Debate on gun control heats up after Giffords shooting

Originally posted by Cocasinpry
reply to post by NadaCambia

 

Dude, you're pulling stats out of thin air, not very cool. Post sources if you're going to make such claims. According to all these sources, you're statement couldn't any more inaccurate.

Levels of gun violence vary greatly across the world, with very high rates in South Africa and Colombia, as well as high levels in Thailand, Guatemala, and some other developing countries.[8] Levels of gun violence are low in Singapore, Chile, New Zealand, and many other countries.[8] The United States has the highest rate among developed countries.[9]

en.wikipedia.org...

The risk of death by gunshot has been cut in half in Canada and is far smaller than in the United States, Statistics Canada says. In a study issued on Monday, the federal agency notes that Canadian gun-control laws have been stiffened in recent decades and gun registration has been made compulsory, but it draws no conclusions about the cause of the falling death toll.

It says that 816 people — 767 males and 49 females — died of firearms-related injuries in Canada in 2002, the most recent year examined in the study. This represented 2.6 deaths per 100,000 population, down from 5.9 per 100,000 in 1979, it said. Guns seized by Toronto police in February 2005. Among males, the 2002 rate was 4.9 deaths per 100,000, down from 10.6 in 1979.

Among females, it was 0.3, down from 1.2. In a cross-border comparison for the year 2000, Statistics Canada says the risk of firearms death was more than three times as great for American males as for Canadian males and seven times as great for American females as for Canadian females. Because more of the U.S. deaths were homicides (as opposed to suicides or accidental deaths), the U.S. rate of gun homicide was nearly eight times Canada's, the agency says.

Homicides accounted for 38 per cent of deaths involving guns in the United States and 18 per cent in Canada. But even as Canada's rate of gun homicide shrank (to 0.4 per 100,000 population in 2002 from 0.8 in 1979), handguns moved into a dominant role. Handguns accounted for two-thirds of gun homicides in 2002, up from about half in the 1990s, the agency says.

Consistently through the period, The risk of death by gunshot has been cut in half in Canada and is far smaller than in the United States, Statistics Canada says. In a study issued on Monday, the federal agency notes that Canadian gun-control laws have been stiffened in recent decades and gun registration has been made compulsory, but it draws no conclusions about the cause of the falling death toll.

It says that 816 people — 767 males and 49 females — died of firearms-related injuries in Canada in 2002, the most recent year examined in the study. This represented 2.6 deaths per 100,000 population, down from 5.9 per 100,000 in 1979, it said. Guns seized by Toronto police in February 2005. Among males, the 2002 rate was 4.9 deaths per 100,000, down from 10.6 in 1979. Among females, it was 0.3, down from 1.2. In a cross-border comparison for the year 2000, Statistics Canada says the risk of firearms death was more than three times as great for American males as for Canadian males and seven times as great for American females as for Canadian females.

Because more of the U.S. deaths were homicides (as opposed to suicides or accidental deaths), the U.S. rate of gun homicide was nearly eight times Canada's, the agency says. Homicides accounted for 38 per cent of deaths involving guns in the United States and 18 per cent in Canada. But even as Canada's rate of gun homicide shrank (to 0.4 per 100,000 population in 2002 from 0.8 in 1979), handguns moved into a dominant role. Handguns accounted for two-thirds of gun homicides in 2002, up from about half in the 1990s, the agency says.

Consistently through the period, about four-fifths of Canadian firearms deaths were suicides, it says., it says.

Read more: www.cbc.ca...

With all due respect, you misread my posts.

What I said was crime is just as high and in many cases higher in nations with strict gun laws. Crime, not gun crime, but crime itself.

Why don't you have a look at that and get back to me.

i think it unwise for a person elected to pass a law for the benefit of his constituency to pass a law out of fear for en/actions of his/her duties.

Reply to post by Ausar

Nah, knee-jerk reactions are always the best way.

At least, they must be. Otherwise why would the gov run with them as often as they do? Clearly taking time to think is just wrong and that's why the gov never wastes time doing it.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 17,034 murders in the United States in 2006

Compared with other countries, the United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. As of 2006, a record 7 million people were behind bars, on probation or on parole, of which 2.2 million were incarcerated. The People's Republic of China ranks second with 1.5 million. The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.

As for Canada:

There were 2,452,787 crimes reported in 2006; 48% were property related crimes and 12.6% were violent crimes. At a rate of 7,518 reported incidents per 100,000 people, the crime rate in 2006, the latest year for which there is statistics, was the lowest crime rate in twenty-five years. The crime rate has been in general decline since 1991.

These are all crime and homicide rates; not gun related, so you're wrong again. If you want to argue FACTS then please provide some statistics to back up your claims. I couldn't find anything which proves what you said, everything I found points to the opposite.

In short: The US is the developed country with the highest crime rate in the world.
www.mapsofworld.com...

Originally posted by Cocasinpry
In short: The US is the developed country with the highest crime rate in the world.
www.mapsofworld.com...

Not so fast. That link doesn't adjust for the populations of the countries in question. In reality, if the US has 11.8M total crimes and the UK and Germany each have 6M+, their crime rate is actually much higher than that of the US. They're achieving a bit more than half the total number of crimes as the US, despite having populations that are only 1/5th and 1/4th, respectively, the size of that of the US.

In fact, your link actually just proved his assertion that even Canada has a higher crime rate than the US. It would be about .04 crimes per person in the US, versus about .075 in Canada.

If guns make you safer then it follows that more guns equal more safety.

So let's say we are now able to purchase and carry any gun legally. Anywhere anytime any gun any ammo ok.

Let's say I decide to mount a mini gun turrent on my Honda CRV with sun roof access

While my wife heads into Safeway with a sawed off shotgun strapped to her thigh I pop through the sun roof and man the mini gun. You and your kids come out of the Safeway and into the line of sight of my weapon.

Now I am a nice guy...really I am...a good guy...maybe you've even seen me at church (strapped with a tasteful Uzi) but here I am scanning the parking lot and entrance with my mini gun which fires 2000 to 6000 rounds per minute a hundred rounds per second wow (I gotta admit that gives me a stiffy)

Do you feel safer now? Just a question?

Originally posted by vor78

Originally posted by Cocasinpry
In short: The US is the developed country with the highest crime rate in the world.
www.mapsofworld.com...

Not so fast. That link doesn't adjust for the populations of the countries in question. In reality, if the US has 11.8M total crimes and the UK and Germany each have 6M+, their crime rate is actually much higher than that of the US. They're achieving a bit more than half the total number of crimes as the US, despite having populations that are only 1/5th and 1/4th, respectively, the size of that of the US.

In fact, your link actually just proved his assertion that even Canada has a higher crime rate than the US. It would be about .04 crimes per person in the US, versus about .075 in Canada.

edit on 10-1-2011 by vor78 because: (no reason given)

What you said made no sense at all; it's per 100,000 population in all countries. It doesn't matter if your country has 30 million or 300 million.

reply to post by Cocasinpry


No. The map title is incorrect. It is not giving a rate, but a total. In fact, it says as much in the key. I've given it as a per person rate, but its a rather simple matter of multiplying by 100,000 in order to get a rate per 100,000.

Otherwise, you have to believe that there are 11 million crimes per 100,000 in the US and 6.5 million in Germany and the UK, which is absurd.

reply to post by vor78


Dude, did you even read it?
It gives the total but equates it to per capita... seriously?

Here are the figures for murders per capita

# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people

www.nationmaster.com...

Now if you're going to claim otherwise, I'd really much appreciate some sources... otherwise it's just your word. I'm an open minded person but it'll take more than just your word to convince me, I'm not gullible like that.

Originally posted by Cocasinpry
Now if you're going to claim otherwise, I'd really much appreciate some sources...

LOL, I just gave you a source...the same one you posted last night! Did you forget? Here's what you said...again:

Originally posted by Cocasinpry

These are all crime and homicide rates; not gun related, so you're wrong again. If you want to argue FACTS then please provide some statistics to back up your claims. I couldn't find anything which proves what you said, everything I found points to the opposite.

In short: The US is the developed country with the highest crime rate in the world.
www.mapsofworld.com...

If you follow your own direct link to that 'mapsoftheworld' site that I've now quoted twice, it most assuredly does NOT provide that information. It gives a total number of crimes, and when that data is compared to population, it disproves your point.

I suppose I'll play along. You've used nationmaster as a source, so here's a link their site giving crime rates per capita around the world. Note that they list the US 8th. They have the UK 6th. Germany and Canada aren't far behind at 11 and 12.

However, and this is a big however...nationmaster is wrong. They've calculated several of those rates incorrectly If you compare the per capita data to their total crime data, it doesn't add up.

For example, they list the US at 80 per 1,000. The rate should be closer to 38 per 1,000...which is exactly what I posted earlier, but as a rate per person. Its simple math. The US has 310 million people, with 11.8 million total crimes. Crimes per capita=crimes per person. 11.8 million divided by 310 million is .038 crimes per person. To convert to per 1,000, which is nationmaster's means of comparison, just multiply by 1,000. It would be 38 per 1,000.

Proof, you say?

In 2004 America's crime rate was roughly the same as in 1970, with the homicide rate being at its lowest level since 1965. Overall, the national crime rate was 3977 crimes per 100,000 residents, down from 4852 crimes per 100,000 residents thirty years earlier in 1974 (-18%).[2]

Note that its given per 100,000, not per 1,000 as per nationmaster. To make them equivalent, just divide 3977 by 100, for 39.77. That's about 38, and the minor difference is likely accounted for by different years provided by the sources. You can get the same data from the US DOJ. Just select violent crime rates and property crime rates in the selection box.

But again, its not just the US rates that nationmaster has screwed up. Its several others as well. The UK has 61 milion people and 6.5 million total crimes. That rate would equate to 106 per 1,000, or 10,600 per 100,000, whichever you prefer. Canada would be 75 per 1,000, assuming a population of 33 million, a rate which admittedly isn't that far off nationmaster. Somehow, they got Germany just about right. Still, all three far higher than the US rate. Several others would be as well if you actually do the math.

....

Blech...never mind. I see why nation master's numbers are so screwed up. I thought it was probably a year or two old, but its based on a couple of decade-old UN studies. That explains why the German, UK and Canadian numbers are off a bit...I was using current population. As for their US crime rate being twice as high as the raw data indicates, I'm going to guess they weighted the data for some reason.

Originally posted by Cocasinpry

The US homicide rate, which has declined substantially since 1991, is still among the highest in the industrialized world. There were 17,034 murders in the United States in 2006

Compared with other countries, the United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. As of 2006, a record 7 million people were behind bars, on probation or on parole, of which 2.2 million were incarcerated. The People's Republic of China ranks second with 1.5 million. The United States has 5% of the world's population and 25% of the world's incarcerated population.

As for Canada:

There were 2,452,787 crimes reported in 2006; 48% were property related crimes and 12.6% were violent crimes. At a rate of 7,518 reported incidents per 100,000 people, the crime rate in 2006, the latest year for which there is statistics, was the lowest crime rate in twenty-five years. The crime rate has been in general decline since 1991.

These are all crime and homicide rates; not gun related, so you're wrong again. If you want to argue FACTS then please provide some statistics to back up your claims. I couldn't find anything which proves what you said, everything I found points to the opposite.

In short: The US is the developed country with the highest crime rate in the world.
www.mapsofworld.com...

What do incarceration rates have to do with anything? All that tells us is the American prison system is a farce. Which you know already. Why are you trying to deceive people with such stats? The last link you posted is incorrect. Total recorded crime is irrelevant.

www.nationmaster.com...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Many countries have higher recorded crime than the US. Which is amazing, considering America has some of the strictest, most petty laws in the world.

www.nationmaster.com...

Isn't that odd. US isn't even in the top 10 for countries where you're likely to be burgled.

Facts are facts. Guns are an excellent deterrent to crime. And a marginal increase in homicides is a cost worth paying for overall safety of the people. Especially when you consider alot of these homicides are probably criminals being shot

Originally posted by Cocasinpry
reply to post by vor78

 

Dude, did you even read it?
It gives the total but equates it to per capita... seriously?

Here are the figures for murders per capita

# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people

www.nationmaster.com...

Now if you're going to claim otherwise, I'd really much appreciate some sources... otherwise it's just your word. I'm an open minded person but it'll take more than just your word to convince me, I'm not gullible like that.

You're wrong. Perhaps you should better look at the pages you link to. The webmaster has made an error.

reply to post by NadaCambia


How about you provide some sources, you've contributed nothing so far to disprove all this. So far you've claimed that THREE sites have been wrong, so to reiterate.... How about you show me some statistics that prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Cocasinpry
reply to post by NadaCambia

 

How about you provide some sources, you've contributed nothing so far to disprove all this. So far you've claimed that THREE sites have been wrong, so to reiterate.... How about you show me some statistics that prove me wrong.

I just proved that per capita crime in the US is lower than in Britain and a host of other Democratic Western nations.

You've been proved wrong.

reply to post by NadaCambia


Show me how you calculated that by the links I provided, let's see you do math...

I want to understand the mind-set of those in favour of gun control.

I think a gun is nothing more than a tool, like any other tool it is only as beneficial or as dangerous as the human being holding/using it. Hypothetical scenario:

We have Mr. John Q. Public and he's a couple cups short of a tea-set. He has a gun and he's going to teach someone a lesson. So, he goes out and shoots up a crowd of innocent people and kills several and injures several.

Adversely, let's suppose he lost his gun before-hand, or he just can't get hold of one. Has he suddenly become less dangerous? Has he become less of a threat to the public just because he has no gun?

My point is this; People are transfixed on the gun itself, like that is what is doing all the killing. Is it really that difficult for people to imagine that without a gun a lunatic is still a lunatic and he/she is still going to accomplish whatever harm he/she intends whether he/she has a gun or not. Most killings are crimes of passion and are committed with whatever weapon happens to be handy at the time. If a gun is not within reach the would-be-killer is going to reach for the next available weapon, be it a knife, bat, club, iron, spoon, or whatever! Should we then start banning any and all implements that could conceivably be used as a weapon?

As long as there are the necessary checks involved in acquiring a gun we can do nothing more to guarantee our safety. We are going to be a lot more successful in preventing these types of occurrences if we focus on the unbalanced person rather than the tool he uses to inflict harm upon society. By allowing ourselves to fall victim to the gun-control debate we are only assisting the "powers that be" in disarming the public and opening ourselves to further oppression. They are using emotional issues like the Giffords shooting to get people angry at the guns instead of the unbalanced person wielding the gun so they can gather support for further weakening the public at large by removing their last line of defence, don't lose focus on the real issue here....the laws allowing lunatics to roam the streets.