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Originally posted by kimish
I saw that before. I believe a conclusion was made that back then Jesus was a popular name so they can't be sure or not if it is in fact the tomb of the biblical Jesus.
Originally posted by thethetheluis
Just fyi dude lol it's not a question "did jesus really exist?" he for sure did dude, so did muhammad and budda ect. They were all real people of course it's just whether you choose to believe in what they did ect ect.
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Which contradicts the claim of salvation can be achieved only through Jesus.
…a specialist in ancient apocryphal text, Professor Francois Bovon, who is quoted in the film as saying the enigmatic ossuary inscription "Mariamne" is the same woman known as Mary Magdalene - one of the filmmakers' critical arguments - issued a disclaimer stating that he did not believe that "Mariamne" stood for Mary of Magdalene at all.
Source
Originally posted by adjensen
... which shows that Gnostic Christians aren't Christians, lol.
The Gospel of Thomas is a forgery (in the sense that it wasn't written by who it claims to be written by -- the twin brother of Jesus, Jude) that is generally dated about 100 years after Christ died, and is clearly a Gnostic document that combines some things that Jesus is quoted as having said in the New Testament with other things that he couldn't possibly have said.
Originally posted by adjensen
For your OP, there have been a number of refutations of claims made in that film, including some who participated in it:
…a specialist in ancient apocryphal text, Professor Francois Bovon, who is quoted in the film as saying the enigmatic ossuary inscription "Mariamne" is the same woman known as Mary Magdalene - one of the filmmakers' critical arguments - issued a disclaimer stating that he did not believe that "Mariamne" stood for Mary of Magdalene at all.
Source
Originally posted by adjensen
You can find more, but it seems rather unlikely that this was the tomb of Jesus, the guy in the Bible. Your Christian Gnostics wouldn't have believed it anyway, as most of them viewed Christ as not actually having a body to bury in the first place.
A lot of people claim that there is no proof of a historical Jesus.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Originally posted by adjensen
... which shows that Gnostic Christians aren't Christians, lol.
The Gospel of Thomas is a forgery (in the sense that it wasn't written by who it claims to be written by -- the twin brother of Jesus, Jude) that is generally dated about 100 years after Christ died, and is clearly a Gnostic document that combines some things that Jesus is quoted as having said in the New Testament with other things that he couldn't possibly have said.
Why do you claim it is a forgery? because of the possible date it was written? I think you have no idea on what dates were written the new testament books of the bible, they all were written around the same time and some were written. They all seemed to have been written down at about 33 AD, until about 92 AD. or so, so because of the "possible dates" are from about 130 AD - 250 BCE does not mean this was a forgery, more so when these could be copies of early manuscripts that haven't been found yet.
Did those people watch the documentary? The University of Toronto statistician Professor Andrey Feuerverger said from the beginning what they are claiming in that blog that he is claiming now. in essence they are claiming he backtracked when in fact that is exactly what he said from the beginning "that the possibility of finding those names in the same tomb were those odds."
BTW, that link you gave is a blog for staunch atheists, so it is not an unbiased source. The statitician did not backtrack, he reafirmed what he said on the documentary.
What are the odds of finding all those names together under the same family tomb? It is not like back in those days there were hundreds of thousands, or millions of people living in that area.
Originally posted by adjensen
Um, you're kind of all over the map there, but the canonical Gospels (Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn) are all dated probably mid-50sAD to maybe (for John) 90AD or so. Paul's letters obviously predate his death in 67AD. The rest of it probably falls somewhere in between. We have evidence that the New Testament canon was in pretty much the form it is now (with two "extra" books and missing a couple of the Epistles) in the early second century.
Originally posted by adjensen
....
So, by nature of the fact that the Gospel of Thomas represents this later, mature view of Christian Gnosticism, it cannot have been written by the Apostle Thomas (which is a misconception, anyway, but it's what some believe for some reason) or Jesus' twin brother Jude (which is what the text testifies to.) In terms of description of ancient manuscripts, this is why it is referred to as a forgery.
Originally posted by adjensen
Well, you're talking about someone else than the person cited there. Regardless, there are plenty of critics of your documentary, I merely cited one.
Originally posted by adjensen
I have no idea, not being an archaeologist, but there probably were hundreds of thousands living in that area, and if you read the Bible, one thing you're struck with is how unimaginitive they were with names -- tons of Johns, Simons, Marys. Not a Britney or Dylan in the lotedit on 10-1-2011 by adjensen because: tag repair and I give up after four edits, lol
Excursus: The Number of Pilgrims
The book estimates about 125,000 pilgrims to the festivals. This study is based on the number of animals killed at a Passover (18,000), how many could eat of each animal (ca. 10), the number of people killed at wars during the festivals, and the number in the courts. The population of Jerusalem was about 50,000 (so the number rose to 125,000 in the festivals. This number is too high, probably; most would say a population of about 30,000 in Jerusalem, swelling to 80,000 or even more at the festivals.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Since when does 67 AD predates Jesus' death? Jesus Christ supposedly died in 33 AD. Or are you talking about Paul's death? Either way, it took Paul 34 years to start writing about Jesus?
Since when does 67 AD predates Jesus' death?
No matter, it still took from 19 years to 89 years for the New testament books to be written, so you want to accept just some books but not others because the church claims those are the ones you must believe? And please don't tell me "the boks were chosen by God" because hey were chosen by men who THOUGHT they knew what God wanted from them.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Originally posted by adjensen
Um, you're kind of all over the map there, but the canonical Gospels (Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn) are all dated probably mid-50sAD to maybe (for John) 90AD or so. Paul's letters obviously predate his death in 67AD. The rest of it probably falls somewhere in between. We have evidence that the New Testament canon was in pretty much the form it is now (with two "extra" books and missing a couple of the Epistles) in the early second century.
Since when does 67 AD predates Jesus' death? Jesus Christ supposedly died in 33 AD. Or are you talking about Paul's death? Either way, it took Paul 34 years to start writing about Jesus?
Why are you so willing to accept the claimed writings of Paul, which were 34 years after Jesus' death, but not that of non-canonical books?
And where is this proof that the New testament was written in the same form as it is now?
No, they are viewed as a forgery because these books give a completely different view of what could be the real teachings of Jesus and his disciples, that's why.
Excursus: The Number of Pilgrims
The book estimates about 125,000 pilgrims to the festivals. This study is based on the number of animals killed at a Passover (18,000), how many could eat of each animal (ca. 10), the number of people killed at wars during the festivals, and the number in the courts. The population of Jerusalem was about 50,000 (so the number rose to 125,000 in the festivals. This number is too high, probably; most would say a population of about 30,000 in Jerusalem, swelling to 80,000 or even more at the festivals.
Originally posted by schuyler
I think the discussion is diverging to an argument over the gospels, which one is correct, etc
Lawrence E. Stager, the Dorot professor of archaeology of Israel at Harvard, said the documentary was "exploiting the whole trend that caught on with The Da Vinci Code. One of the problems is there are so many biblically illiterate people around the world that they don't know what is real judicious assessment and what is what some of us in the field call 'fantastic archaeology.'"