An Opinion on Area 51 Underground

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posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
I find it sad and annoying that people with limited experience with area 51 somehow think they know everything there is to know about that place based on rational probabilities alone. As though everything in the world functions rationally. Headlines...it does not!


You can talk to former base workers. They have experience with the base.
The DoD is the DoD. The CIA is the CIA. They behave in established patterns. There is great inertia at these organizations.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
If some people say area 51 serves as both a military test facility and as a ufo storage area, I have no problem believing them. Sure area 51 is very remote but still you would not want the people working above ground with only a secret clearance getting involved with those that work underground with a top secret clearance or better.

Do I think area 51 is the mecca of ufology? No, that would be dulce nm!


All base workers swear the UFO story is pure garbage.

To control access, workers are sequestered as needed. Again, for the umpteenth time, former base workers say there is nothing underground at Groom Lake. Obviously if you think about it, there is no reason to build underground at Groom Lake. Let me say this a different way. There is nothing underground at Groom Lake. Or to put it more bluntly, there is nothing underground at Groom Lake.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
People who are interested in the truth spend lots of time doing research online and buying/reading books and videos. Those who only have a superficial interest spend their time here debunking.


Ah yes, the internet is the source of all truth. Oh, and no BS on youtube either.

Book are sold to make money. Thus you need to investigate the motive behind the books publication. Hint: you can sell a lot more books if you mention UFOs in them.

Have you considered reading declassified documents?


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Hell even the deceased former chief of lockhead skunkworks ben rich said on his deathbed confession:

"We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity….. anything you can imagine we already know how to do.”


Funny how the Waverider keeps failing. I guess Lockheed isn't releasing the secret sauce. Need I mention a dozen more failing research projects to convince you the Ben Rich quote is meaningless.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Why would someone that important say something like that on his deathbed confession if there was no substance to the allegations of ufos at area 51? Does not make sense!


Funny how that loony statement isn't in his autobiography. If you look at the person that talked to Rich before he died, the story is a bit different.
Ben Rich quote

No engineer in his right mind would ever make this comment: "anything you can imagine we already know how to do.”
I can shoot holes in that statement all day long. It is trivial to declare that statement to be complete bull#. Example. We can fly a plane from DC to LA. OK. Now since we already know how to do everything. fly that plane with only 1% of the fuel normally required. That would be greeted with deafening silence. It is kind of hard to defy the laws of physics.




posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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This was a great read, but as for having to drill and haul away the "muck" there have been reports of a nuclear subterrene. Im not going to go into detail but i found a site that does a great job explaing it. projectcamelot.org... the thing to look at is just a little past half way on the page. But as for everything else GREAT read



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by gariac

You can talk to former base workers. They have experience with the base.
The DoD is the DoD. The CIA is the CIA. They behave in established patterns. There is great inertia at these organizations.


It should be obvious to you that a)many of the workers there did NOT work on the ultra-classified projects and/or b)even those that did would never talk about it. They sign non-disclosure documents and are not allowed to indulge information.

Despite this some people have talked about it. You don't believe them. Your problem!



All base workers swear the UFO story is pure garbage.


Who are "all the base workers"? Bill Uhouse say otherwise. Ufo Hunters say otherwise. John Lear says otherwise. Phil Schneider says otherwise. Bob Lazar says otherwise. Thomas Castello says otherwise. Ben Rich said otherwise on his deathbed confession.


To control access, workers are sequestered as needed. Again, for the umpteenth time, former base workers say there is nothing underground at Groom Lake. Obviously if you think about it, there is no reason to build underground at Groom Lake. Let me say this a different way. There is nothing underground at Groom Lake. Or to put it more bluntly, there is nothing underground at Groom Lake.


And how the hell would you know gariac? You ask 5-10 people who had a secret clearance, they not wanting to get in trouble tell you "nah just some random research going on" and you swallow it up like its the word of god.

Or you take your low focus binoculars and try to see FROM 4O MILES AWAY.




Ah yes, the internet is the source of all truth. Oh, and no BS on youtube either.


Why do you have an intimate interest defending the government's version of what is going on?


Book are sold to make money. Thus you need to investigate the motive behind the books publication. Hint: you can sell a lot more books if you mention UFOs in them.


Ah yeah. Books are ok UNLESS they contain REAL information. Then people like you have to come to ats and TRY to debunk everything while being rude about it.


Have you considered reading declassified documents?


It should be obvious that some things will not get declassified anytime soon.


Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
Hell even the deceased former chief of lockhead skunkworks ben rich said on his deathbed confession:

"We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity….. anything you can imagine we already know how to do.”





No engineer in his right mind would ever make this comment: "anything you can imagine we already know how to do.”

I can shoot holes in that statement all day long. It is trivial to declare that statement to be complete bull#. Example. We can fly a plane from DC to LA. OK. Now since we already know how to do everything. fly that plane with only 1% of the fuel normally required. That would be greeted with deafening silence. It is kind of hard to defy the laws of physics.


The only holes you shoot are in your credibility. You come across like a very DESPERATE debunker.

BTW I am not here trying to convince you. It is obvious NOTHING will ever change your mind. I have provided sources in the past, as others have and you come up with the lamest excuses.



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 12:35 AM
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"Bill Uhouse say otherwise. Ufo Hunters say otherwise. John Lear says otherwise. Phil Schneider says otherwise. Bob Lazar says otherwise. Thomas Castello says otherwise. Ben Rich said otherwise on his deathbed confession."

If one is trying to make a convincing argument about Groom Lake, it is best not to mention names such as Lazar, Schneider, Castello and yes John Lear. [No machine on the moon is going to steal my soul.] Seriously, the UFO hunters is one of your sources?

Regarding Ben RIch, I have to assume you didn't watch the video. He made a claim of 50 years advanced technology, but even that is most likely crap. You do realize the NSA used to make the same claim about advanced technology, yet they have terminated many of their projects and gone COTS. Their wafer fab is history since they couldn't keep up with technology let alone be advance. You are doing good if you can stay a decade ahead of COTS. I counter that most Lockheed projects are obsolete about 5 years before they leave the factory. This is easily proven since the technology is moving while the projects are being built. In any design, you have to freeze it at some point in order to buy parts and build it. The general plan is you do block upgrades at some later time. Case in point is the study to put Lighting II avionics in the Raptor.

I gather you aren't a tech worker. Nobody in the biz would accept such statements about technology as fact.

I also gather you have never set foot near Groom Lake. Tikaboo is 26 miles, not 40, and you need a telescope, not binoculars.

You are free to believe in the tooth fairy. I just have to debunk your nonsense rather than let it be stated as fact. By the way, I hate to break this to you, but your parents are the tooth fairy.



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by VeritatisIgnotae
 


Do you really think nobody on this forum has read that project camelot crap. Do a search on ATS and there are over 10 pages of hits on project camelot.

We don't have nuclear powered bores. They simply grind the rock. You might want to read up on the law of conservation of mass. You can change its state and/or release energy, but you can't destroy matter. If you vaporize rock, you have rock vapor that you need to get rid of. But of course vaporized rock won't remain a vapor as it cools.

At what point in time did high school physics become an option? No wonder we're importing foreign engineers and scientists.



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by gariac
 


Lol! You are my favorite poster, and the reason I created an account here.

I feel like I am able to see both sides here. I have been interested in Area 51 and "UFOs" for as long as I can remember. I have always WANTED to believe.

But the more I pay attention to what's going on around me and in the world, I've come to realize that things are not nearly as complicated as we would sometimes like them to be.

Weather I like it or not, you are more than likely (like, 99% more than likely) right.

I think where most people who are into this stuff, sometimes go astray, is that what you are saying here, doesn't mean that "There is no such thing as UFOs". it just means that we have yet to really understand as much as we'd like to think we do, about them.

It would make a mind-blowing reality, if we had super secret alien UFO's at a super secret military base in the desert. And sure, there is still a (VERY SMALL) possibility, that that is actually going on.
But unfortunately, there just has not been any real evidence to show that. And the "Evidence" that we "Do" have, is shaky at BEST.

I appreciate your posts. Because while you may not arrive at the conclusions that I would love to see... I have to respect them, because you're doing actual RESEARCH, as opposed to just taking in what everyone else says.

Kudos.



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 01:57 AM
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Come to think of it, I'd would be convinced if someone produced an alien body or a piece of a craft using material not from the planet. It is just that shaky videos of lights in the sky kind of looks like shaky videos of lights in the sky.

I saw this video from a space alien appear recently on youtube, but I suspect it is a fake.

edit on 7-9-2012 by gariac because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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my opinion on area51 it has secret crafts and also human hybrids i rekon



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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and possibly the answer to the reason why were all here aswell and what r destiny may hold



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by bethy
 


Doubt area 51 holds any of those answers. Its just an R&D base for classified aircraft. It's history is pretty well known. They aren't holding aliens there. maybe elsewhere but not there.

A friend of mine was an ex para rescue forward air combat controller in the air force. I've brought up the idea of aliens at area 51. He got the opportunity to go there once for some reason when serving. He said it's pretty much like most other air bases. and that at no time did he see anything extraterrestrial. He said he knows of black project/classified aircraft they were testing there back when he was serving but that none of it's extraterrestrial related and that he wouldn't talk about it. I actually have to give the guys serving in the military some credit about not talking about stuff. I've gotten friends of mine who are SEALs drunk, they still don't spill much. Some stuff that would be considered not for public knowledge but nothing super secret and UFO like. No real UFO stuff they could share on at all. Learned that SEALS do a lot more than shooting guns and that with hard suits they often dive down to really, really deep depths for training. Probably for espionage purposes etc. but man the figure he stated was not just a few hundred feet down, closer to a 1000 feet down.

But it's totally possible that nothing ET related is going on at area 51 just that the security is so tight because major corporations use area 51 as a testing ground and don't want anybody spying. Not just other countries but other corporations. Were talking about research that will lead to major patents that will make each corporation billions of dollars. hence the secrecy.



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


You get on him about believing things that someone said about the base, yet you are basing your opinion on exactly the same thing - words from people (whether it be written or spoken, no matter). That really doesnt make a lot of sense, does it?

At my current workplace, I sit roughly fifteen feet from two gentlemen that are Air Force retirees, both of which have worked at both Nellis and Groom Lake in the past. Both of them continue to maintain a DoD-issued Secret security clearance (as do I) as a requirement of their current employment. Based on a relatively educated guess, I would deem them both to be trustworthy individuals.

The subject of aliens and UFOs at Groom Lake is often brought up when a new person (or seasoned, but more oblivious person) learns that these two gentlemen worked down there. People mentioning this is most often met with a great deal of laughter, shaking of the head, and facepalming. While there are multiple "life-sized" vinyl Marvin the Martian stickers at various locations throughout, they both also say the whole alien and UFO thing is a farce.

As far as underground structures go, my understanding is that there are things such as basement-level storage areas and things of that sort, nut nothing that you would call out of the ordinary. If I was going to be skeptical about anything, the underground thing would be it, simply because of the fact that it would provide added value for storage. But honestly, I'm not even really skeptical about this.

Secret projects there? Sure thing. UFOs and aliens? Nah.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by gariac
"Bill Uhouse say otherwise. Ufo Hunters say otherwise. John Lear says otherwise. Phil Schneider says otherwise. Bob Lazar says otherwise. Thomas Castello says otherwise. Ben Rich said otherwise on his deathbed confession."


If one is trying to make a convincing argument about Groom Lake, it is best not to mention names such as Lazar, Schneider, Castello and yes John Lear. [No machine on the moon is going to steal my soul.] Seriously, the UFO hunters is one of your sources?


So everyone that believes area 51 is housing alien technology, you belittle them!

I can use whatever sources I want to support my arguement. That is the purpose of having a debate.


Regarding Ben RIch, I have to assume you didn't watch the video. He made a claim of 50 years advanced technology, but even that is most likely crap. You do realize the NSA used to make the same claim about advanced technology, yet they have terminated many of their projects and gone COTS. Their wafer fab is history since they couldn't keep up with technology let alone be advance. You are doing good if you can stay a decade ahead of COTS. I counter that most Lockheed projects are obsolete about 5 years before they leave the factory. This is easily proven since the technology is moving while the projects are being built. In any design, you have to freeze it at some point in order to buy parts and build it. The general plan is you do block upgrades at some later time. Case in point is the study to put Lighting II avionics in the Raptor.


To some degree that may be true.


I gather you aren't a tech worker. Nobody in the biz would accept such statements about technology as fact.


Well ben rich is not exactly a nobody. He was the former director of lockhead skunkworks.


I also gather you have never set foot near Groom Lake. Tikaboo is 26 miles, not 40, and you need a telescope, not binoculars.


I was referring to a comment you made months ago about papoose lake when you were desperately trying to debunk robert lazar and all his credentials. You did not say 26 miles then. Look it up if you must!


You are free to believe in the tooth fairy. I just have to debunk your nonsense rather than let it be stated as fact. By the way, I hate to break this to you, but your parents are the tooth fairy.


So you are going to CONTINUE RIDICULING anyone that disagree's with you? Who do you think you are to do so? Others have provided their credentials, while you have not.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by flyswatter
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


You get on him about believing things that someone said about the base, yet you are basing your opinion on exactly the same thing - words from people (whether it be written or spoken, no matter). That really doesnt make a lot of sense, does it?


I use sources that have gone on the record stating stuff and they have provided their credentials.

It is NOT the same thing as him using annonymous scared people.



Secret projects there? Sure thing. UFOs and aliens? Nah.


Anything is possible. Ufos are real. Thousands of people have seen them for thousands of years. There has been a plethora of information gathered and spread over time. The information is available nearly everywhere for those that can entertain wild ideas.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by flyswatter
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


You get on him about believing things that someone said about the base, yet you are basing your opinion on exactly the same thing - words from people (whether it be written or spoken, no matter). That really doesnt make a lot of sense, does it?


I use sources that have gone on the record stating stuff and they have provided their credentials.

It is NOT the same thing as him using annonymous scared people.



Secret projects there? Sure thing. UFOs and aliens? Nah.


Anything is possible. Ufos are real. Thousands of people have seen them for thousands of years. There has been a plethora of information gathered and spread over time. The information is available nearly everywhere for those that can entertain wild ideas.


Sources for both of you have their drawbacks. I dont think either of you really has any room for complaints about the credibility of the others.

I really should have clarified things a bit better, avoiding falling into the trap of saying that UFOs are aliens. Unidentified Flying Objects exist, I agree. UFOs to most, anyway - I dont think the UFOs that people see are aliens, and I dont think that aliens are being housed at any bases around the country.



posted on Sep, 10 2012 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Ben Rich made a moronic statement. No engineer would ever say such crap.

You are confusing Papoose Lake with Groom Lake. Bonanza Peak is a viewing location for Papoose Lake. Distances to places on the range are about 40 miles. You can also see the Lockheed facility at Yucca Lake from Bonanza Peak.

Papoose Lake is passed by hundreds of planes a day, presumably tens of thousand of potential viewers. It is a crappy place for a secret base. You can even see Groom Lake from flights along route 95. Tom Mahood has a much easier viewing location from Mt. Stirling. You don't have to go to the top of the mountain to see Papoose Lake from the Mt. Stirling area. The trail is quite easy by Nevada standards. There is nothing, I repeat nothing at Papoose Lake.

The Lockheed facility at Yucca Lake is a bugger to see. It is tucked away close to the base of a mountain. As a person that does on-scene investigation, I can tell from radio transmissions that the facility is used quite a bit. The radio traffic for the AOF is unique. There is no ATIS there, so they contact "Bird Dog" over at Desert Rock to get weather and clearance. Bird Dog informs Nellis ATC of the AOF air traffic since the Janets pass over their tracks and need to be deconflicted.

Amazing what you can learn if you actually visit the place rather then deal with con artists peddling dubious books or videos. SIGINT and PHOTOINT is hard to dispute. HUMINT can be truth,BS or even disinformation.



posted on Sep, 10 2012 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by gariac
reply to post by VeritatisIgnotae
 


Do you really think nobody on this forum has read that project camelot crap. Do a search on ATS and there are over 10 pages of hits on project camelot.


I find it quite interesting to be honest.


We don't have nuclear powered bores. They simply grind the rock. You might want to read up on the law of conservation of mass. You can change its state and/or release energy, but you can't destroy matter. If you vaporize rock, you have rock vapor that you need to get rid of. But of course vaporized rock won't remain a vapor as it cools.


They are called vents and they can be hidden in bushes, in caves, etc. The vents carry all the vapors out so that the workers don't choke in the tunnels.

Three seperate patents appear to exist of the nuclear subterrene all filed by LANL. I really don't feel like posting them here because a simple google search would confirm that. One employees a super-heated electric element, one a nuclear reactor and third is for soft/unstable rock. Up to 15 miles can be dug in 24 hours. There is no muck because the rock is melted to form a nice smooth glass linning. Then they can build vacuum tubes for high speed mag-lev trains that run up to mock 2.

If they want to dig out a cave to build a dumb they can use small scale tactical nukes. The radiation is somehow contained, I guess much like all the nuke tests at the NTS.


At what point in time did high school physics become an option? No wonder we're importing foreign engineers and scientists.


American physics is no worse than indian or chineese physics. The zeti reticulean physics however are much better lmao.



posted on Sep, 10 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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An interesting video that ties it all together.



posted on Sep, 10 2012 @ 11:26 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


I was going to respond to him about all the holes in his rant on my comment, but felt it was a waste of time. But seeing as how you did, i will to. High school physics had taught me that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light without being turned directly into energy. www.nytimes.com... but i guess i should just disregard this new edvience. lol



posted on Sep, 10 2012 @ 11:51 PM
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Wasn't the groom lake base originally built on a deep silver mine? I find it extremely asinine if a government installation housing some of the worlds top scientists that engineer and develop cutting edge military aircraft were not provided bunkers to protect them in case of nuclear attack. This would have been especially important during the cold war when the Soviets and America both stared at each other with their fingers firmly held on the "nuclear button".

I find it very difficult to believe that Offut airbase has a 1.3km deep bunker, yet area 51, one the most secretive research facilities in the world, would not... It would only be logical to protect important materials, people, information, computers, data storage, etc safely underground in the event of war. I would even be willing to bet my entire retirement portfolio that a few of those aircraft hangers are equipped with elevator floors.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
Wasn't the groom lake base originally built on a deep silver mine? I find it extremely asinine if a government installation housing some of the worlds top scientists that engineer and develop cutting edge military aircraft were not provided bunkers to protect them in case of nuclear attack. This would have been especially important during the cold war when the Soviets and America both stared at each other with their fingers firmly held on the "nuclear button".

I find it very difficult to believe that Offut airbase has a 1.3km deep bunker, yet area 51, one the most secretive research facilities in the world, would not... It would only be logical to protect important materials, people, information, computers, data storage, etc safely underground in the event of war. I would even be willing to bet my entire retirement portfolio that a few of those aircraft hangers are equipped with elevator floors.


The possibility of a hangar (or similar aircraft-sized building) having a hydraulic unit to take aircraft to storage below has been discussed in the past, and it's entirely possible that they could have this sort of thing there. But there's a big difference between a hangar with underground storage and a DUMB. I could absolutely see the former being a possibility, while the latter does not exist, at least not in the context that many describe.





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