The Problem of Evil - Can It Be Solved?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Yes Thank you. I understand what you warning me of and believe me, I’m trying not to judge. Besides, I don’t think good can do more than just denounce evil anyway. Our imperfect nature doesn’t really allow us to do so either. We cannot really “fight” evil, just denounce it.
However, ultimate good is not some dead end boredom like the evil forces are trying to make you believe. It is infinite wonders that can only reach divinity. Now the only way for the good souls to make peace with this so-called balance(which is the only answer I have found to be at peace) is to think that whatever ultimate consciousness or God who’s behind allowing evil in the universe is just to show all that can exists but not to keep some existential balance but there is one side which extreme we already know the end. There is really no need for endless tests just to see how free will works. Evil and good will always remain what they are. I mean , If I’m planning to torture and kill an innocent life because my natural need and free will demands so, what kind of lessons is that supposed to teach me? And if an imperfect mind like you and I can think of a better world, we are already transcending the evil boundaries of this world or dimension, which means that better already exists when evil forces are trying to mystify that reality. From then, we could delve into reincarnation but even with reincarnation, the problem of evil still persists.

You probably know, this subject could go so deep, enough for now!
S+F for pertinent discussion so far!

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

NewAgeMan,

I am still following you but do you think man (as a whole) is mature enough to handle such responsibility??

I will take some serious maturity of the soul to handle such a way of thinking. And if not all are on the same page, so to say, would the whole story of "survival of the fittest" not come into play by means of the immature taking advantage of those who are??

In other words, is man ready to go without strict guidance? Because if not, wouldn't this effort create more "evil" than it would solve??

I believe your notion is the correct one but it is something you can not force or "hurry up",it has to happen gradually and in time. Until that time religion remains a construct very much necessary for guiding the masses.

Peace

Have you ever seen a film called "The Power of Nightmares" by a film maker names Curtis I think it is.

www.youtube.com...

Those guys, those thinkers, many of whom became the "Neocons" of this past decade, they began with two fundamental presuppositions, one that the human being must be regulated or he or she (that could be fun!) will simply succumb to their most base animal instincts (just kidding ladies, sorry) if not regulated (of course it's the men that have been the problem..), and that the organizing principal of society needs to be driven by an arrow of fear and insecurity, relative to the evil without, whereby our government shall be our protectors, saving us from all manner of horrible things, like that experienced directly by the whole world on 9/11 for example. This is sick thinking imho, and presumes the very worst about people, and actually generates the very thing they claim they are protecting us against (ie: over a million innocent deaths in Iraq for no reason, most certainly not the fear based reasons provided as justification). It's brutal and barbaric, and the religions haven't been any better ie: the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Even the whole war on terror, appears to represent an attempted rollback of an expanding Islam, by putting a black mark on it, and getting people RILED against their Arab brothers, most of whom are wonderful people (try starting up a conversation with your next taxi cab driver) although they are a little on the fundamentalist side I have to admit.

Anyway, people for the most part, and I mean a very very high percentage, want only to be valued, to be free, to have the dignity of a good days work, they want to be loved and to love, and to participate if possible in some worthwhile endeavour or pursuit, if only given the opportunity to make a contribution. They do not automatically default to pure animal nature, and run rampant, no they are civilized, and the organizing principal need not be INsecurity and FEAR (the very antithesis of faith), oh I could go on and on about this, using the most recent history to illustrate these points very clearly, but that's almost another thread unto itself.

That said, Civility has been defined by M. Scott Peck in a book called "Civility Rediscovered; A World Waiting to be Born" as: Consciously motivated organization behavior, that is ethical in submission to a higher power. But when these powers and principalities themselves have no higher power and believe themselves to operate above the law, then the very people charge with this responsibility to "lead" us and "guide" us and regulate us, even by so-called universal principals of truth and justice, and love, well, there again, the "fruits" of that are self evident. At the same time, some of the smartest among us, after graduating Yale and Harvard went off to WallStreet and ripped everyone off blind, for generations, and these are the so-called cream of the crop, the best and brightest..!

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, other than to say that we need a new organizing principal and dynamic, and the higher up people go in the economic pyramid of so-called power (there are many kinds of power), the MORE they ought to be required to be servant leaders, I mean like how many Yachts or extra homes do these guys need?!

It's obviously not the maurading hoards of animal people we need to worry about, but the barbarians in the gate, the high temple priests, the same money changes my old friend JC had such a problem with, and was he ever PEEVED at them!

So those temples of power, imho. have revealed themselves for the fruits they've produced and so people are disenfranchised, not by idealism, but by social Darwinism, perpetrated upon the masses by those with the gold who "make the rules".

I see two arrows of civility, like a hermetic principal of "as above, so below", one driving transformation by speaking truth to power, and overcoming through the power of love, relative to which no power or principality founded on corruption can stand the test of time, and two, one based on liberty and unfettered freedom for the lone individual, with encouragement, to be the best that he or she can be. Good people don't need the law, and the law is still there for protection, provided the police are not say in league with bikers gangs or higher criminal enterprises still, like elements of the shadow government's black ops ie: CIA drug dealing, etc.

It's not like there's nothing there regulating people, since Karmic Law is still operating, and simple cause and effect, where you do good, you sleep at night with a clean conscience, do bad, and reap those rewards, and that's a simple principal of the kind you'll find if you look at some of the ancient literature, from the Bhagavad Gita to the Torah.

And then there's the golden rule, which if you notice and have any awareness at all, makes you feel like CRAP when you violate it, and like I don't know like LOVE ITSELF when you funtion in alignment with it, expanding and growing in all directions, both the self, as well as our neighbor, uplifted by our Godliness, compassion or lovingkindness.

The Corporations they need to be regulated up the Ying Yang, but the people they do not, nope.

And since when is Christianity about morals of should and shouldn't anyway? Wait... think about it, it's about living under grace and love, where as St. Augustine stated boldly, we are liberated to love, and then do as we will. With love as the catalyst and the stimulant to creating loving action and mutuality, there is no impulse to destruction, theft and all the rest, that's absurd. Thus we must "grok" it and in the process of "grokking" it (eating and drinking of fully, completely integrating into our very being), become it, and be happy! Wasn't that the objective in the first place? Aren't those our intrinsic inalienable rights and freedoms? No one except perhaps the creator, or reality, spirit, whatever you want to call it, can even bestow these rights and freedoms, but if the very people charged with protecting those rights for us, on our behalf are violating them, them maybe the REAL BARBARIANS aren't the people who need "regulating", but the "PTB", and so we need to put THEM on notice and instill the fear of the people into THEM, by proclaiming our power, even as lone individual active causal agents and historical participants by neccessity, by the neccessity of free will in the space of unfettered liberty.

So no, we don't need "Religion" as a regulator, to tell us how to be good and bad, and who to judge as right or wrong..

The only real evil [eye] see is ourselves. Although a "higher authority" can influence our behavior and thus affect how we live our daily lives, we can only solve evil if we give ourselves a reason to live for only good. But since there are provocateurs, shills and disinformation agents, there will NEVER be peace! And so it is with EVIL, which continues to LIVE because we feed it and we nourish it; yet we fear it.

Originally posted by pikypiky
The only real evil is see is ourselves. Although a "higher authority" can influence our behavior and thus affect how we live our daily lives, we can only solve evil if we give ourselves a reason to live for only good. But since there are provocateurs, shills and disinformation agents, there will NEVER be peace! And so it is with EVIL, which continues to LIVE because we feed it and we nourish it; yet we fear it.

Good contribution, but I'd like to point out that the first part of your statement says own it, and you can't solve it by pointing AT it "out there", and then you turned and pointed and laid the blame at the feet of a certain amorphous group, but then you went back to taking on responsibility for it's resolution and asking that we do the same.

So that's pretty good and hey, there's an indignity there in the middle for sure that can't be ignored, so your "sandwitching" it like that perhaps is only appropriate.

If possible, I like for this to be the most challenging and thought provoking thread anyone's ever seen (i'm needy like, maybe that's MY problem!) here at ATS, but at the end of the day, the resolution will appear, if it hasn't already begun to do so, as the simplist thing in the world which might make you do a palmslap on your forehead, or me if needed, it doesn't matter who starts that mountain moving, only that it does move, and it will, you'll see, now that the wagons are circling so to speak, and hey this is our mission in this life, our JOB in so many ways, to contritbute, in whatever way however big or small, however fast or slow, to bring about the end of evil on this seemingly Godforesaken planet, but it was never forsaken, maybe even just the opposite if there is any merit to the Christian story that is.

We all hate evil, and trust me I hate it too, and have spent years of my life thinking about this, railing against it, fighting, getting mindblown over it, helping to start a whole movement (I was one of the early progeniturs of the 9/11 truth movement - don't care what your views are on that for this thread). I've driven myself stark raving MAD over this issue, and in the end, well, the resolution eventually appears, as it always does, if the willingness is there to go to work on something like this, and hey let's face it, we are ALL of us working on what I call The Great Work of all Ages, in one way or another, from one angle or perspective or another. Paradoxically, in the final analysis, we have no choice, especially when everything thought and deed resonates throughout eternity, even now through this eternally unfolding present moment, the whole thing projected up onto one universal screen, and people I don't need to tell you, we here on Planet Earth have been f'ing the whole thing up large, for hundres if not thousands of years. I mean like we already have ALL THE DATA we'll ever need to solve this thing once and for all time, and then the idea moves in the noosphere. What? Am I crazy enough to think that this here thread right here at ATS could serve as a mustard seed of mountain moving reason and faith? Yep. Damn right I am.

You see, there's nothing more powerful than an idea, whose time has come. And THIS is the only idea really or important wedge issue worth tackling in this lifetime, and once poeple start getting ahold of these type of solutions, then the idea moves and morphs and you start seeing it reflected everywhere, until you look around and notice that hey things seems to be getting better, clearer, more hopeful, energized, playful, creative, loving, etc etc. in another type of self reinforcing dynamic that we, the little guy are generating from within the noosphere, where these words I'm typing might be read by 10,000 people over the course of the next month alone, or more if ATS stats are to be believed.

We're powerful. Very very powerful, but only if we're operating or funtioning in congruent alignment with universal principals that are functional, and that idea about the neccessity of evil and the need for evil to balance the good as if God and the whole universe are divided into the duality of good and evil aint it, that dog don't hunt I'm afraid, please try again.

The Keeper Of The Flame

Written by Todd on January 4th, 2011

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/81c91fab1bc5.jpg[/atsimg]

All alone there go the souls

That died out here tonight

Goin’ down that dark tunnel

Searching for the light

They’ve gone astray – lost their way

Minds are closed up tight

In a daze, confused, and blind

Desperately needing a guide

When it seems all hope is lost

Oblivion their fate

You appear – you’re ever near

To lead them with your flame

Your spirit’s tender mercy

You were born to bear

A blazing soul manifest

A flame to show you care

Light so bright – sky’s afire

You’ll lead those souls tonight

Some resist – they cannot trust

No matter how they try

You just smile and point toward

What awaits them in your light

With open minds they will find

A healthy way of life

-----------------

Compliments of:

taccj9903
from
channelingmyself.com...

Jeeeeeeeeeeez, I can't keep up with all of you! But I will reply to that which I have read so far (leaving for work shortly).

Is evil necessary?

"Any effect is result of the cause"
Build Strong - RZA

You can say anything is possible at the beginning of man (presumably the beginning of conscious decision, you can always replace this with whatever your believe is on this subject ), but everything happened this way for a reason. Can we say that evil is necessary? Yes and No. But personally I would say it has become necessary to SOME people because of what they have learnt. There are so many different reasons but it is all based on their life lessons and experiences.

First can we measure the threshold where good stops and evil begins?
Yes and no again. When the sum of the karma generated by your action passes the 0 threshold into negative territory it coulld be considered evil. But do we make this calculation based on people's perceptions of the truth or THE TRUTH?


Back to my previous quote:
There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.

Indeed one poster said that evil is a philosophical quest. Wouldn't getting rid of evil cause evil in itself because it would be hurting another person? I believe it is a philosophical quest because it is not about getting rid of evil, it is about how we REACT to evil.

Next time I could post an example of how effective and righteous reaction to "evil" can be which can stop it from happening, gain the respect and friendship of those against you and so on.

Of course according to my calculations based on the threshold of evil, since perfection is IMPOSSIBLE then evil is POSSIBLE for everyone! THIS DOESNT MEAN EVERYONE IS EVIL! It means that the ACTION IS EVIL! AND IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO RESPOND APPROPRIATELY TO THIS ACTION! NOT BASED ON OUR PRIMAL CONDITIONINGS!

I would never blame a person for being evil. It is our primal nature that causes evil actions.

Once again I hit another wall. When I am off work I will try to catch up with the thread unless it gets bombarded again lol.

Here is the song I quoted earlier. This is one of maybe... 4 rap songs I listen to. But it is really deep, I recommend a listen!

reply to post by oswego


I laugh when i read things like this. Of course there can be good with out evil. We dont need evil to be able to understand what is good. There are many levels of being good that can sort out what is really great.

Being evil, bad, arrogant and all that are choices, just like being good on all levels is also a choice.

We dont need evil to understand what is good. Because before we make our evil choices, we know what these choices will do to others or our selves. You will feel it within you, that the choices you are about to make are wrong.

We can all be good if we want to: because it's a choice.

I know what your argument is going to be: How can we feel that we are making bad choices if we dont know good from bad.

Well think about it next time you have to make some choices. I bet you will get a sense of what is right and what is wrong. Because you have to make a choice on one or the other.

I think through time, the human race will become much more enlightened through evolution and spiritual growth and thus much less evil.
I don't think evil will ever be completely eradicated, as it is a part of human nature to pursue immoral acts for purposes of pleasure.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


There is a science to evil that very few know about.

Evil only exists because of that science. When that science resolves itself evil will be eliminated.

The only way to control evil now, before this secret science is through, is through control.
The more control over people the less evil will exist but unfortunately the missing evil will exist in the control that is being used on man.

Here is a parable on how God created evil:

A great scientist invented the perfect toy. Kids loved it and played with it happily.

The toy was made according to certain specifications. One was that is required to operate perfectly a very expensive battery. With the battery it worked perfectly.
Unfortunately many couldn’t afford the toy because the special battery was so expensive.

Some hackers came along and decided to try the toy with a standard battery that was inexpensive. Lo and behold they found out the toy worked with the cheap battery. Later though people who bought the toy with the cheap battery started to see the toy break down regularly, operate slower, make excessive noise, and finally would burn down eventually.

The hackers and those who bought the cheaper toy with the cheap battery didn’t mind they just felt: oh well this is better than nothing!

God created evil just like the original designer of the perfect toy with the expensive battery, created the toy that burned down . . . and oh btw many children who had the cheaper toy died in fires that were caused by the cheap toy.

reply to post by inforeal


Control is just another form of evil. Where only them who are in control have the right to be evil. And it wont change how people will act upon each other.

Being evil is a choice. Being good is a choice to.

So the creation was good, and presumably, still is good.

That's valid. We can even test that with the frame of the beauty of the world, and the universe from what we've only recently come to see of it.

The Hubble Ultra Deep Field image, taken September 24, 2003 - January 16, 2004




allow me to pause here, and weep.. (no words)

OMG



thread to continue...

in the interim, any thoughts are always welcome.

(a tear just hit my keyboard from that experience, oh my!)

reply to post by inforeal


Thanks for your reply, but I find the notion preposterous and absurd, and please don't take that the wrong way.

Evil will never be totally absolved.
Even a Utopia turns into a Dystopia.
So many Philosophers and writers have gone over the idea of a good versus a lesser good...and referring that as what we have in our world.
‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ We must then work harder and harder to solve evil and make lesser goods, the better good.

Originally posted by antmax21
Evil will never be totally absolved.
Even a Utopia turns into a Dystopia.
So many Philosophers and writers have gone over the idea of a good versus a lesser good...and referring that as what we have in our world.
‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ We must then work harder and harder to solve evil and make lesser goods, the better good.

I agree absolutely, from what I can tell, it's our job, our purpose, and our collective destiny, as an entire global society, to transcend our more base, unevolved aspects from our past historical junkyard, of things not fruitful, but which did not overcome, and which have nevertheless managed to lead up to this point, this moment in history, an emerging eternally unfolding present moment we now find ourselves entering into these days. From that perspective, we may then take a look at the whole thing once again as if for the first time, but under a new lens from a whole new perspective. That's a mission, to see, ever more clearly, reality as it really and truly is, or even as it ought to be, and instead of falling eternally victim to the fall within the gap, between those two worlds those two realms of possible - and to simply have the courage to walk across that bridge, or through that door, and not just for yourself, but on behalf of us all, even if only to satisfy our curiosity, that a better world might be possible, a kingdom of heaven or of eternal life, realized, in human history, once again, as it was by certain forerunners like Buddha and Jesus. It's the Great Work of all Ages. There is nothing in human experience and human endeavour, that could possibly be more important than this.

Oh and to get to leave evil BEHIND, having tread it under foot, on the other side of that bridge, back there, oh what a wonder that would be what a wonder it is, even now, since this invitation to participate, in an eternal co-creative enjoyment of life, of true life, with humor, and prior happiness, well then at that point we'd really be onto something, the problem, like I said - having already been solved!

And we'll go back there, and cover the ground behind us with a Sherlock Holmesian persona, magnifying glass in hand, and we'll find it, but me I would just like to rejoice with you, here and now, in the notion of it's utter nonsense, it's utter absurdity.

we'll find it, it's back there somewhere..

no worries as they say here in Lotus Land, British Columbia, Canada.

Cheers!


My point here being of course looking away from evil and towards the good, and simply ignoring it while rejoicing in the good rediscovered, not relative to or justified by evil in any way, with evil forgotten tread under foot.

To see clearly enough, having taken the beam out of our own eye, how to remove the splinter from our brother's eye.

To be the end of evil in the world, can only mean to be it's antithesis, which for the most part stands alone.

"Be ye perfect therefore, even as your father in heaven is perfect (perfectly loving, all including and embracing)."

Talk about fun and enjoyment! And the human is given by the amount of material all of our sorrows and our sufferings gave us, when viewed from the perspective of absolute sanity, have already gone in sane (into sanity), and of course then at that point we must remain forever vigelent in the form of having the compassion to accept that it still remains a possibility, and as another poster said, so long as the choice remains to choose evil, then evil will remains, as the good continue to do good, and the evil, evil, but by that point the war will have already been won, starting in our own hearts and minds, not pointing because point at, or try to identify the evil "out there", there's alway some damn fool on the other end of our finger!

Evil is a sickness, and a disorder, born of rebellion against the spirit of truth and life and love, and logos or reason. Nothing but the good is reasonable, is my point here and central thesis, where evil is dissolved as if in thin air, in the realization that being already fruitless and of no value, is already discarded by real reality, as we move historically, not FROM the past, but INTO the future through the eternally unfolding and harvesting, present moment reality, of the whole thing, the whole universe, since this is a universal issue, at core.

They got this everywhere else I'm sure, so why can't we "get it" it here on Earth, there's no reaon why not, and every reason to.

It's only resonable, it's ending, through us and our own newfound perspective.

Our work then is to let it go, and stop pointing, and turn away and turn our attention only on the good and hey while we're at it we just might have a few laughs and a good time, for however long we are here, not here, here and there and everywhere always now...!

The end of evil, is the end of time and historry as we know it. And that's ok.

If it doesn't make sense, by God let us discard it, right?!

It's an absurdity.

A nothing.

To God always and forever a thing of the past.

This is what "pick up your cross and follow me" means and signifies. It means to carry however much sorrow is needed to generate sufficient compassion to altogether swallow it up, but not without some good spiritual food, some wine, laughter, and celebration!

We all must be the end of evil.

And in the final analysis, there is nothing wrong at all, with that!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
So the creation was good, and presumably, still is good.

That's valid. We can even test that with the frame of the beauty of the world, and the universe from what we've only recently come to see of it.

The Hubble Ultra Deep Field image, taken September 24, 2003 - January 16, 2004

allow me to pause here, and weep.. (no words)

OMG



thread to continue...

in the interim, any thoughts are always welcome.

(a tear just hit my keyboard from that experience, oh my!)

------------------------------
Thank you for sharing that lovely video. It fills me with awe.
This is a wonderful thread. I'm not much of a talker, so I'll keep my thoughts short 'n sweet. Imo, change must come from the grass roots up. We must be the change we wish to see. We must join hearts and hands and help one another to be the people we always knew we could be...
I don't know how to embed, but here's a few videos that touch me deeply:

Universe! (Angelic Voices - B-Tribe)
www.youtube.com...

Reiki healing: (very relaxing)
www.youtube.com...

without evil there is no good. with out order nothing exists. without chaos nothing evolves. you cant have one without the other. yin and yang

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

The Problem of Evil
by Peter Kreeft

The problem of evil is the most serious problem in the world. It is also the one serious objection to the existence of God. No sane person wants hell to exist.

Peter Kreeft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are four parts to the solution to the problem of evil . First, evil is not a thing, an entity, a being. All beings are either the Creator or creatures created by the Creator. But every thing God created is good, according to Genesis. We naturally tend to picture evil as a thing—a black cloud, or a dangerous storm, or a grimacing face, or dirt. But these pictures mislead us. If God is the Creator of all things and evil is a thing, then God is the Creator of evil, and he is to blame for its existence. No, evil is not a thing but a wrong choice, or the damage done by a wrong choice. Evil is no more a positive thing than blindness is. But it is just as real. It is not a thing, but it is not an illusion..

For the sake of argument: If everything God created is good, then it must be human perception and judgement that makes it evil wouldn't it? Nothing is evil but thinking makes it so...

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Ok maybe I laid that on too heavy or something, as if it's "our" problem to solve, if so forgive me, and no I am not evil, not by any stretch of the imagination, heck ealier today I almost broke into tears talking to a street guy who was born missing a hand, and I asked him how he felt about it, if he was bitter or spiteful over it at all, and he looked at me with the kindest face and eyes I've ever seen, and said to me "they teased me a lot when I was a child over it" and I said yeah, children are cruel sometimes to one another, and they he perked up, happy and said, "yeah, but you know, I realize now of course that they didn't know what they were doing" and I almost lost it right there, and gave him THREE instead of two dollars, when he asked me, as if as a last ditch effort, begged me for a nickel, and I was like # bro, I can do better than THAT! (in truth I'm kind of broke right now, and tnat's what I had in my pocket, or I would have given him more, for those that might be thinking to themselves "that cheapskate, 3 bucks doesn't get ya anywhere these days!"

If he used those three dollars for "evil" purposes, did you give everything you had for an evil cause? Our egoic minds are too small and ignorant to know the true difference between good and evil because in some ways they are not different things. Sometimes even when we are trying to do good, we do evil. Intention may be the only separation between good and evil, but is limited knowledge by two things: Only the one doing it knows what their true intentions were, and only at the moment the intention came about was the intention good or evil.

I had this same kind of thought the other day when my bonsai was getting eaten by little red spiders. I asked myself, do I let the plant get eaten by the spiders? or do I kill the spiders so that the plant can live? No matter which option I chose, there will be a perceived evil doer. If I let the spiders kill the plant, both the plant and myself could perceive the spiders as the evil doer or if I kill the spiders than I could be perceived as the evil doer. Also, no matter what action (or inaction) there will be suffering: either to the plant or to the spiders. Which is the non-evil and non-suffering option? Are the concepts of good and evil just another illusion?

The question of suffering seems to go back to the essential fundamental purpose, which is ultimately (imo) purposeless or empty. There is no ultimate divine purpose, the ego creates purpose. I believe that we must accept the "will to meaning" is also just an illusion. The will to do the right thing or the wrong thing is just another illusion. No matter which option we choose we are just playing the ego's mind drama. Standing on this world and going East long enough will produce the same results as going West long enough. It is not until you 'leave this world" that you can truly go any direction without ending up right back where you were.

Buddha said: All of life is suffering. Some of us (including myself) do not fully realize this yet. For myself, my goal (with my limited egoic mind) is to not intentionally create more suffering, help those and have empathy and compassion for those that are suffering, and move forward into accepting that all of life is suffering.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Without evil there is no good.

Without black there is no white.

Without up there is no down.

Without in there is no out.

Without nothing there can not be something.

Evil is something that must exist for their to be good. It is how life is. If everything were beautiful, how would we know?