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The God of the gaps

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posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by impaired
 


I have absolutly no problem with you stud. We're good And I agree about all of us together. Is this where we break into the chorus of Kumbai yah or however the hell it's spelt.


The will


Sorry, I tend to use figures of speech more often than is good for me.

As per the bible, who made the tree and told us that we must not eat of it?

(That's what I mean by waving temptation in our face)
edit on 10/1/2011 by TheWill


Well now it seems as though you are making it out to be just another tree. It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He warned us what would happen not only if we disobeyed him but of the consequences that came from eating thereof.. What more can you ask of a loving Father? Would your father just let you go play on the hi-way with Macs and Peterbuilts roaring about ? I tend to think not. Then if you go out there any way and get slammed WTF? Do you blame your pops?
edit on 10-1-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-1-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-1-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


No, but unless my father made a huge park especially for me to run around in, then built a highway going nowhere through the middle of it, and populated it with motorists, then it's not really the same, is it?

Because if he did that, it would be reasonable to assume that he built the highway to see if I got hit.

EDIT: also, from what I remember, we would only understand good and evil - and therefore morality - after we had eaten from the tree, and as such we would only be able to know that we should not eat from the tree after we had actually done it.



By the way, I have to congratulate you on being one of the two most balanced and sane people that I have had this disagreement with on ATS. And, what's more, you haven't gone into exclamation mark overload, which is always a plus.
edit on 10/1/2011 by TheWill because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs
Impaired




This is directed at the Abrahamic god. This is not directed at any other possibility of creation.

With that said, I will remain agnostic - which is admitting that I just don't know.

"I just don't know" - what's so hard about that? And that's where I disagree with atheists.

Atheists seem ignorant to the fact that there is an order in the universe (or at least that some kind of entity created it all). But I can't stand how the Abrahamic Religion Complex (all 3 - I'm not picking on just 1) ruins it for others. My theory is that most atheists are angry at "god" because they can't stand Yahweh and his ridiculous actions.

This ruins it for those atheists because since Yahweh and Allah hog up the word "god" (which I think is a gross misnomer), they think the only possibility of a god (perhaps - I could be wrong - I admit, unlike others) is a scumbag entity.

So I will stay right here in the middle - admitting that we can't know if there is a god and if there is we just don't have enough information yet to actually describe it (I personally believe in a NEUTRAL creation entity of some sort which we would all be a part of if we came from the same singularity).

But I, of course, will state that's just a BELIEF - NOT FACT. Why do others have to promulgate their god or TOTAL lack of god/creator to be the truth?????????

Both sides appear ignorant in their own ways, but I will side with an atheist over a typical creationist any day.


In the light of your stance on the issue I think this an excellent post.


Bet you thought I was just going to ignore you again huh ? Not at all, I just have to ask you to please, stay away from that one pet peave. :lol :No hard feelings as that is a fault of mine not yours. Just irratating, I dunno.
edit on 10-1-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)


The point. It's not which religion or creed of faith we belong to; those are irrelevant. It is the "intent of the heart" which is most important. Through-out history, conversions and mergers have happened to cultures and beliefs, even to civilizations, which fragmented and translated inaccuracies. Paranoia breeds unbridled suspicions without proper knowledge of context or content. Our charge is to be vigilant in-keeping with upright ways. If the intents of the heart are true, they are known to God. Why should we worry, unless there is a default.



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I'd recommend Googling "what did Jesus say about heaven" and compare the results to your own claims about heaven. I think you'll notice the differences are apparent...


I do not need to google what Jesus had to say about heaven, I have read his words and learned his lessons in life.

Heaven is right before our eyes. It is this existence, this glorious existence we have been gifted. It is all how you look at things. If you are constantly finding fault in Gods work, this creation, then you will obviously not see it as a heaven. If you stop judging and just learn about it, you will be filled everyday with wonder. There is an infinite amount of things to see, feel, hear, touch, to experience. There are enough mysteries in a single grain of sand to occupy ones whole life in study. This is OUR gift, to experience it all and discover it all. It is perfect.

What we have done with it, not so perfect.

Throwing aside your judgements will open your eyes to even more wonders. You will see that Man is perfect as well. From the structure of the human body which is able to adapt to every clime and place on this planet, to the wonders of the human mind able to unlock mystery after mystery of the bountiful creation. We are not flawed sinful beasts that we have made ourselves out to be. We are a perfect creature suffering from the dellusion of imperfection. We feel we are imperfect so we are locked in a constant struggle to be better for our creator. We judge each other, we judge our actions, we judge our beliefs, we judge our relations, we are never ending in our judgement. We are NOT the JUDGE. This is Mans folly and has been the bane of our existence. We have judged ourselves so much that some have said enough! There is no God to measure up to. Those who say this are correct. God made us each perfect. All God wanted was for us to go forth and multiply. To do this we must love. Without love, we do not seek to multiply, we seek to divide and subtract.

We are babies my friend. I do not have all the answers to everything. I do know what we are doing wrong, and I do know what we are capable of if we stop judging, start loving, and focus on making this world heaven for all. I am already there.

Here is my vision of Heaven, one of my first Posts here.

Heaven

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 10-1-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by randyvs
I think it's ironic that so many great ancient civilizations on earth have so much to do with serpants. Yet you can mock the Bibles account of this phenomena. You may need to rethink your stance on that one at least.


Most theologians do not take the talking snake literally. It is a symbol, in this case, of the lowliest beast on earth. So lowly it crawled on its belly. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods will, they did so at the urging of their lowest beastial desires. Furthermore, they did not accept the blame for their indiscretions, they blamed the serpent, the lowliest beast.

To this day this is what man does when he does something wrong. He shifts blame to something else. We still follow our lowliest beastial desires, what ever is good for ourselves.

We have to accept the blame sooner or later. It isn't the serpents fault, we all have logic and reason to do what is good for us all.

In other cultures the serpent is regarded quite differently.

With Love,

Your Brother

That makes great sense. still fits for me as well . I think I like it.


Nice switch from implying talking snakes are possible to "it's just meant as a symbol". Very clever...whatever fits works, right?


You base your entire belief around what seems most plausible while still fitting your belief system. I'm saying "most plausible" and not "plausible" because until you prove either hypothesis, both are pure speculation. But you already made it clear you don't care about rationality/objectivity/logic and rather rely on belief/subjectivity...which you can of course.
edit on 10-1-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2011 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by MrXYZ
 



You base your entire belief around what seems most plausible while still fitting your belief system. I'm saying "most plausible" and not "plausible" because until you prove either hypothesis, both are pure speculation. But you already made it clear you don't care about rationality/objectivity/logic and rather rely on belief/subjectivity...which you can of course.


Well I can accept that even the way you say it. That dosn't mean that there is no rationality or logic to/in what I believe. It's the very reason I'm not not a total barbarian. I'm positive I would be, without it. Life hasn't always dealt fairly with me and I don't mean to sob all over Gods creatrion about it. What I mean to say is without Jesus Christ (applause applause and the crowd goes wild)
I would be one bent Mofo. Possibly taking out a whole host of things, ideas and my fellow human beings. As I'm more than capable of such craziness. I've been tamed.

One might say.
edit on 10-1-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 02:25 AM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


If your belief makes you a better person there's no harm done. I just hope you don't follow some of the more irrational Christian doctrines like not eating shrimp or hating gays



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 06:40 AM
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reply to post by randyvs
 


You can't explain religion with science; it's like asking a gynecologist to do a psychologist work!

People find magic in decimal numbers, not understanding that it's caused by the limitation of the decimal system; like Pi has an infinity of decimal numbers because it's following the principle of geometry and not accounting. The lottery-numbers are divided between same half amount of odd and even numbers!

Our brain enjoy recognition, and putting stuff like patterns into systems like probability, to utilize it's functionality!

The methods of measurement is not a method of understanding, but a result of the ability to compare; to measure something to be circular may make it perceptual round, but neither explain why nor how; but as long as you recognize it to be round, that's practically all you need to know. Still, if you want to know why; you must first be able to recognize it without having to measure it! To understand the nature of creation you must (first) rule out time....



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by randyvs
 


If your belief makes you a better person there's no harm done. I just hope you don't follow some of the more irrational Christian doctrines like not eating shrimp or hating gays


Those are not Christian doctrines my friend, those are doctrines found in Jewish law that many Christians like to revert back to. Christ gave two commandments that if done, fulfilled the Ten commandments which preceded Jewish Ceremonial law. Christ's commandments were to Love God with all your being, and your neighbor as yourself. There was nothing about what to eat or what not to eat, nor was there anything about hating anyone. Simple.

Now, in defence of the Jewish Law which prohibited the diet and sexual relations, you must look at it in context.

Lets say YOU are the Rabbi of a small band of Jews. Your tribe number 100. Of that 100, you have a 50/50 mix of gals to guys. You are the one they turn to for leadership. You are expected to have the wisdom to help the tribe grow and survive. Would you allow homosexual behavior? How long would your tribe survive? Lets say you only have one gay couple and one lesbian couple. Your tribe has already lost two breeding pairs.

Now lets take them to the beach to rustle up some shrimp. Mmmm Shrimp! The tribe has a feast of shrimp this night. Tomorrow, they dine on the left overs. Uh-oh! Your tribe just got hit by a food poisoning epidemic. There is no refrigeration you see. Due to the bouts of explosive diarrhoea and vomiting you lose 7 males and 3 females! The homosexuals didn't get up for breakfast so they are unaffected. Now you have lost 9 breeding pairs and have 4 extra women with no mates.

Ok great wise one, your tribe is not looking so good now. The people look to you for answers. What do you do now?

The same thing our government is doing to us daily. Outlaw this, outlaw that, make everyone safe and protect the longevity of the tribe. You give up your own free will to be in the tribe and follow the will of a leader. The laws are based on love of the tribe, not love of the individual. Just like our laws in our various countries.

This is what Jesus came to wake people up from and why he only gave two commandments. None of the early laws were as perfect in representing Gods will, to love one another. They were good attempts for the time, but flawed none-the-less.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM
Those are not Christian doctrines my friend, those are doctrines found in Jewish law that many Christians like to revert back to. Christ gave two commandments that if done, fulfilled the Ten commandments which preceded Jewish Ceremonial law. Christ's commandments were to Love God with all your being, and your neighbor as yourself. There was nothing about what to eat or what not to eat, nor was there anything about hating anyone. Simple.


No, there were a lot more instructions from Jesus that had nothing to do with the Ten Commandments and were quite frankly, asinine suggestions. Sell everything and give the cash to the poor. Follow me,leave your family and take no thought for the morrow. Gouge your eye out and cut your hand off if necessary.

Though Jesus did have some radically merciful ideas for his era and society, to reduce his teachings down to two "simple" things is intellectually dishonest.



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
I'd recommend Googling "what did Jesus say about heaven" and compare the results to your own claims about heaven. I think you'll notice the differences are apparent...


I do not need to google what Jesus had to say about heaven, I have read his words and learned his lessons in life.

Heaven is right before our eyes. It is this existence, this glorious existence we have been gifted. It is all how you look at things.


No, you actually to need to google it since, as I said, your ideas of heaven and Jesus' are completely different. You've have performed the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and gone on with stuff you made up about your ideas of heaven, believing it to parallel Jesus. You could not be more wrong and really should take the time to educate yourself.



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
No, you actually to need to google it since, as I said, your ideas of heaven and Jesus' are completely different. You've have performed the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and gone on with stuff you made up about your ideas of heaven, believing it to parallel Jesus. You could not be more wrong and really should take the time to educate yourself.


This is not how a conversation works my friend. You do not get frustrated with another's points, throw your hands in the air, and say "just go google it". If you have a counter point to make, make it. Google will turn up many results, most of which are other peoples opinions and they vary. There is no way for me to ascertain what YOU interpret Christ's views to be that way.

If you wish to make YOUR view known, provide the verse and tell me how YOU feel it conflicts. Then I will explain my view.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
No, there were a lot more instructions from Jesus that had nothing to do with the Ten Commandments and were quite frankly, asinine suggestions. Sell everything and give the cash to the poor. Follow me,leave your family and take no thought for the morrow. Gouge your eye out and cut your hand off if necessary.

Though Jesus did have some radically merciful ideas for his era and society, to reduce his teachings down to two "simple" things is intellectually dishonest.


Prove it,

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:07 AM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM
Prove it,

With Love,

Your Brother


If I give you a phrase to Google, will you simply tell me you don't need to and simply proceed along with your reductionist interpretations of christianity?



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM
This is not how a conversation works my friend. You do not get frustrated with another's points, throw your hands in the air, and say "just go google it". If you have a counter point to make, make it. Google will turn up many results, most of which are other peoples opinions and they vary. There is no way for me to ascertain what YOU interpret Christ's views to be that way.


My point was made when I pointed out that what you say about heaven is different than what Jesus said. It's your job to make sure that the things you say are on solid footing, not mine. You can either actually read a bible, or if you desire more expediency, you can use Google. Until then, don't delude yourself with the notion that your claims about heaven are even remotely congruent with Jesus'.



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
If I give you a phrase to Google, will you simply tell me you don't need to and simply proceed along with your reductionist interpretations of christianity?


If you wish to have a conversation, lets have one. If you wish to send me on a wild goose chase for your thoughts, I will pass.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
My point was made when I pointed out that what you say about heaven is different than what Jesus said. It's your job to make sure that the things you say are on solid footing, not mine. You can either actually read a bible, or if you desire more expediency, you can use Google. Until then, don't delude yourself with the notion that your claims about heaven are even remotely congruent with Jesus'.


I don't quote biblical passages. I offer my interpretation of them. The reader of my words can then decide for themselves if they match up. You say they don't and I can understand why. You think Jesus wants you to cut off your own hand and poke out your eyes. You do not understand metaphor. I offer to show you, but you must first point out what you do not understand. If you do not wish to, keep your view. It will only continue to fill you with bitterness.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
My point was made when I pointed out that what you say about heaven is different than what Jesus said. It's your job to make sure that the things you say are on solid footing, not mine. You can either actually read a bible, or if you desire more expediency, you can use Google. Until then, don't delude yourself with the notion that your claims about heaven are even remotely congruent with Jesus'.


I don't quote biblical passages. I offer my interpretation of them. The reader of my words can then decide for themselves if they match up.


They don't, as I've pointed out.
Read what Jesus had to say about heaven.



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
They don't, as I've pointed out.
Read what Jesus had to say about heaven.


Very well my friend, I'll do the work for you.

"The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man sowed in his field. Now a mustard seed is the least of seeds, but when it is full grown, it becomes the greatest of all herbs and is like a tree so that the birds of heaven are able to come and rest in the branches thereof."

Christ planted the seeds of Heaven by issuing his commandments to love God with all your being, and your neighbor as yourself. Since then, Christianity has spread around the world. Some forms of Christianity have landed in bad soil, and thus the seed did not take. The crop whithered and what remains is a bitter root which seeks not to love, but rather to dominate. Those bitter roots will soon be gathered up and tossed in the fire. This is not some mystical process. It is the law of cause and effect. If you seek to dominate a free willed being, in time, it will turn and dominate you.

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a sweep net which was cast into the sea, and it gathered up every kind of fish. Now, when the net was filled, the fishermen drew it up on the beach, where they sat down and sorted out the fish, gathering the good into vessels while the bad they threw away."

Another parable illustrating how Christs commandments went out into the world. They are the way to creating Heaven here. Some will reject them. By natural cause and effect those will be cast away, and soon.

"The kingdom of heaven is also like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, and in this way it came about that all of the meal was leavened."

Christs commandments are not restricted to Christianity. They are also the roots of Judaism and Islam. These three faiths are the dominant religions on the planet. While they all have grown into diametrically opposing forces, the root of them is the same, to love one another. Love is what united the three sects under their cultural umbrella. It is the common thread. When the three have exhausted themselves trying to exert dominance on each other, the followers will wake up to their roots, remember Gods law, and live in peace again.

"The kingdom of heaven is also like a merchant seeking goodly pearls; and having found one pearl of great price, he went out and sold everything he possessed that he might be able to buy the extraordinary pearl."

When you realise that the way to bring heaven to this earth is to have universal equality and love for all, you too will wish to give up all you have to make it happen. I am already there.

"The kingdom of heaven is also like a treasure hidden in a field, which a man discovered. In his joy he went forth to sell all he had that he might have the money to buy the field."

What would you sell of your own belongings to bring peace and prosperity to ALL?

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Jan, 11 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
They don't, as I've pointed out.
Read what Jesus had to say about heaven.


And you can try to wrap your head around this one if you'd like...

"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while he slept, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and hastened away. And so when the young blades sprang up and later were about to bring forth fruit, there appeared also the weeds. Then the servants of this householder came and said to him: `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Whence then come these weeds?' And he replied to his servants, `An enemy has done this.' The servants then asked their master, `Would you have us go out and pluck up these weeds?' But he answered them and said: `No, lest while you are gathering them up, you uproot the wheat also. Rather let them both grow together until the time of the harvest, when I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn and then gather up the wheat to be stored in my barn.'"


Christs seeds were the doctrine of Love. Since his time, many false doctrines have been wrapped around his teachings. This is fine, because his teachings spread with the false doctrines. The harvest mentioned is almost upon us. Our false doctrines have got us at each others throat. Soon, we will have a battle like none before whereby the false doctrines will be weeded out and cast away forever. Mankind has to try different doctrines to see which ones work. The simple doctrine of love will prevail, it always has. The Harvest is upon us. Can you not see the signs?

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 11-1-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)




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