war! i have many taiwan friends and none of them want war, especially the war between chinese people( no matter in the mainland or in taiwan), so plz don't say things like that and think it will represent most people's thinking. if u say u r not chinese i will not say anymore(u r qulified to say so only if u r the native race but not from mainland after civil war).
thank you

Originally posted by germ
zcheng,
You've said before that you receive both American news and Chinese news and you claim that propoganda is evident in the American news. Let me ask you then, why the Chinese government censors any type of foreign news? This is most evident in the censorship of the internet. And just so you know the extent of the censorship in China, a computer game made by a Swedish company was recently banned because of its supposedly "inaccurate" description of Chinese history.

germ, glad to hear you. I do not deny that China censors the Internet. One major content filtered is sex and adult related stuff. I am for such filtering. Other filtering are propaganda from evil cults and others. If you can read Chinese, you can go to sina.com.cn, china.com, Xinhua news etc. You can see that foreign news are reported objectively.

Imagine if you lived in China, all you knew about the world was what the government was telling you. Think of that and tell me if Chinese communism is better. I can totally see why Taiwan is fighting so hard for freedom from the oppressive and bullying of China. The US realises this and is willing, as someone else previously posted, to call China's bluff. China is holding a crap hand.

Actually Chinese people get more accurate news than American people, because most american people stick to there favorite TV channel like Fox, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBC. Most TV stations are controlled by Jewish interest and biased for their interest first. You seems to think that Taiwan is under harsh oppression from Mainland China. Taiwan has their own government, they dictates all aspect of their life. The only thing it can not do is to declare Independence. Taiwan is part of China.

Originally posted by KrazyIvan
you forgot russia to. its just a maybe though. i heard they have more than half of their ICBMs pointed at china.

Yes. But China also has much more intermediate missile to aim and Russia is much closer than US to China. The point I want to make is that: In a Nuke war between US and China, there will be no Winner!

germ, glad to hear you. I do not deny that China censors the Internet. One major content filtered is sex and adult related stuff. I am for such filtering. Other filtering are propaganda from evil cults and others. If you can read Chinese, you can go to sina.com.cn, china.com, Xinhua news etc. You can see that foreign news are reported objectively.


You fail to mention that the Chinese government filters out any internet news coming out of America. For a more accurate assesment of the censorship of the Communist government of the internet please read this site:

en.wikipedia.org...

a short quote from there will motivate you to read the whole thing:
"Although blocking foreign sites has received much attention in the West, this is actually only part of the Chinese effort to censor the Internet. Much more effective is the ability to censor content providers within China, as the government can physically seize the Web site and the operators.

Although the government does not have the physical resources to monitor all Internet chat rooms and forums, the threat of being shut down has caused internet content providers to have internal staff, who are colloquially known as "big mamas" who stop and remove forum comments which may be politically sensitive.

However, Internet content providers have adopted some counterstrategies. One is to go forth posting political sensitive stories and removing them only when the government complains. In the hours or days in which the story is available online, people read it, and by the time the story is taken down, the information is already in the public. One notable case in which this occurred was in response to a school explosion in 2001, when local officials tried to suppress the fact the explosion resulted from children illegally producing fireworks. By the time local officials forced the story to be removed from the Internet, news was disseminated widely."

Actually Chinese people get more accurate news than American people



This is highly improbable. Besides the fact that democracy is built on the ideal of Free Speech, something that will never exist while Communism governs China, American's can get their news from anyone they want. If they want to read a European newspaper, they can. If they want to read the Asian news online such as you suggested, they can do that also. IN CHINA HOWEVER, you aren't allowed the viewing of Western news.

How is it then, that you can claim China's news as being more accurate? At least we in the West are able to read different sources, Chinese or American, and decide for ourselves.


[edit on 11-7-2004 by germ]

zcheng,
another informative statistic is here:

wais.stanford.edu...

AND OF THE CENSOR: CHINA

A study by Harvard Law School researchers finds that China is the country with the world's most oppressive censorship of what its citizens can view on the Internet. Chinese authorities block access to 19,000 sites, and also delete individual links or Web pages of which they do not approve. Most of the disapproved sites are political in nature. When it comes to blocking pornography, China (at least for now) cedes the first-place prize to Saudi Arabia: China blocks fewer than 15% of sexually explicit Web sites compared to Saudi Arabia's blocking of 86%.
(New York Times, 4 Dec 2002)
partners.nytimes.com...

Let me know if this surprises you and does not explain to you how China is "oppressive".

Originally posted by mrmonsoon
Is it me or is the Taiwan situation very much like Hawaii for the US. Hawaii has made it clear for years that it wants to be indepebdent and the federal government has said no and it would enforce it with military might. Further more, how would we feel if China sold advanced weapons to Hawaii and acted like it would protect it if it declared independence from the US-we would not stand for it, so why should China?

Hmm apples and oranges. First the Hawaii nationalist movement does not represent the bulk of the Hawaiian population. We discussed this earlier in this thread (Ithink or at least another one like it) that if a state wanted to leave the union there is little the Federal government could do to stop it. I mean there might be const. challanges and it would be a matter for the courts to decide as the const. is silent on states leaving.

Originally posted by taobo33
hey freT, not all taiwanese like u want war

I have neevr advocated war. My position has been clear. Zcheng is the one doing all the talk of taking Taiwan by force. My position is that if China attacks Taiwan, we would come to her defence. A war is not in the interests of anyone. However ZCHANG seems ready to die to take it back.....

Originally posted by zcheng
germ, glad to hear you. I do not deny that China censors the Internet. One major content filtered is sex and adult related stuff. I am for such filtering. Other filtering are propaganda from evil cults and others.

Obviously the censors are not getting the propaganda that your government is spewing out.

Actually Chinese people get more accurate news than American people, because most american people stick to there favorite TV channel like Fox, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBC.

Yes I can see from your governments standpoit you get to see the news that they want you to see. But a free press? You are truly deluded.

Originally posted by zcheng

germ, glad to hear you. I do not deny that China censors the Internet. One major content filtered is sex and adult related stuff. I am for such filtering. Other filtering are propaganda from evil cults and others. If you can read Chinese, you can go to sina.com.cn, china.com, Xinhua news etc. You can see that foreign news are reported objectively.

Actually Chinese people get more accurate news than American people, because most american people stick to there favorite TV channel like Fox, MSNBC, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBC. Most TV stations are controlled by Jewish interest and biased for their interest first. The only thing it can not do is to declare Independence. Taiwan is part of China.

Humm... First off, the Chinese government may want to give Taiwan a name and call it "its official name", but it does not make it so just because the communist state wants to. Taiwan was never really part of China....never

The original people of Taiwan are of Malay-Polynesian descent, and there are still many of them living in the mountains and forests.

There is also the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895 When the Chinese Imperial government gave sovereingty of Taiwan to the Japanese forever. The Taiwanese did not like being incorporated to the Japanese empire, so with the help of China they declared its independanceon May 25th 1895. This was the first independant republic in Asia, with the help of the Manchu officials.

This is the flag of the Taiwan Republic in 1895.


Althou the republic of Taiwan was crushed by the Japanese shortly after, and Taiwan remained part of the Japanese empire, there were always some revolts agains the Japanese government.

The below was a demonstration in 1995 to the Shimonoseki Treaty, and a way for the Taiwanese to say Goodbye to China

100 years Shimonoseki anniversary in Taipei: "Goodbye to China."

The information above and much more can be found in the following link, which is a Taiwanese link.
www.taiwandc.org...

Oh, and about the Chinese people getting more accurate news than the American people.....please....tell me....who and why first brought to light the SARS problem in China?........ and what happens in China if someone makes a site that openly criticizes the communist regime? what happened to the same person that brought up the Chinese government coverup of SARS? What has happened to him and others like him for criticizing the communist state for the Tiananmen Square and asking for compensation to the families of the 1,000+ Chinese that were killed? What happens if any Chinese criticize your government on demonstrations in the streets? what happens to those people?


[edit on 11-7-2004 by Muaddib]

Exxcellent post. I know some of the history of Taiwan, but your post and links filled in alot of gaps. Thanks......

Originally posted by omega007
FredT
Ok........Say Alaska votes to become independent from the USA.....not going to be allowed. What is the difference.....?

If you have read throught the various post on the subject. If the state as a whole decided to leave the union, there is nothing in the constitution that prevents it. No doubt it would be tied up in the courts for a while, but really thats about it. The constitution is clear on adding but not leaving. Hawaii has a nationalist movement but its a minority at present. If the state of Hawaii voted to secseed what exactly could we do about it? Zcheng's solution seems to be to burn it down to bedrock.

But as several posters have pointed out in this and other threads, China's claim to Taiwan is shaky at best.

Funny you chose not to respond to the post on the history of Taiwan as explained above? SO does that indicate the truth of the matter or is it that the propaganda manual you are reading from does not cover that?????

Originally posted by FredT
Hmm apples and oranges. First the Hawaii nationalist movement does not represent the bulk of the Hawaiian population. We discussed this earlier in this thread (Ithink or at least another one like it) that if a state wanted to leave the union there is little the Federal government could do to stop it. I mean there might be const. challanges and it would be a matter for the courts to decide as the const. is silent on states leaving.

The real question is why US does not allow such movement or sentiment. Can any Hawaii register an organization with declared goal of Hawaii independence?

Originally posted by FredT
I have neevr advocated war. My position has been clear. Zcheng is the one doing all the talk of taking Taiwan by force. My position is that if China attacks Taiwan, we would come to her defence. A war is not in the interests of anyone. However ZCHANG seems ready to die to take it back.....

yes. My position is that Taiwan should not seek independence, otherwise war is inevitable. The other position is that War especially Nuke war between US and China, there will be no winner. Both US and China will be ruined to rubble.

Originally posted by FredT
Yes I can see from your governments standpoit you get to see the news that they want you to see. But a free press? You are truly deluded.

Name any public new network or web site that I can not see. I get my news from around the world.

Do you have the gut to read the article in iraqwar.mirror-world.ru..., and tell me what you think?

Originally posted by Muaddib
who and why first brought to light the SARS problem in China?

Glad you bring SARS up. SARS was the biological attack launched against China by US in preparation for Iraq war and disrupt Chinese economy. It is similar to the bombing of Embassy, and will be remembered by all Chinese.

Originally posted by Muaddib
There is also the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895 When the Chinese Imperial government gave sovereingty of Taiwan to the Japanese forever. The Taiwanese did not like being incorporated to the Japanese empire, so with the help of China they declared its independanceon May 25th 1895. This was the first independant republic in Asia, with the help of the Manchu officials.

Just Tell me what nation is Taiwan belongs to before 1895. Hong Kong was also under British rule before. It was the lack of strength of China, that was dismembered by West powers and Japan. Now China has every right to unite with Taiwan?

[Quote]
The below was a demonstration in 1995 to the Shimonoseki Treaty, and a way for the Taiwanese to say Goodbye to China
The information above and much more can be found in the following link, which is a Taiwanese link.
www.taiwandc.org...


I do not deny there are many even want to join Japan, or think to be 51st state of US will be great. A small gathering can not hijack the will of all Chinese people.

what happened to the same person that brought up the Chinese government coverup of SARS? What has happened to him and others like him for criticizing the communist state for the Tiananmen Square and asking for compensation to the families of the 1,000+ Chinese that were killed?

I do not see much difference between China and US, allow the means maybe different. In US, the mass media are controlled by Jewish interest, and they dictate what they want you to hear and know. The result is that most American do not know the real state of the world. Iraq is a prime example. Do you know how many wounded? How many lost a limb or two?

Do you ever hear there is an experienced and prudent man fighting for US?
larouchein2004.net... Yes, he has the right to set up the website and compaign, but he is denies the access to the American public.

[edit on 11-7-2004 by zcheng]

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by Muaddib
who and why first brought to light the SARS problem in China?

Glad you bring SARS up. SARS was the biological attack launched against China by US in preparation for Iraq war and disrupt Chinese economy. It is similar to the bombing of Embassy, and will be remembered by all Chinese.

Chinese economy is doing alot better now after SARS.