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AZ Shooting: Another Failure Of Psychics and Prophecy

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posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen
But I would guess that the response would be that this incident was minor enough to fail to merit the divination of a prophecy, and that psychics see the future of the specific person who is asking, so unless the Congresswoman or judge or someone was seeing such a practitioner, it wouldn't come up.


Let's take that at face value. This presumes that there is an order of magnitude by which events can manifest into precognition. At what point does the event become significant? Does 9/11 qualify? Psychics didn't see that either. Also, how does that order of magnitude par up to Bem's study in which the object was not murder, but pornography? That seems it should be seriously low on the order of magnitude.


Good to see you again, TD, I hope that you have been well!


Likewise, sir! I always enjoyed our conversations. Thanks for chiming in today!




posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
But I would guess that the response would be that this incident was minor enough to fail to merit the divination of a prophecy, and that psychics see the future of the specific person who is asking, so unless the Congresswoman or judge or someone was seeing such a practitioner, it wouldn't come up.


Let's take that at face value. This presumes that there is an order of magnitude by which events can manifest into precognition. At what point does the event become significant? Does 9/11 qualify? Psychics didn't see that either. Also, how does that order of magnitude par up to Bem's study in which the object was not murder, but pornography? That seems it should be seriously low on the order of magnitude.


Again, I see those (at least as they are represented) as two (well, three) different things. Psychics -- not relevant, because they claim to see a specific person's future. The "Psi" thing -- not relevant, because I think that it's something goofier than seeing the future -- what, I don't know, but like I said, it recalled the earlier study on decision making.

So, we're left with prophecy, the general foretelling of events in the future. I do not believe that time is bidirectional, at least not on a macro scale, so I once again dismiss those who lay claim to such insights, particularly if they are EVER wrong. As a theist, I believe that God exists outside of time, so he would know the future, and that he can divine this to people, and that he has, in the past. Christianity, after all, includes that a fair amount of the Old Testament is actually prophetic testimony to the divinity of Christ.

Your point, as to what merits prophecy or not, is a good one, and the easiest answer is "I don't know." But if I speculate, it would seem that God doesn't do a lot of foretelling, unless it is foretelling stuff about his plan, so if something isn't foretold, it's not something associated with that plan. There are those, of course, who do claim that 9/11 was revealed in this manner or that (the "Biblical Code" guys come to mind) but finding prophecy after the fact seems to me to be a bit suspect.

For me, God seems to be pretty "hands off", at least as regards the last couple thousand years, so I think it highly unlikely that minor events such as these would be messages that he'd send.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen
As a theist, I believe that God exists outside of time, so he would know the future, and that he can divine this to people, and that he has, in the past.


Interesting concept and I've heard this from other theists. I'm curious though - as it seems contradicting - if god is "outside of time", how then can god relate to and operate in the future and past? Future and past are points in time, not outside of it.


Your point, as to what merits prophecy or not, is a good one, and the easiest answer is "I don't know." But if I speculate, it would seem that God doesn't do a lot of foretelling


From this statement and the rest of your paragraph I suspect you disbelieve in the individual psychic, that only god does the "predicting" by inspiring individuals from time to time? That certainly seems in line with the astonishing failure rate of so-called "psychics".



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


Did the psychics sign a contract to predict all tragic events?? This smacks of a completley fallacious argument. Why should psychics have predicted this tragic event. It may be better to debunk what the psychics DID predict as opposed to what they did not.

That would be fair game and not what is implied in your OP.
edit on 10-1-2011 by tiger5 because: add a line



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by tiger5
Did the psychics sign a contract to predict all tragic events?? This smacks of a completley fallacious argument. Why should psychics have predicted this tragic event. It may be better to debunk what the psychics DID predict as opposed to what they did not.

That would be fair game and not what is implied in your OP.


I'll accept that as a valid argument.
What DID psychics predict?



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 


I neither know what the psychic predict nor do I care. I just want a lously nickel for each time someone predicted the end of the world, rapture, or disclosure. I am not being greedy (lol)



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:23 AM
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Why did alleged psychics not only not forsee the tragedy, but ALSO the alien commanding the shooter?


I see the future as uncertain, everything has input so anything can happen. Some people may get glimpses here and there from one reason or another, others are able to study trends and can see patterns recurring. Not sure how many techniques are possible, would expect they all have different capabilities and consequences.

When I first looked into this I was thinking something like a Manchurian Candidate with a MK Ultra backend. When you start to step in black projects hard to say what is going on exactly. At the moment I am just saying don't rule it out just yet. How many psychics do you know that are even aware of alien commanders to make that connection?



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by kwakakev
How many psychics do you know that are even aware of alien commanders to make that connection?


Are you suggesting that "psychics" must be aware of certain components of reality to operate?
---



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by tiger5
I neither know what the psychic predict nor do I care. I just want a lously nickel for each time someone predicted the end of the world, rapture, or disclosure. I am not being greedy (lol)


Sounds like you're in my boat. Psychics fail across the board at seeing things.

The things they say they've seen will happen don't happen. The things that do happen aren't seen.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
As a theist, I believe that God exists outside of time, so he would know the future, and that he can divine this to people, and that he has, in the past.


Interesting concept and I've heard this from other theists. I'm curious though - as it seems contradicting - if god is "outside of time", how then can god relate to and operate in the future and past? Future and past are points in time, not outside of it.


To me, eternity (the existence outside of time) is a very puzzling thing, I can't wrap my head around the notion when I try to. My wife died nine months ago, to me. To her, I have no idea. It might seem like nine months, nine years or nine minutes, because we are no longer progressing in time together.

About the best explanation that I've seen is this. Picture a piece of paper. Put a dot on one side of the paper, which represents your birth, and another dot on the other side, which represents your death. Draw a line from birth to death, this movement (and line) represents your life. The line is not God, the line is time.

God is the piece of paper.


From this statement and the rest of your paragraph I suspect you disbelieve in the individual psychic, that only god does the "predicting" by inspiring individuals from time to time? That certainly seems in line with the astonishing failure rate of so-called "psychics".


No, I do not put any faith in psychics, horoscopes or any other sorts of things that claim to tell the future of a given person, or even forthcoming events. While I can see how God might accomplish it (or even a person who is with God, outside of time,) I see no means of it working within a non bidirectional time stream, such as we have, and I fail to see why God would favour "Miss Cleo" with the insights required to tell fortunes.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

To me, eternity (the existence outside of time) is a very puzzling thing, I can't wrap my head around the notion when I try to.


I enjoyed the piece of paper analogy - I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Is eternity actually "the existence outside of time", or would it be a timeline with no actual end?



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 




Are you suggesting that "psychics" must be aware of certain components of reality to operate?


Yes, how else can their brain comprehend the concepts. How could a blind psychic make a prediction on colour if he has never seen it? It is meaningless to his view of reality.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by kwakakev
Yes, how else can their brain comprehend the concepts. How could a blind psychic make a prediction on colour if he has never seen it? It is meaningless to his view of reality.


Have you seen this alien commander? If not, how can you have any suspicion about it?

Any modern westernized person calling themselves a psychic would almost certainly have a concept of what an alien is. This should not impede forseeing of the event, even if he/she were to say that something/someone will cause him to do it.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen

To me, eternity (the existence outside of time) is a very puzzling thing, I can't wrap my head around the notion when I try to.


I enjoyed the piece of paper analogy - I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Is eternity actually "the existence outside of time", or would it be a timeline with no actual end?


Nope, that's generally referred to as "Everlasting Life", a different thing, particularly as the Bible portends that it will happen here, on Earth, after the Last Judgement. There are a number of Christian beliefs about what happens to the dead in the meantime, but mine (which is fairly common) is that they are with God, where ever that happens to be, but, as God exists outside of time, so would they. They (we) are not eternal -- we came into being at some point, but we will have everlasting life.

As a practical example, which you are welcome to view with some (a lot of :-) incredulity, in this thread, I discuss an incident that happened to me last fall, where some foreknowledge would be required for my wife to have intervened. If she is outside of time, I guess that would account for it -- she knew that, on that day, I would come close to dying, and set things in motion a couple of days ahead of time.

Most NDE accounts include a description of people who are already deceased meeting the newly departed, but there have also been a few that I've come across where the person claims to have been met by someone who isn't dead yet. One was a woman who was terrified of dying because she didn't want to leave her husband, but shortly before she died, she calmed down and when her husband asked her why, she replied "It's going to be okay. You're already here." Though that sort of report certainly seems to discredit the NDE, it also might point back to the whole fluid nature of time in the afterlife -- that he knew her anxiety could be eased by being there at the point she died, even though he was still very much alive, in this reality.

Like I said, mind numbingly confusing


That's a way that I can see that sort of thing working out, but, again, I don't ascribe such things to fortunetellers and people who make vague prognostications about the future.
edit on 10-1-2011 by adjensen because: no does not mean on



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 




Have you seen this alien commander? If not, how can you have any suspicion about it?


I have not seen this commander, not that I can remember anyway. I have been studying the field of exopolitics for some time, the political implications with extraterrestrial life. I consider myself more into prediction than psychic. Just as studying physics can predict the bounce of a ball, studying life can predict the bounce of life so to speak, a bit of intuition helps at times but a strong foundation in the sciences and history is important.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 02:01 PM
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Actually, there is a psychic I know who DID predict a mass shooting in the southwest that would be at a shopping center as well as describing shakeups and changes in the congress due to deaths. She goes by the name of CBW on www.prophecies.us (the post predictions forum)

The first time she posted about the mass shooting she saw in the southwest was a while ago in 2010 but just recently posted it again on 1/1/2011 for this year's predictions:

"6. In Netherlands, Sweden and surrounding countries, I see ongoing and increased mass shootings and killings, like US Columbine. There will be political and spiritual upheaval in Sweden. (this is already happening but I am posting this again)...This happened in 2010. I believe we will see more horrifying crimes and mass shootings everywhere and it will not always involve guns. This includes the US, Netherlands, Sweden, Japan, China and other places. This will be due to sick, twisted people taking out their sick rage on innocents. This will include schools, colleges, work sites and some shopping centers."

and then she says:

"Remember what I said about the shoot out in the West. That vision is strong and likely sooner, rather than later event. At least 10 police plus civilians will be harmed..."


Interestingly, while I was looking at her old predictions for what quotes I also found this old prediction from her that seems to be unrelated but definitely could be related to the mass shooting she has been seeing for quite a while ago:

"Space problems for both shuttle and space station, there is a potential for the space station crew to be forced to evacuate. I see a scandal at NASA involving a murder-suicide which will involve at least one astronaut. I also said BIG secrets will be revealed in a book and recall that a book was being published but then never heard about it again. I also see an attempted act of intentional harm by an unbalanced person to seek to harm a mission but it will be caught in time. Charges will be filed against the person involved."


CBW from prophecies.us



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Not ONE single so-called "prophecy" saw this coming or warned anyone about it.



What a load of tosh.

Look at this prophecy written 8 days before New Years :

The 010111 Prophecy by Sollog



THE LEADER IS ASSASSINATED
IS IT A BULLET IN THE HEAD OR DOES HIS PLANE FALL FROM THE SKY
ANOTHER MORTAL DIES AS I WARNED


8 days after new years Gabrielle Giffords gets a bullet in the head.

Also Pakistan governor Salman Taseer was assassinated a few day earlier. He was shot in the head.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by BellaMente
"Remember what I said about the shoot out in the West. That vision is strong and likely sooner, rather than later event. At least 10 police plus civilians will be harmed..."


Interesting, though so vague it could apply to nearly anything. Particularly with near daily violence in border areas around the U.S. Southwest.

This was not a shootout and as far as I know it did not involve 10 or more police being harmed.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by TheTimeMachine

Look at this prophecy written 8 days before New Years :

The 010111 Prophecy by Sollog


The entire entry in the link appears to be the rantings of a madman. Extremely vague and cryptic nonsense designed to serve as a mold for a variety of tragic events. Does this stuff actually qualify as accurate precognitive prediction?



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 06:06 PM
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Hey guys,

I just finished reading that Daryl Bem paper; stopping to click that link just ate up my whole afternoon and inspired me to a rare upgrade from lurker to poster. I'd like to summarize the paper and put it into context:

The paper describes 10 studies that involve 50-200 participants per study, 20-70 trials per participant. This has enough statistical relevance to indicate something. He uses undergrads from his college that sign up for an 'ESP study', but in the experiments he never gives them an explicit ESP-related goal (he never asks them to predict something). He does some of the normal psychological tests to show subliminal influence, only he time-reverses it.

Let me go into some detail here so you can get the gist of the time reversal:

Normally, you can show a subliminal effect with a two-stage procedure:

1: You show the test subject a subliminal message (flash a picture or something)
2: That message has some effect on the subject, which you can then measure.

But what Daryl Bem shows is that you can measure the subject first, then show him a subliminal message, and the result is the same (the message affects the measurement)... Very interesting, to say the least.

So, what does it mean? It means Bem has shown good evidence that people have a (very weak) psi ability, that operates on a subconscious level.

What about the big-time psychics and such? Well, they are most likely all bogus, because even assuming Bem's research is valid, psi ability should be weak (so no big predictions) and subconscious (so you don't control it or even realize the effect of it)

Well, I'll be going back to lurking then...



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