The biggest logical hole in alien influence of ancient society.

reply to post by MrsBlonde


And you know what every slave master has done? Why you yourself said it. Limit their knowledge. Make them dumber. So why create them with that ability to learn at all? You still have not gotten over that massive hole in your belief. You named successes. What of the failures over the eons? For every successful slave empire, there was one that destroyed itself through it. Humans make mediocre slaves.

I'm not saying the animals I listed would do that. I'm saying their intelligence level would be better to manage. Please separate form and function. Humans built those things because they were told to. It was their designers that made it possible though. Without them, they've never have been done. And a human with a crow brain, or an ape brain, would have done it all the same, if not better and faster. No animal can do those things because they don't have a human master telling them to. In the same way, the fact that we can make those things proves we were not made to have masters.

You still have yet to show me why humans have to be intelligent. And once again, you destroy your own point. If aliens made us, they wouldn't have to restrict our right to read and write. They'd just design us not to be able to understand that. The fact that we can proves we were not created.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Why would creatures with presumably warp drive technology and other cool stuff teach Humans how to cut rocks and build big stuff? Of all the stuff they have, why teach that?

Now I've heard worship. But the flaw remains. What is their need? Why do they need us? And how can you know they even understand worship or religion, that they even look like us or are anything like us?

edit on 8-1-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

Just like today mate, our leaders only want citizens just smart enough to push the pencils and press the buttons, and just dumb enough to not see how badly their getting F*k'd buy the system.
Want good workers? Only teach them what they need to know...and that becomes all they know.

reply to post by Gorman91


If Bush ever had the Chance, I'm sure said something like:
Give a man a fish and you have, er fish. Teach a man to fish and, er you have a lotta Fish.

But they should have given then Phasers, because a few years the Romans come to town and Kick their A's

Originally posted by Gorman91
Also no offense, but geometry is a sign of primitive thought. Modern architects no longer use ratios nor geometries. They embody ideas and complex thoughts with architectural forms. That's why we don't build Greek temples anymore. It's not that impressive. With calculus and complex math, we make REALLY cool stuff that's not just a big triangle.

We don't even know what the function of these "big triangles" were.
The Great Pyramid is obviously something to do with geometry, with it being true north/south/east/west, and the perfect shape of the building. It clearly had a function that we are not aware of today, they didn't just build it to look cool.

reply to post by skeptic_al


If they gave them phasers, then they'd rule the Earth. If they taught them to fish... it was useless. humans have known how to fish since before we evolved.

reply to post by Griffo515


Or don't allow them to physically understand it. why build workers with the capacity to know it? Countless leaders would love such a species.

reply to post by HexagonSun


Yes we do know. It's perfect shape is for it's bricks and structural capacity. This is because they learned what didn't work from the fail pyramid at medium. It exploded on its own weight because of it's poor construction. They fixed those wrongs and built them better. No different than a building development program today. If you look at the 200 years of pyramid construction before the Giza ones, you see them leading up to that. The geometry had no purpose than grandness. It was the result of eons of evolution. Made by man. Not knowledge given.

we aren't that smart Gorman the aboriginal Tasmanians had no clothing and not even stone technology when the first English settlers arrived they got to Tasmania somehow and then forgot even stone tools they no tools no clothing they literally lived like monkeys
The Natives of Papua new possesses stone tools that were made thousands of years ago but they do not know how to make them!
we aren't that smart ,we can't seem to even realize that that our Gov't is lying to us most of the men on this planet are still discussing whether women are people and have souls. most of us are 3rd world citizens that make 1.00 a month and live in shacks made of tin and cardboard .Most of us live traditional cultures that don't allow new ideas and change or better ways of using resources or treating one another.We are dumb

the other poster is correct when he mentions that a lot of sites that we find mysterious are ruins and we have no idea what their function was we know for example that the pyramids were faced by limestone and the top was made of gold these sites are nothing like what they were designed to be and very little has been done to figure what that might have been

The biggest logical hole in the ancient astronaut hypothesis is that it relies on a God-of-the-Gaps argument, that is focusing on those tiny aspects of ancient history that are unknown or little understood (often by the proponents of the theory alone, not the wider historical/archaeological community).

The next biggest logical hole is the tendency for proponents of the theory to completely ignore, misappropriate or twist what the cultures they claim were influenced by aliens were themselves saying.

reply to post by MrsBlonde


They are dumb, not everyone. It is estimated that only 20-30% of the population actually accounts for intelligence beyond that of linear trial and error. But that 20-30% still exists. And would have existed back then, and under the rule of anyone. And, to parallel George Orwell, as long as they exist, man is free, if only in his mind. And will inevitably break free of physical bondage. You still have not accounted for, in all your argument, for how to cull this, when the simple alternative would be not to have beings with such an ability at all. And no, the other poster was not correct. The Egyptians wrote what the pyramids were for. Glory of the dead. That's what the first pyramid was for, that's what the pre-Giza pyramids were for, and at their height, that's what the Giza pyramids were for. Not only that, but they were not all built at the same time. The Giza pyramids were built one by one. In fact, the last one built, the smallest, represents the end of that former glory. They were no longer able to build them because their empire was collapsing. Thus the first intermediate period began. And when the middle kingdom was founded after that, new structures were born. Temples and burial sites far more complex than the pyramids. Though some knowledge was lost in the collapse, it was relearned and they moved on.

reply to post by Gorman91


I have given some thought to this question as well.

The answer is quite obvious.

The main goal of the visitors was not to teach.

They came here for something else.

My guess is that the only thing totally unique they would be after would be native artworks. Why art? well nothing else adds up to me. Our DNA? No, they could take a sampling from across the world and be done in our sleep. Materials? No, they could get what they need in greater quantities on unpopulated worlds and using robots. Teaching?- worst teachers ever- if you ask me because if they had wanted to they could of turned us into a space faring civilzation in a few generations. So no, not to teach technology, maybe teach philosophy then? if so then again they did a very bad job and left us with guidelines that have left humanity divided and at each others throats for millenia.

No they came here with little regard for what they would do to our long term development. They came, they sampled the locals, took some souveniers and left. The guilty among the stars may still visit to try and undo what the poachers have done...

Of course you could say that those who were first out among the stars do this to keep other peoples from springing up and endangering their own survival. They probably long ago learned when and where and how to intervene to ruin the development of a species.

Total speculation of course but from where I sit, they didn't do us any favors.

reply to post by Helmkat


See now that makes sense. Come down, pouch some humans and other species. Document, leave. That makes sense. To hell with the planet you're visiting. You want to see and feel, and then leave. Assuming, of course, you don't die of some disease from there. It makes sense. No conquest. No materials. No desires. Most anything we mere humans think as valuable you can find in 100X greater quantity elsewhere. Resources makes no sense. DNA is not that special, and yea, there's not a whole lot to land here for other than record some stuff and leave. They're either predator-like hunters, or scientists. Or more likely both.

However, I must honestly doubt they care about their own security and survival. When you have the whole stars at your disposal, then no government has any power. After all, if your government is even remotely what you don't want, you just get up and leave. There would be hundreds of governments, maybe even warring at each other, from just one species on one planet. Let alone a few dozen species on a few dozen planets. You end up with scattered people. Feudal states.

Gorman it is stated in the ancient accounts that some where selected for high status and honor some were married
and given inclusion in the ET society and some as now were imprisoned tortured and killed if their desire did not fit the Et agenda Some ere mocked ridiculed exiled or other wise marginalized ..just as is the technique of their heirs in power today

that's how they are culled

reply to post by MrsBlonde


Yes. because the ancient texts don't describe aliens. They describe human kings who were turned into gods because they were what the people worshiped. Signs of a deluded mind in love with itself and a people too dumb to think any different.

And all the same. In any such empire, the intelligent always eventually take to desiring kingship themselves, and use their intellect to rally the people to their cause. Once more blasting the need for intelligence in human slaves to pieces. You can give the smart people all the glory you want. They want to be king all the same. Give a smart slave your gold, and he'll give it to the people and order them to kill you so they can be king. That's they way it always goes. And that's why smarter kings just killed the smartest. Aliens, if they made us, wouldn't bother to make us intelligent. They'd just make us all dumber than apes and tell us to go do work.

Now, do you know what happens when people from foreign locations try the same? The people revolt. The longest lasting slave empire based on a foreign king was New Spain, and it only lasted a century or two before revolution. So. Again I ask. Where is there room for your aliens? Clearly there isn't.

What proof do you have that they were aliens versus self-loving humans? What's more likely? What do humans do? Hell, what do animals do? It's no different.

Now unless you have some real proof that ancient texts talked about aliens, please don't bother trying to argue your claim. It's a joke.

Here's the fact. Every theory you've posted I can find a hole in. Know why? Because you're a human making up the theory. And any alien more intelligent wouldn't not go about doing something that a human could understand. Because then people like me find holes in it.

The fact that I can poke holes in your theory proves it is of human origin.

reply to post by Gorman91


not everything is because of ETs they happened in the distant past they came made an impression and left or died
stories and mysteries abound

we do know they did not come from Earth because it is stated in multiple accounts they did not, they didn't have very lofty spirituality or ideals because their motivations are clear to conquer and subdue and dominate

that is apparently a hallmark of their species, civilization is easy to lose and it doesn't seem to stick, history shows this and that makes me think it is false construct imposed rather than a part of human nature

the ancients say it came from these ETs they called Gods , we don't understand everything we think we know

I personally have no attachment to these ETs but archeology continues to find ever and ever older cultures so we don't know how far back to go with this ,I'm not to worried about lack of evidence of ancient cultures since I don't think we would recognize it if we did find it ,like your nanobots hell they're subatomic!

you for your part seem to have a picture of an Alien civilization that doesn't seem to fit what is known about accounts of them and on that basis you are not willing to accept that they ever existed

I just believe the ancient texts because they have proven correct many times

Let's just say some people are to closed minded to get over the fact that something other than what a text book tells them happened might have. I am done arguing with people that try to list "facts" that prove otherwise. I have listed proof, not of aliens, but that the possibility exists. I countered your age of temples, with proof of older ages, I countered your log and occam's razor idea with proof of size that would make them impossible to move with these methods. The simple ancient texts that show humanoids flying through the sky, but talks of interaction with these people or aliens. Every culture's ancient past has some type of history of "visitors from the stars or skies". You argue why would they want to increase our intelligence because they couldn't control us. Really, making us smart enough to follow directions, doesn't make us smart enough to operate a spaceship. A righteous fear of their weapons and technology might have been enough to keep them in line. The fact the viewed these individuals as "gods" might have explained their obedience as well. The ancient texts of all religions explain these visitations. I have my beliefs, you have yours. An open mind is one that allows for a change to what may be or may have been told. There are points that can go either way, open to interpretation. Something you have faith in, some you don't. I agree to disagree with you on this outlook. Maybe one day there will be proof, not speculation either way.

However, I must honestly doubt they care about their own security and survival. When you have the whole stars at your disposal, then no government has any power. After all, if your government is even remotely what you don't want, you just get up and leave. There would be hundreds of governments, maybe even warring at each other, from just one species on one planet. Let alone a few dozen species on a few dozen planets. You end up with scattered people. Feudal states.

reply to post by Gorman91


I will speculate some more.

All life is driven by the need to survive, to protect its genetic heritage. I would highly doubt our neighbors are different, if their origins are DNA based I would say its a gaurentee. My thoughts next go to our current technology and it would seem right now Humans are moving toward a society where robots do all the dangerous tasks. We send probes out to the planets, we let robots build our cars, we are moving toward robots fighting our wars and why? because we like our flesh alive thanks, yet we are still curious. Now lets apply that same model to our stellar neighbors. That would seem to indicate that the majority of visitors here and their "occupants" are robots and the real "Greys", well they are sitting at home watching from safety.

What would draw the attention of these advanced people are dangers that would threaten their survival. That would be natural events and other beings that could reach their homeworld or important resources. This might be the nature of the German woodcuts, both parties fight over neutral territory, afterall they certainly don't care what the locals think. All in all you can bet they are protecting their assest with minimal risk to their own hides and if that means visiting the locals to keep them dumb and or droping an asteroid or two on their heads from time to time you can bet they do it.

reply to post by Gorman91


It took three days from 525 people to erect a stone that's like 50 times smaller than pretty much most of the ancient megaliths. And that proves 100 000 (?) people could create and move over two million blocks of stones that puts that small peace of stone to shame? In 20 years? I'm not claiming aliens build the pyramids. Just saying. I'm sure egyptians possessed some kind of technology we're not aware of today. Where did they get it from? I can only speculate. But I do not believe at all that they just dragged them with a bunch of ropes. On sand. There has been many stories of people lifting objects with sound. They might've easily figured that out. You get some crazy ideas when you're not limited with "science".

Are you going to explain to a cockroach that he is in the wrong house? Who knows and who are we to understand.

reply to post by MrsBlonde


It would be physically impossible to leave an impression on humanity if you came that far back. Without civilization, information lasts a mere few centuries. That is why myths are only as old as the civilizations that started them.

Saying they did no come from this world is your evidence? Did you know that there are plenty of people who claimed to come from the skies? The sky represented something beyond. It's basic nature. It's the same reason we fight for the top positions in society. Hell, it's the same reason birds fight for the highest perch. It's nature's way of saying your dominant. If you want to make yourself a god you don't claim to come from the lowly plains of the created people. You come from far above. That doesn't make you an alien.

Civilization doesn't stick because people don't like other people. Animals also have some form of culture and society. Guess what. It doesn't stick with them either. Every couple of generations a new ape takes the alpha male position. That's the natural way. Just because you have a bigger brain and guns doesn't mean civilization is going to work. You better believe civilization is an artificial creation. It's nature fighting nature. Nature erodes all things. and at the same time, natural selection favors those species able to resist that erosion. Civilization is a great force against it. But the natural way of things is to die.

Archeologists do find older and older culture because culture started with our ancestors 5 million years ago, and intensifying with what is known as "behavioral modernity" 50,000 years ago. However, there is a distinct line between culture and civilization like we know it today. The end of the ice age marked the change in the environment needed to create civilization. And there is not civilization which dates to before it's end some 10,000-15,000 years ago.

The ancient texts of which of the enumerable cultures that wrote them? There is no single image. Now there is the "Proto European culture" which I would argue plagues the culture of those nations infected with it From Spain to India. This culture was created with the first civilizations of the middle east and everything from Romean gods to Greek gods to Egyptian gods to Indian gods share some similarities. And there are a number of similarities. However, if we return to the root of it all, there's nothing alien about it. Each force of nature observed by mankind was given a name and a trait and called a god. These gods created man and animal alike and they exist for the sole purpose to being man's play things. Some cultures grew angry at this tradition, some people like the Greeks wrote of man conquering these false gods. In fact, some would argue that they began what is now known as atheism. And the reason was quite clear. It was a stupid line of tradition that was laughable when stacked up to real science and the real world around them. No aliens. Just forces of nature with names. Now that's the only thing that your "ancient texts" can be linked to. and once you actually investigate it all, you find that a grand majority of it was invented some 8-6000 years ago as civilizations started taking the tradition and making it for their own. Beyond that, the ancient writings of people are not similar at all. All except one thing. And I will give you this. Every single culture has a flood myth, and a "tree of life". But none of these hint at anything alien. They merely hint at some possible former knowledge of evolution and perhaps a great extinction, IE, The ice age melt down.

You can read up on this here:

en.wikipedia.org...

What you said does not only fit with what I know, it doesn't fit with accepted facts of history. And thus I reject it.

reply to post by eyeoftruth


Yea and I'll look forward for that day. But it aint coming unless you have a time machine.

Now if you ask me, I know how to make such things. Hell, I can tell you how to build a warp ship so you can go out and find them. I can tell you of people who tried, but Nasa took their pretty toys to research their own ends.

Lets see, use photon interaction to bend space at one end of your ship to create a gravity well, and then at the other end, the same thing, only spinning to create an ergosphere. Bang. You've got yourself a primitive warp drive. the ergo sphere pushes the ship towards the gravity well, but cannot get there. So the spacetime around the ship goes towards the gravity well, not the ship, and you travel faster than light.

Now why would an alien make a slave that can think up that?

You provided half truths, with no sources. I provided sources that proved your claims wrong. Aliens you claim can easily be ghosts going to heaven. Visitors could easily be made up gods coming down to create them.

There is nothing sure. And assuming aliens just because they look like something that someone at rosewell claimed to see is nothing short of closed minded.

I'm quite open minded. I've looked at the evidence presented. One side claims a lot and shows no proof. The other claims a lot, and has physical proof. I can only side with the more tangible proof. Your aliens of the gaps is no different than the god of the gaps fallacy. And it is that reason that makes it a fallacy.

The only thing I've got faith in is that a son of a God died for my sins. I keep my faith short, simple, and to that point. Hell, I'd be willing to say th Nephilim of the old testament were aliens. But even what's written about them is short and small. They came, they saw, they had some fun and partied with the humans, and left. Then they came again, did the same thing, and left. They didn't build empires. They didn't care about man. They wanted sex and fun and left without so much as a note on the bed. Sounds like lame aliens to me. Though admittedly something more tangible than what you're telling me. Helmkat certainly provides the best speculation of any of us here. Aliens that chillax and party and let the bots do the dirty work. And so I'll respond to him, next, but it's stil to you too.


reply to post by Helmkat


I have to reject that frays or reptilians or anything humanoid really exists. But I do accept that they are like us in behavior. Look at a crow's brain. Crows are smarter than apes. In fact they're the 3rd smartest animals on earth behind dolphins and us. Yet their brains, and dolphins, have evolved to look almost like ours, despite the physical differences. Parts crows don't have, like the cerebral cortex, have been replaced with new parts. Thus, parallel evolution can create similarities, but only to a point. I'd imagine something Like Half Life's combine or other such things to be more likely. Hell, you;d probably like them. They represent the apex of the society you have developed.

Now just where do we see pictures of aliens like these:



But I have a tendency to also reject species becoming big maggots because they get dependent on technology. I think it's more likely that they would stop evolving all together. Once they have their ideal image, they can control their genes to be the same as they always have been.

Anyway, I have to agree. Robots do all we want in space. I'd be willing to say that we'll probably have warp capable probes years before we risk a person in one of them. The first manned warp ship will probably be a whole decade after the probes go and see it all.

The fact that all these so-called aliens always look human, and more so, that gods they say were aliens always look human, I think have something to say about the whole issue all together. And that is that we make things in our image. In fact, if you look, you'll see that aliens in the west always have Asian eyes and qualities, and aliens depicted in China always have Caucasian features. I think that's more than coincidence.

reply to post by pirep


Roaches aren't sentient. And if there's something more than sentient, I doubt they care enough to bother.


reply to post by mamelukkikala


And who were these people? Where? What did they use?

They're are numerous ways you could do what they did. A class I took gave some speculation as to how based on local traditions. Though there's hardly any evidence for them being used, they are certainly more likely than sound waves or modern technology. In fact, I'd say the presence of Hammers and Dolerite balls, a known way to cut the stones, is a good indicator that... they used Hammers and Dolerite balls. After all. Why would you have Hammers and Dolerite balls if you had better technology like what you're saying. Seems like a big fat wtf moment because last I checked, we don't bring arrows to a shooting war, nor do we bring bi planes to an international airport.


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also, sound waves wouldn't cut rock. They would obliterate it. You'd need some sort of sound laser. And if your advanced enough to make that, you wouldn't use that. You'd just use lasers or jackhammers. Of which, there's no evidence for any of the above.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Why would creatures with presumably warp drive technology and other cool stuff teach Humans how to cut rocks and build big stuff? Of all the stuff they have, why teach that?

Now I've heard worship. But the flaw remains. What is their need? Why do they need us? And how can you know they even understand worship or religion, that they even look like us or are anything like us?

edit on 8-1-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

Maybe they are testing us on how well we do as humans without them.Once we found out how to make nukes it has startled them and they do not know what to do about it.Maybe they are demonic and want us to get away from faith in God and start trusting them.I don't know what to think.