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Jared Loughner - Lets try to understand-its NOT a Conspiracy

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posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by kinda kurious
 


Jared Loughener is not like a serial killer or someone who kills for sport. For example; Ted Bundy did because he enjoyed it and got a thrill out of it. Jared had a message and that is the point. Some people kill just to kill; this is not the case with Jared Loughner at all.
edit on 11-1-2011 by dreamseeker because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by asperetty
 

asperetty,

I read your original posts and the follow-ups, and quite frankly, I was absolutely fascinated by your analysis. I do believe you have found the method to the madness, or are at least a good 80% there. Honestly, thanks for that.

Since you do seem rather intelligent, I would present you with a different question (just saying Jared committed a horrible, heinous, inexcusable act is like beating a horse that has already fossilized): So, what exactly is so wrong with the way we live? What is wrong with the society that we are a part of? What is the root of the perception of a brutal oppressive force that runs our lives?

At the end of the day, most of us live in warm homes with plenty of food and entertainment and raise healthy children that have opportunities to shape their lives in ways that provide them with even bigger homes, better food, and more entertainment…

Is there a better way? Most likely… Is there a more enlightened way of life? Probably… Are there horrible secrets that those in power keep from the general population? Almost definitely! Is there a massive force controlling our lives that will not let us behave any way we please? Yes – it’s called “society” and it has been around for thousands of years.

I believe, some people will always live with a blindfold on. It’s not by choice. They simply don’t have the capacity to understand certain things. I believe others, people like you, for example, will always choose to seek the truth, and look beyond the “tv screen”.

I have done my fair share of “creative” mind exploration in my days, and I am rather familiar with the feeling of the veil being peeled off from over my mind. I know the intoxicating empowerment of feeling that you can see beyond the fabric of society and you are free beyond its laws… In the end, I believe that it is totally true. That feeling is as true as it gets. And I bet you Jared really liked that feeling. But just having that feeling, and seeing past the veil is not enough. One CAN conquer this society, but it usually takes something very special.

You have to be very smart, or very talented, or very athletic, or very socially adept, or very lucky, or likely a combination of those qualities or a myriad of other ways of accumulating respect, wealth, and/or power. Then you can choose to use your accumulated assets to shape more than just your world – for good or for evil. You can save children, build schools and hospitals, invest in green energy - whatever floats your boat... You can also choose to spend it on your own gluttony, and your own perversions - again - your choice... It's your call as a human being... And yes. You can put yourself in a position to distribute your own “currency”, as Jared would put it.

So, at the end, my question is this: What is it about our lives, as they are, that is appalling enough to go to measures so drastic as to write messages on corpses of innocent people? Please understand, I am not saying that you condone Jared’s actions. I honestly do not believe that you do in any way. I just want to understand better why you feel that his message is so valid…



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by asperetty
 


I have had other things on my mind so I never read or watched as this even unfolded, even with all the humdrum going on, even on ATS. But now reading your thread and the first page of one of his threads, I'ts plain to see that, he was fighting his own personal demons, and sorry to say he lost that fight. And yes you could dig out what exactly he was insinuating to and what was up with him. But at the end it's just another lost soul, at the wrong place in the wrong time, with who know what pressures and things that brought him to his conclusion, and his actions. Since I have not read much but the first page of one of his threads were he is questioning the fact that space shuttles exist, I wont say much, but yes the dude needed help, whatever that help could of been, it's everybody's guess now. It's amazing what can go on right under your nose, and have no clue about.



There is no point in stalling progress over digression. This event has opened doors. The girl is dead. Its a real shame. Now we're about to through the cycle once again... Why did she die? Because some insane person killed her? Why did he kill her?.... Without understanding why she died, you are wasting her sacrifice.


I do not like this word "sacrifice" especially in that context, and I am not going to read all his posts to find out how you describe it as such have other things to do, but I really don't like that word. Could you elaborate on it and its context.



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 02:45 AM
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To Bazarnik and whoever else that reads:

This was not meant to be such a long response, but that is what it became. I am not looking to be criticized or called a hypocrite. I know what I am. Just take into consideration what I have written in response to Bazarnik's questions. Please follow up Baz.

In response to your first question, I feel that what is wrong with the way we live is that we do not question the ethics and principles on which our society functions, nor do we ever consider the consequences of living in such a society that is doubtful of their own ethics. Moreover, we do not know exactly the ethics that a "good" society or person should prescribe themselves for that certain collection to consider itself, as well as be considered by others, a progressive society in the name of humanity, nature, science, and spirit as whole that does not entertain notions of sacrificing the integrity of either one of these parts of life for the sake of the progression of another. Ethics is something we expect others to consider, those specific others being the ones who lead society, or from the leaders point of view, what they expect everyone should follow, but know that everyone does not follow. We expect them to set an example, and to follow some sort of code of ethical conduct since they are supposed to be the figurehead and absolute representation of the society they lead, which I find absolutely absurd when one cannot expect even themselves to follow such a code. Why? Because they don't even know what the code is! What is the nature of a good society? How does a good society function? What is an ethical society? I believe an ethical society is what I mentioned above, a peoples or person that works and thinks and creates in order to promote the positive development of humanity, nature, science, and spirit combined, without ever sacrificing one for the other. Seeing it in this perspective, we can conclude that we are not an ethical society. We do not promote these four conditions of life. No matter what we do, especially in a modern world where all four of these are interconnected worldwide, we are always sacrificing one for the other. Why aren't we a good society that promotes these four conditions of life? These sorts of questions are never addressed in the home or at school, or in television and rarely with friends, and certainly never by our leaders, so how do you expect to ever find the answer? Or once you do, how do you expect to promote it? People feel they are living in a content world now, why would they want to hamper their happiness with ethics which seem only to prohibit the technological advancement of the human race? It seems if we ever applied ethics to everything we do, we would never have ventured into the world of atomic weapons, we would never have researched subatomic particles, we would never have understood the nature of electrons, and essentially, we never would have all the technology that we do today which makes our world absolutely fantastic. These are not questions that society wants to answer, or they do want answers for, but once they discover that solution, they are hesitant and unwilling to act upon it and to infuse it into their lifestyles because it would constitute reshaping their entire unethical way of life- of introducing ethics to our every thought and action, which would probably result in having to kill yourself, because it is near impossible to live purely ethical life in an unethical world.

But some individuals in such a society may introduce ethics into their daily routine. For example they may turn off all their lights and electrical components in their home during the night or at times when it is vacant to reduce dependence on energy, because God knows we need to reduce our dependence and protect the environment from our actions. But do they realize that all of those electrical components in their electronic products require a certain mineral called coltan, whose production is quite controversial, as it creates corruption and war in the nation from where it originates? Ask the people who condemn Diamond companies for purchasing and selling blood diamonds if they condemn their phone makers as well for buying and selling products that are assembled at the price of lives. Show them the evidence that it is true (I’ll refer you to a little documentary called “Blood Coltan”), and gauge their response. Considering that coltan is used in nearly if not all electronic products, and knowing that our lives revolve around electronic technology that require this ‘blood coltan’, do you think they will boycott the use and purchase of TV’s, phones, radios, gaming systems, GPS systems, cars, computers, security systems…all electronics? How would they survive the modern world without all these things? There is a limit to the amount of ethical conduct they will inculcate into their lifestyles. This is another point where a breakdown in society emerges, the extent to which they practice their ethics if they have any. Ethical behavior that is partial is exclusive behavior, and exclusive behavior benefits only those who practice these exclusive ethics, resulting in one of the four conditions that promote life-humanity, nature, science, and spirit- to be sacrificed so that the other may progress. In this case, science may progress, as coltan allows for the electronic components of the technology we use to conduct advanced scientific research to function as designed and execute experiments as calculated that we would have not been able to perform without such technologies and coltan. But at the advancement of scientific research, we are jeopardizing humanity (with war) and nature (mining,destruction of the environment), and when we allow this to occur, we could even go so far as to say we are being injurious to our own spirit (conscious of our negative effects to the earth), or at least to the veracity of it. So it’s a lack of ethics and responsibility that is wrong with the way our society lives, in my opinion.

I think that answered the following two questions as well. We perceive oppression because oppression exists. That is the root cause of our perception of oppression-the very fact that oppression is a noun that can be used to describe the results of an entity’s actions- that their actions are oppressive. That is the root of our perception of that brutal force that runs our lives. The root of this oppression caused by the brutal force is a lack of ethics and sense of responsibility for their actions. But oppression is also a natural force; it is a part of life that can only be fought with equally brutal amounts of oppressive force (think of the yin and yang; for good to exist there must be bad. Or must there be?). But the weapon used to fight oppression is not guns or bombs or even diplomacy and international laws, it is simply the individual that makes up each society understanding what is ethical behavior and maintaining the unrelenting practice of it. Once you begin to act with an ethical behavior and uphold those principles in every act and thought, you are cutting oppression and oppressive behavior at the root, because I believe it is impossible to be oppressive if you are applying the right ethics to your actions. Oppression will simply cease to grow and expand; it will shrivel and self-destruct and eventually die.

On to your other question…Let me ask you this: How big does our child’s home need to be before they can be satisfied? How much entertainment do they need in order to feel content? In what way are we providing food that is better than the food from yesterday? Ethics=responsibility. Responsibility=awareness. Awareness=solution. You cannot be ethical unless you are being responsible, and you cannot be responsible without being aware of what you are responsible for. And it is until you became aware of your responsibilities that you will never know the solution to society’s problems. No human requires a 3000 square foot home unless the woman cannot stop herself from being impregnated. It is nice to have. But is it necessary? Why do we feel we need to obtain such large homes? Is it because we like to confine ourselves within larger spaces? Larger prison cells seem less oppressive? Is it because we want to prove our worth? Is it simply because we want to provide more for our family? What more do they need other than shelter, food, clothes, and an education? Tell me which one of those four do you think they need most? Do they need larger shelters? Do they need more food? Do they need more clothes? Go outside and drive down any main road in any city and you will find that every advertisement is telling you need more of these three things, but none will ever tell you that you need more education. Because the more you are educated, the more you realize you do not need a larger home, you do not need more food, and you do not need more clothes. You need not more than what can sustain you. Your intelligence is all the shelter, all the food, all the clothes, and all the entertainment you will require in your life, because with enough intelligence you can gain unlimited amounts of all other things and you will always be able satisfy your needs as well as your wants, if you so choose. Why is it that we cannot entertain ourselves? Why do we always have to go out and spend our time and money to be entertained? Talking provides enough entertainment. Creativity is pretty entertaining. Children are pretty entertaining. Have you ever tried teaching a child to read or do mathematics? Its pretty entertaining. Frustrating sometimes, but it entertains the mind, it excites the mind. But there is no money is entertaining yourself. That is why you don’t see billboards telling you that you can learn hypnosis yourself. They always want to get you to watch someone else perform hypnosis on others, for a price.

That is all we look for when we are out purchasing that which entertains us, isn’t it? To stimulate and excite our minds? It’s the lack of effort that is our problem when it comes to being entertained and satisfied. It is not necessarily this society that is our problem. It is not their oppressive values and lack of ethics. It is each individuals’ lack of effort to change their society. Any person with a high school education understands that our society is #. We are sick, consumerist, selfish, wasteful, irresponsible, lazy, and apathetic. Yet, even knowing this, we do nothing about it, therein synthesizing ourselves with this society. We accept that this is our society and we ourselves allow this society to absorb us into its mold simply because we feel the effort to change it is too great. I’ll tell you now, society cannot be changed unless the individuals that make up the society can change themselves. Every structure in existence, from mountains to buildings, from chemical elements to societies, all have one thing in common. They each have a foundation. They have something which is at the core of their existence, which determines their existence- that without this fundamental thing, these principalistic things, they would not be. Without this foundation, that structure cannot exist. A mountain requires stone or dirt. A building literally requires a cement foundation, otherwise it will be unstable on soft soil. Chemicals require elements which require atoms which require subatomic particles which require something else which requires something else in order for that chemical and element to even exist. And societies require humans. Without humans, there are no societies. And what is it that humans require? What is the foundation of humanities existence? What makes a human, human? Ethics. Without ethics, humans are animals. Society is corrupt because there are no ethical humans that make up society. There are only trained animals. In some cases, even wild animals make up a society. How can you ever expect an animal to do anything other than what its instincts tells it to? What exactly are animal instincts again? Well in summary, everything an animal does revolves solely around itself. Why? Because animals do not have single notion about ethical behavior. They cannot question the principles of life like we humans can. They are bound to their natural processes, UNLESS they are trained to act like an ethical animal would. This training is enforced with laws. And if the laws are broken, there is punishment. Coercion is unethical. Coercion is not an ethical way to deal with unethical people, or animals.

So I don’t believe in such a force as society. I believe in the individual, as without the individual to comprise the society, or even with the individual and more, that society is just a figment of your imagination, some false construct to compensate for your misunderstanding of the human condition in this world. Society is not an animate or inanimate object. It is just a term, a word to describe a collection of individuals with certain behaviors and ideas. In other words, society is an idea that collects individuals into a group and deduces their function and utility as singular whole; society is a stereotype. A society is literally an abstract term used to dehumanize the consequences of a persons actions and distract an individual’s personal responsibility to himself and his neighbor. It muddies ethics and responsibility and clarifies all excuses for not having any. Don’t use society as an excuse for not maintaining an ethical lifestyle.

I think when it comes to Jared, this feeling of absolute freedom was less a blessing as it was a curse. He knew that his right to freedom and utilization of his natural freedom would not fare well in a world of bondage. Obviously, he must have felt forced into doing what he did, otherwise he would have chosen another way to express himself. I’m not saying someone made him murder. What I’m saying is that he could not come up with any better solution. But as vile as his choice was, he was brilliant enough to see it through to the end. He did not just murder, and he put a lot of effort into making sure the world did not see him as only that. Sadly, he used unethical behavior to promote his thoughts. And like I said, society expects ethical conduct on the part of each other person of the society without ever knowing what it means to be ethical. This was something Jared tried to explain in his videos when he correctly told us all that we would all see him as a terrorist, that our “grammar is controlled”, and when he almost apologized for his actions when he stated that “if only I had my rights, this never would have occurred”. Society’s composition of ethical behavior is so warped, that they would not see the actual ethics they require and which he was trying to imply was lost to society by his unethical behavior, if that makes any sense. Our model of ethical behavior is formed by our modes of education. But the model our education tries to impress upon us is this : You, as the individual, should not do bad things, and neither should your neighbor, or else. Then it goes on to list what those bad things are for our own benefit of not having to discover what was good or bad ourselves, and then it goes on further to describe exceptions in history, where sometimes these bad things are acceptable under certain situations and conditions and under specific pretexts such as war for the propagation of democracy and human rights. I’m sorry, war is wrong under all circumstances and it is hypocritical to say otherwise. Encroaching upon any other person’s property without their permission and with hostile intent? Ask yourself why you would do so. Tell me what right you have to enforce your way of living upon another? Your right as a free individual? Fine. Now, let me ask you, are you being ethical about your approach in how exercise your right? That will bring you to the question of what is ethical and what isn’t.

Remember this: ethics are principles, not guidelines.

Definition of Principle:

prin•ci•ple (Noun)

1. A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.

The journey through life is like walking on an elevated platform. The principles are the columns that hold up the pathway- without them you’re not going anywhere, or without enough you will fall short of where you want to be. The pathway itself are the guidelines, the rules, the path you determine based on the principles from which you construct the foundation of your life. If a few columns are missing, you may find it difficult to walk unimpeded and you will have to take risks jumping over gaps in the path just to continue on it. In other words, you will have to make exceptions, you will sacrifice some of those principles and you may break a few rules as a result of either not knowing such principles existed and thus not having the right set of rules to guide you, because you had not the initial principles to determine which rules you would follow in life or because you did not make the effort to determine your principles to begin with. Because everyone else was able to jump over the gap in ethics and still go on walking, you can to, and you did. In other words, you will be living a lie whether you knew it or not. That does not seem ideal. Unless you make the effort to determine the principles, the ethics that are foundational to how your life is lived, every action you make will be harmful to you or another at one side of the spectrum or the other. You will serve humanity and science while degrading nature and spirit. You will promote Nature and spirit and humanity, but not science. You will campaign for science at the expense of nature, and so on, simply because you did not try to promote all things at once. You placed in a hole in your ethics when you decided that science is more important now than nature is, and that any problem we may create in nature can be solved with science. This, in my opinion, is the wrong kind of thinking.

But you must see, its not about what is right and wrong, its about what is and isn’t. Only from judging what is and what isn’t can you then determine what is right and wrong so that you may preserve the honor of what is and what isn’t. For example, the Sun is not the Moon. To say otherwise is doing injustice to two opposing celestial beings. TO perform any action based on this farce, you are placing the integrity of yourself as well as the Sun and Moon in jeopardy. Therefore know the Sun is the Sun and the Moon is the Moon and act accordingly to these principles. Once you have discerned such principles, you can then create rules that guide how you interpret and act when do anything that involves the Sun and Moon. You would not send an astronaut with the technology that we have now to the surface of the Sun, would you? If you did, you obviously had not understood some principles about temperature and our celestial neighbors and how in this situation they were relative to each other.

Is it okay for you to kill your neighbor? No, it isn’t. But what if he killed your wife? Is it okay then retaliate with equal fervor? No. Why not? Because it was not okay for him to kill your wife in the first place, and the murderer not understanding this fact is where the real crime is. Once both of you understand that killing another human is not ok, then you can begin to understand what is right or wrong and act accordingly to ensure that no one is killed in the future. Killing is not necessarily wrong. The man who killed the other man for killing his wife I don’t believe was wrong. He administered justice equal to the crime. But why did the crime occur? Because of the lack of principles-of ethics. If both men understood that life is to be respected and facilitated always under every regard and never threatened, there would be no killing. To argue otherwise is destructive to your integrity, your spirit, your humanity, and the lives of others, which is, according to what I stated in the first paragraph, unethical, because you are sacrificing your humanity and your spirit, when you should be promoting both as well as nature and science, if possible in this circumstance.

An ethical person does not compromise the integrity of nature, humanity, science, or spirit. Jared, though he had understood what he believed to be right and wrong, lacked the ethical principles to act accordingly. He was just another child of society with misguided ethics. Unless you have a polymerization of perfect ethics and rules, you will never perform truly positive actions. In one part or another of your action, you will do something wrong, something unethical, whether you are aware or not. Jared is an example of this. He understood our government was unethical and made laws to make itself, the government, appear to be ethical to those who did not question the ethics of government and only the laws, the rules. Jared then acted as with the same ethics in mind as the government. Though the laws may have been good, they were enacted to ensure or prevent this or that “wrong” thing from happening, they would have never been necessary should the government had maintained and practiced and promoted ethical behavior in the first place. But because it did not, it had to create laws to hide its unethical behavior and make exceptions for them, and prevent others from acting out in the same way, lest others should see the fallibility of our government as an authority. That is really all it takes to understand the ethics of government and yourself, you have to question it, or question why it does not exist. Only then will you realize how unethical, even hypocritical every law in the USA is. This nation was built under the basic principle that every human is a free individual and had the right to conduct themselves accordingly to this fact. Yet, since the inception of government, all it has done, with every piece of legislation it has made into law, is restrict those freedoms. When you define freedom as the freedom to speak openly and without impediment, you are restricting the freedom of speech to what you have defined it is. Freedom is freedom, nothing else. Now if you want to make sure those freedoms are not taken out hand, not manipulated to serve a single persons delusional purpose, you must insist upon exercising such rights in an ethical manner. Four simple principles of life from which you can then create guidelines in order to maintain such an ethical existence:

1. Do unto others what you would others be done to you;
2. Do as you have agreed to do
3. What comes around, goes around
4. If you have nothing good to say, do not say anything!

Sorry I went on a tangent, but I think this clarifies why I believe Jared’s message is so important and valid and necessary to understand. He himself in his words and actions is bringing the topic of ethics into light. He is showing that not only does society lack ethics, as proven by his own actions and his prediction of our own reactions, but that this deficiency is a consequence of the lack of ethics in government, because it is government, or any other leading authority that “controls our grammar”, our ability to question the ethics of everything. Any lack of ethics results in many rules to compensate for the lack of ethics, to prevent ethical behavior from being infringed upon. It is to force ethical behavior on a peoples who do not know what is considered ethical behavior to begin with. Catch the drift? This itself is an unethical response to reforming and promoting ethics in society, because it does not create principles to follow in a society, it only gives them rules to follow, and rules are just excuses for not having any ethics. Society does not question the ethics, it questions the rules, and as I stated in the first paragraph, our problems are due to society’s inability to question the ethics and principles that truly govern our way of life.



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 03:18 AM
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Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by asperetty
 


I have had other things on my mind so I never read or watched as this even unfolded, even with all the humdrum going on, even on ATS. But now reading your thread and the first page of one of his threads, I'ts plain to see that, he was fighting his own personal demons, and sorry to say he lost that fight. And yes you could dig out what exactly he was insinuating to and what was up with him. But at the end it's just another lost soul, at the wrong place in the wrong time, with who know what pressures and things that brought him to his conclusion, and his actions. Since I have not read much but the first page of one of his threads were he is questioning the fact that space shuttles exist, I wont say much, but yes the dude needed help, whatever that help could of been, it's everybody's guess now. It's amazing what can go on right under your nose, and have no clue about.



There is no point in stalling progress over digression. This event has opened doors. The girl is dead. Its a real shame. Now we're about to through the cycle once again... Why did she die? Because some insane person killed her? Why did he kill her?.... Without understanding why she died, you are wasting her sacrifice.


I do not like this word "sacrifice" especially in that context, and I am not going to read all his posts to find out how you describe it as such have other things to do, but I really don't like that word. Could you elaborate on it and its context.



You see, the point of creating this thread was to insist that this entire event and the conclusion to his actions does not simply end with "Jared was a lost soul" as you have said, and that is what I have been trying to express throughout my responses. There is much more to this event than that. I did not get the word "sacrifice" from Jared. I personally stated her death as a sacrifice for our sake, if only we can see what exactly her "sacrifice" was for.

I think next time you should not stop at a word and then ask for an explanation when the explanation has been given several times in many other posts. I dont mean to be harsh, but I think the very fact you feel nauseated by the word and have chosen not to discover what I meant by saying it only proves Jared was right in his message.

What I meant by sacrifice depends on how you look at her death. Do you think it had a reason, or was it simply just cold blooded murder and heart wrenching catastrophe? According to what I believe was Jared's reasoning, I do not see her death as simply a death, and I don't think he intended for her death to be simply part of a serial killing or fun murder spree, as he had a purpose for killing the people in the crowd (not specifically her) beyond satisfaction or hate or whatever. I see that her death had a reason. When someone dies for a reason, that to me means it was a sacrifice, even if they knew it or not, as a sacrifice is only in the eye of the beholder of the death.

Her death was not ritualistic, it wasn't necessary...whatever you may feel about what I am trying to say that may make you feel I mean it in some sick way, I promise you that is not what I mean. I mean that her death had a purpose beyond even what Jared may have implied, because it is me alone that I am speaking of now that sees her death as a sacrifice, that without her death and the others who died as well as the injured, a certain message would have never gotten out to the public. That message is what I have gone at length to describe and defend. And it is not to defend Jared's actions. I did not make this thread to glorify Jared. I made this thread so that I may find out for what reason was this girl killed. Otherwise if she died without any reason, that means her death was a waste. Even if there was no initial purpose, which I argue there was, I would prefer to give her death a purpose, so that I may feel that her death was not just a wasteful death. That is what I mean by her sacrifice. She died for something, not nothing, whether it was the intention or not, that something now exists in mind. With her murder, a message was sent. Because of tragedy, something new came about. When a soldier is killed, we do not say it was a good thing. We did not send him to war to be killed, but to defend our nation, liberty, and rights. But when the soldier is killed, we honor is sacrifice, even if he had not been fighting at the time, even though he had not consciously placed his life on the line. The soldiers death is not always necessary, but there is always a reason for their death that goes beyond the fact that a bullet had torn through their heart. The reason they died was because we were trying to send a message by his presence, that we stand for the nation, liberty, and the natural rights of all people. This is what Im trying to say by "Christina's sacrifice". She may not have wanted to die for any cause, but she ended up doing so anyways.

If you believe that "God has a plan for us all", and that "everything has a reason", well that's basically what I'm implying and is what I am trying to get everyone else to understand, and not just stop at hatred or sadness. When I said this event opens doors, is because I believe everything is more than it seems, you have be able to see beyond that television screen, in other words, what it appears to be. The door closed on Christina, while a new door has opened to all of America. If we are to give meaning to her death, I feel we need to begin to understand what created the events that surround her death. This leads us to Jared and the information that shaped his decision to murder. That information is something he wanted us all to discover for ourselves and which he tried to put forth, but that I feel because of his corrupt mental state had a hard time doing. Thats why his vids appear completely neurotic and incoherent. But that does not mean he did not have something important to say. That being the case, that he was pretty much incoherent, he knew he would not be able to get the attention he needed in order to get the message he wanted to spread to the whole public. So he chose a massacre as his publicity stunt, while he prepared his message as clearly as HE could make it. It then became the job of people such as me to try and understand what he wanted to say. In his videos he gave us guidelines that helped me to determine that message, and that is now what I'm trying to explain to everyone who does not our will not try to understand. I proabbly need to edit the grammar in the OP so that it is a little clearer.

Originally when I started this thread I was not trying to honor the messenger or the message or the package in which it was contained. I only wanted to know the reason why it was delivered. Now I know. Please try to just understand the message. You might as well. The act is over, now how will you choose to act? Simply damn it all and walk away in shame? There is an opportunity to learn more from this than simply Jareds mental state.



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by bazarnik
 


Well I know you weren't talking to me you were asking OP. However I will answer from my POV. I believe that in the USA we live in a country of permissions, freedoms no longer. You have to have permission to drive the car you just bought with cash yesterday via registration/tags, insurance, and a driver's license. Not only that but then it's further dictated that the states know better for you than you know for yourself and you must wear your seatbelt or helmet or face "punishment" i.e. fines. You must pay taxes to the government on land you already supposedly own? This makes no sense if you truly owned it then the government should have no say. And if you don't what happens? You are "punished" You must pay your income taxes even though the IRS is not technically a government agency they are a private organization sub'ed out by the government and there is no actual law on the books anywhere that says you are required to pay income tax or be "punished" Oh but they certainly do, they come in with guns drawn and confiscate property, make arrests, search and seizure of valuable goods in order to get the money they feel is due them. You can be tasered if you so much as give a cop attitude these days and guess what there are no long term studies done on a taser and what kind of side affects this kind of voltage will do to a person if used on them repeatedly like some police have done to some suspects. (Look up tasering on youtube almost all of it is negative)

In short in this country you will not be left alone to your own devices even if you try, if you go up on a mountain on some land you bought with no job and no money and let the land taxes pile up for years they will come and kick you off your land or fine you further or arrest you or all of the above. It's just friggin sad. Yes most of us live in warm comfortable homes with plenty of entertainment but what is beyond that, if you tried to step out of the status quo too much you would be squashed like a bug and labeled a domestic terrorist.



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by Albastion
 

Great idea, he sounds like an ego maniacal, egocentric, your wrong I'm right, loser. Hope he gets whats coming to him.



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by asperetty
 





You see, the point of creating this thread was to insist that this entire event and the conclusion to his actions does not simply end with "Jared was a lost soul" as you have said, and that is what I have been trying to express throughout my responses


I don't know about that "Lost Soul" says a lot to me, in fact it can say a whole books worth of info with those 2 words.



There is much more to this event than that. I did not get the word "sacrifice" from Jared. I personally stated her death as a sacrifice for our sake, if only we can see what exactly her "sacrifice" was for.

And there is were your would be wrong and my problem with that word "sacrifice" comes in, it does imply many things, even some more nefarious subject. And to be clear I don't need or want any sacrifices in the sake of understanding such an event.



I think next time you should not stop at a word and then ask for an explanation when the explanation has been given several times in many other posts. I dont mean to be harsh, but I think the very fact you feel nauseated by the word and have chosen not to discover what I meant by saying it only proves Jared was right in his message.

I would stop at this word till we get its intention and the way you and even some in the media used cleared. In fact I just plain don't like that word. And I really don't care for his message, it is of no consequence to me and not a big mystery, but the way he chose or was forced to deliver it, that well you can see the effects of that.



What I meant by sacrifice depends on how you look at her death. Do you think it had a reason, or was it simply just cold blooded murder and heart wrenching catastrophe?

I'm sure he thought he had a message and even a reason, but I am not here to argue that for it does not matter now but only in the event of learning from it. And yes I would call what he did just a cold blooded murder and heart wrenching catastrophe.



According to what I believe was Jared's reasoning, I do not see her death as simply a death, and I don't think he intended for her death to be simply part of a serial killing or fun murder spree, as he had a purpose for killing the people in the crowd (not specifically her) beyond satisfaction or hate or whatever.

Again another one who looks for reasonable reasons and the "why" in such events. Which is cool and all and needs to be looked at, but like I said I just have a problem with the word "sacrifice" and its content that you and others have used it in, even including those on the TV. And yes he had a reason and justification no doubt, no one who does such things does it, for nothing. And to know why you would have to break down his entire live from when he was born, till this event. which is really impossible to do, unless you walked in his shoes and were him, which I don't think you would want to do. But looking at it more deeply will give you a few clues, and a clearer picture in to why and what lead him to do as he did.



I see that her death had a reason. When someone dies for a reason, that to me means it was a sacrifice, even if they knew it or not, as a sacrifice is only in the eye of the beholder of the death.

You see this is were I have a problem. What sacrifice? and why would such a thing be required? You almost sound like your looking for the a "clouds open up and all things are explained and put right" type of thing. I see it as a chain of events that lead it to this specific point, and the whole "sacrifice" thing is just weird.



I promise you that is not what I mean. I mean that her death had a purpose beyond even what Jared may have implied, because it is me alone that I am speaking of now that sees her death as a sacrifice, that without her death and the others who died as well as the injured, a certain message would have never gotten out to the public. That message is what I have gone at length to describe and defend.

Again this word "sacrifice" you do know its meaning do you not? No such sacrifices are needed in the understanding of why this happened and how it happened, you could figure it out without using that word at all. And yes it does sound like a ritualistic type of thing. Like a "Passing through the fires of Moloch" type of thing when you and other people including the media put it like that, and in that context. And I freaking don't like Moloch even more then I don't like that word. The message I got is exactly like I said in my other post he was a lost soul, in which specific events in his life lead him to his predicament, and people being shot.



and it is not to defend Jared's actions. I did not make this thread to glorify Jared. I made this thread so that I may find out for what reason was this girl killed. Otherwise if she died without any reason, that means her death was a waste.

Yes exactly..bingo...Her death was a waste, I see no reason for sacrifice to come into that picture. So if you want to know why and all that, thats fine but why use the word "sacrifice" you do know that even though are meaning less to me...They do contain a certain power, especially pertaining to certain things. And are part of the way our reality is made, and made up off.



Even if there was no initial purpose, which I argue there was, I would prefer to give her death a purpose, so that I may feel that her death was not just a wasteful death. That is what I mean by her sacrifice.

OK..OK...I't was semantics then, much ado about nothing eh....Were arguing semantics here, just wanted to clear that up....That is if, are you by change a follower of moloch..............
just kidding dude.
Semantics it is then.



Because of tragedy, something new came about. When a soldier is killed, we do not say it was a good thing. We did not send him to war to be killed, but to defend our nation, liberty, and rights. But when the soldier is killed, we honor is sacrifice, even if he had not been fighting at the time, even though he had not consciously placed his life on the line

Soldiers dieing and this event is a whole different world, all together. Soldiers at least have some clue as to why there there and the gravity of there situation, and most should know why there there and what for, and if they do not then they should come up with something... This situation is however completely different then a soldiers situation, and ultimately they chose withing there varying degrees of there life's to be there...The people in this even however did not, some were simply at the wrong time, and in the wrong place. I would say it's semantics again.



The soldiers death is not always necessary, but there is always a reason for their death that goes beyond the fact that a bullet had torn through their heart. The reason they died was because we were trying to send a message by his presence, that we stand for the nation, liberty, and the natural rights of all people.

Again semantics, and that could be the topic of another thread that would fill pages upon pages, and I'm pretty sure even though I haven't checked that there is some topic, going on were some are arguing that right now, so not gonna bother with it.



This is what Im trying to say by "Christina's sacrifice". She may not have wanted to die for any cause, but she ended up doing so anyways.





If you believe that "God has a plan for us all", and that "everything has a reason", well that's basically what I'm implying and is what I am trying to get everyone else to understand, and not just stop at hatred or sadness.

wow.. hold up a minute there buddy, I wouldn't use that word "GOD" on these threads, there are them atheists lurking about this site, who apparently worship the god atheos or something...And even though I sometimes believe in god and sometimes not, I don't think it pertains to this subject, especially in that context, because what you need to understand is that there are plenty of jaded former god believers. And all that you said will not sit right with them. Especially when you say that this god has a plan for everybody, and it was all part of his plan....You do see the fine line you walk with that one, between optimism and the just plain denial of facts or especially were feeling are involved. For you see when you tell someone, who's daughter or relative just got shot, that it was part of gods plan...It does tend to raise some question's about this god, and his plans. If you know what I mean. Basically there would be many that would not share your point of view or religion, or your god period, they might even start to question what kind of god you worship.....So lets just keep it at bad stuff happened, it needs to be looked at so that it may be avoided in future scenarios....Leave god out of the equation for now. But I'm all for stopping the hatred and sadness.



If we are to give meaning to her death, I feel we need to begin to understand what created the events that surround her death. This leads us to Jared and the information that shaped his decision to murder.

You know I think if answered semantics to everything you wrote, this might go by quickly. But yes by all means if you want to look to the information that would of shaped his decision to murder, then go ahead. Just remember the semantics.



That information is something he wanted us all to discover for ourselves and which he tried to put forth, but that I feel because of his corrupt mental state had a hard time doing. Thats why his vids appear completely neurotic and incoherent. But that does not mean he did not have something important to say.

Lost soul, there is a whole history and world behind those words, so it says plenty, just look into it. I'm not going to go into all that, way to much writing it would require. And what are you going to give me a word like the tv did that word being evil and some picture...Because that reason is just silly and I think you know that, it's like those who put that up have the conception of a four year old, or something...# they even went on to say, oh but he was a loner...oh noss he was them evilss, loner is bad see watch out for thems...And I was like, what the funk, your trying to argue that a sheeple that got separated from the heard and ostracized by that same heard and was the black sheep, and now has also become the sacrificial sheep, for the excuses and inhibitions of some...It's like they cant grasp the concept that sometimes the cause and effect are one and the same. But I admit it's a little funny listening to that...but mostly it's just sad, they need to try harder. Anyways whatever moving on.



That being the case, that he was pretty much incoherent, he knew he would not be able to get the attention he needed in order to get the message he wanted to spread to the whole public

Ever hear this phrase "Misery loves company" Or this one "even the hollowest nut wants to be cracked" So don't be surprised that those in a world of confusion and pain would want to share there confusion and pain. Like usually begets like, in this world. So therefore misery begot misery.



In his videos he gave us guidelines that helped me to determine that message, and that is now what I'm trying to explain to everyone who does not our will not try to understand. I proabbly need to edit the grammar in the OP so that it is a little clearer.

Yes just keep the semantics in mind. Thats all I really wanted to say.



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by asperetty
 


Excellent breakdown. I thought the same things about the video's he posted. Creativity is infinite currency that can not be controlled, unless we allowed it. The guy though is off his rocker. He is spot on, but seemingly not aware of how to articulate what he is thinking. The comments about grammar being used to control in my opinion represents his frustration with attempting to put things into words that normal people would understand. I personally have times where I am not able to label a concept so others understand. When speaking of new creative ideas it is difficult to define exactly what the idea is. I wonder if this is what he meant by his grammar comments.

If anyone of us made up some great concept, way out of the box, the only way to express ourselves is through the grammar we have been supplied and that which we understand. In reality, we just have not defined the grammar we all understand to explain the topic or idea. I really feel like this guy had some mental problems and was trying to make sense of a world which made no sense. Because of his lack of understanding and not being able to reason and articulate his ideas he went off the deep end as nobody understood him.

I think the lesson we can all learn, is to try our damnest to understand someone who is not making sense to us. We just might be helping them feel connected and introducing them to new "grammar."



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 05:27 PM
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also, if there were less grammar nazis or if the grammar nazis were more subtle and sensitive perhaps grammar "communists" lol we could also use humor in a more constructive way that helps out an OP, there would be less bickering, and those who want advice should get it. from here or at home or wherever.



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by galadofwarthethird
 


Yeah you took out of context everything I said and you told me you don't want to believe there was something more to learn from this. That's fine. What is expressing opinion other than semantics? I think you understand now what I meant by 'sacrifice' at least, and so I will just leave it there.
edit on 12-1-2011 by asperetty because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 13 2011 @ 06:27 AM
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I too have studied this fractured mind and think it was caused by an innate understanding that things weren't right with his limited world view, so that, with a glimpse of what could be, when he went looking for an answer, none could be found and the contradictions of gold tore through the slippery hand-holds of a confused reality.

However, the answers to his quest are actually being readied in AI systems that are destined to deconstruct the currency based economy. It only needs a Linus crossed with a Bill Hicks; a Nemesis to the Intergovernmental Money System, to peddle a voodoo sci-fi blog as hypnotic hacker stand-up...



posted on Jan, 13 2011 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by asperetty
 


The guys a fruitcake. He's been in and out of mental hospitals. He doesn't deserve our attention. That's all he wants is attention and now he's gotten at the expense of human lives that did no wrong to him. he talks about illiteracy he's the one who's illiterate. All his crap his nothing but mashed potatoes in word form.



posted on Jan, 13 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by ExPostFacto
 


He didn't come up with those ridiculous ideas on his own. He said he is the creator? who's creator? sure as hell ain't mine.



posted on Jan, 13 2011 @ 02:26 PM
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First post so bare with me. You really put some effort into this article, and i applaud you. Sadly, I tend to agree with some of the other users that you are merely trying to put meaning to something that has none. This person was living in a warped dream world, apparently also using hallucinogens. Your analysis shows more of your need to find meaning behind a senseless act, than it does shed light on this individual. It's hard to understand, but each person lives in their own reality. Your reality is not mine, we might see similar, but the world you exist in is completely at the mercy of your senses. There is no reality but that which your brain creates for you to help you understand. The colors you see aren't colors at all, they are different wavelengths of light bouncing off surfaces. Your reality is what you perceive and perception and reality are not one in the same.

This warped kid lived in a different reality than most people, he killed a 9 year old girl for x sake. Trying to find meaning in this is a pointless adventure that only serves to help YOU as it's you that desperately needs there to be a reason.

There is no reason, the kid was warped, angry, and on drugs. Mix in a gun and you've got what happened. There's no ritualistic side, there's no conspiracy. And as mentioned in another thread, he's "innocent until proven guilty" yet I'm pretty sure the numerous eye witnesses could talk to you about his guilt.

I think the saddest part of this is how TPTB have grabbed onto this to use as a political tool, that's the shame, Obama using a memorial as a pep rally, that's the shame. Pundits complaining that the girls parents went on TV too early is the shame.

I'd like people, if they need to dwell on this subject, maybe take a minute to think about the people affected by this act, not the person who did it.

P.S. He doesn't classify as a serial killer, he would be a mass murderer, I believe a serial killer needs to kill more than 3 victims, not shoot a bunch of people standing in a crowd. At least a serial killer has a need, a desire, to do what they do, there's a sick twisted reason to that. This mofo merely wanted to create chaos.



posted on Jan, 13 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by asperetty
 


I agree with Asperetty. He killed a 9 year old girl. Who the F cares why he did it or what his deranged thinking was? He's not a martyr or a sage. He's a murderer.



posted on Jan, 14 2011 @ 03:40 AM
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wow! this man had a message? and what could that be? pour the blood of the innocents on you and you shall be free from the government? He should have read that Bible they gave him in the service. Remember: the beginning of ALL WISDOM begins with the FEAR OF GOD.


[end of line]


edit on 14-1-2011 by Xinthose because: I added the picture -_-



posted on Jan, 15 2011 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by asperetty
 
"This does not necessarily mean he joined any religious sect or cult, but I believe he is trying to tell us he was introduced into something. And the tests? Why, if we are take his writings at face value, would they give a mini-bible before an army test? Can anyone in the military elaborate on this? Otherwise I can only speculate that he was in fact taken under the wing of some secret entity, or that some entity is trying to impose some sort of thought process or idea upon him and possibly the entire military as well."

Hi asperetty, My ex was in the Army here in the UK and he told me that when he signed up he was told to pledge allegiance to queen, country and God. He refused as he is an atheist and was taken aside where his commitment to queen and country only was accepted leaving out the God part. So I believe he was of a like mind who did not want to pledge an allegiance to something he did not hold true?



posted on Jan, 16 2011 @ 04:00 AM
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The OP has done a great job defending his/her position, in that Laughner attempted to deliver a message. This was interesting as when I watched the Youtube vids and read through the ATS posts, I was not able to identify any rationale. I believe the OP also shares similar views as Laughner (or is simply intelligent enough to identify them), which are not necessarily unfounded.

Difference between the two is that OP is able to articulate, while Laughner is battling a serious thought disorder... if I had to guess - disorganized schizophrenia. The fact that campus police were regularly dealing with his outbursts, coupled with the video he made touring his campus, make me fairly positive in this regard.

I however have no sympathy for Laughner and hope that prison tortures his soul, until the day someone gives him the Jeffrey Dahmer exit ceremony.



posted on Jan, 21 2011 @ 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by Xinthose
wow! this man had a message? and what could that be? pour the blood of the innocents on you and you shall be free from the government? He should have read that Bible they gave him in the service. Remember: the beginning of ALL WISDOM begins with the FEAR OF GOD.


[end of line]


edit on 14-1-2011 by Xinthose because: I added the picture -_-


Has anyone noticed how contorted the left side of his face and neck are. Very tell-tale.



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