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Religion causes otherwise moral people to do and say immoral things.

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posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 05:17 PM
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oh you want to see something really freaky? fast forward this video to 1:49 he's about to regale you with his findings from an ancient text, called the book of enoch, in which he has discovered the description of a super massive black hole in an active galaxy (active galaxy being one in which the black hole is feeding and shooting out an ascending and descending pillar from the black hole).



NOW, watch this (it's long but worth it!)


Google Video Link




posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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here's the relevant quote from enoch, mentioned in the first video in my prior post

"And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth (my edit: descending and ascending columns of fire in an active galaxy). And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place (my edit: the black hole). I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven."

[...]

"And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. "


THAT is an astoundingly good description for something we just recently discovered. lol i guess we didn't just recently discover it, as enoch apparently saw it, like 5000 years ago lol



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Ok, i've watched your first video. Let me tell you this not the first time the Book of Enoch has entertained my curiousity and interests. So thanks for the vid


You may think i'm a blind sceptic, but i am even willing to entertain stories of giants and aliens as a possibility , and this account in the video may well describe what is at the centre of our gallaxy, maybe even relating to the aliens or "angels" that are mentioned in the book of enoch, their vast knowledge of space travel for exaqmple. But does this stand in favour of argument for "GOD's" existence? Do the aliens have knowledge of the "GOD's" existence because they can accurately describe what's at the centre of a gallaxy?

Besides, the descriptions seem to be somewhat primitive, there is no offer of math or theory the way modern science approaches these "descriptions"

I'm going to watch other video now, enjoying discussion.

A&A



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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I also just wanted to state that with my interest in questioning, science and philosophy i have lost complete faith in a "GOD", at least a "caring" intelligent "God"

For the Andromeda gallaxy is set on a collision cause with our own, ultimately causing destruction and chaos. I ask - what kind of a God would allow this to happen and destroy all life. I don't think this God deserves to be worshipped, it seems with all the floods, extinction of species, supernovas, gallaxy collisions that this "GOD" is an apocolyptic God, and tyranous God, indifferent, void of emotion.



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


the andromeda galaxy colliding with the milky way, is mentioned in revelation as a future event, in which jesus is already back on the planet. as a result, the solution to avoid an apocalypse of that magnitude is already available . it says new heaven, new earth, so sounds like a different galaxy (heaven in the example being a word for galaxy).

most of what you read in revelation and the end of world, is not literally the end of the world. i will admit, however, that the current translation of the old testament does have some less than friendly moments, (at least on first glimpse)



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by undo
 



the andromeda galaxy colliding with the milky way, is mentioned in revelation as a future event, in which jesus is already back on the planet. as a result, the solution to avoid an apocalypse of that magnitude is already available . it says new heaven, new earth, so sounds like a different galaxy (heaven in the example being a word for galaxy).


Ok, i could grant the possibility that ancient man (or alien) had superior knowledge to what we have today. But does this mean "GOD" exists? Because the human race had knowledge of gallaxies etc.

You say "heaven" means "Gallaxy" but these seem to me at first glance to be somewhat over-interpretted passages. Also, there seems to be no other evidence of our vast knowledge of the universe elsewhere, and again, i believe these passages to be somewhat misinterpretted, maybe i'm wrong, but it still doesn't stand in favour of the existence of a supernatural intelligent creator.
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posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


i'll give ya a hint: the super massive black hole created the galaxy. or rather, the super massive black holes, created the galaxies. black holes/wormholes were personified or rather deified in ancient texts. as a result, anything that came out of a wormhole, for example, was considered a deity (see my signature). considering the description of the singularity, well, that's not exactly a stretch. if you add the example in the double slit experiment, quantum realities, you end up with a further explanation of what all this may mean.

places in the biblical text suggest there's another dimension co-existing with ours, at this very moment, even here on earth. perhaps this is accessible via a wormhole, i dunno. but there seems to be something there..



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


There definetly seems to be (or could be) a larger reality, there's obviously something we're not understanding about the universe, maybe we really are part of a multiverse.

But a problem i often have with 1 God, is the argument from causation; what created God? What reality does God exist in? What reality does it's creator exist in? An so it goes on and on into a INFINITE regression.

What interests me is the notion of infinity;

The mandelbrot set;



Also

The fibonacci sequence:



I really don't know what you are hinting at btw
edit on 7/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


good question. mormons would tell ya, god is the son of a god who was the son of a god who was the son of a god, ad infinitum. no beginning. christians would tell ya the same thing in a slightly different way: god has no beginning. eternity is a hard concept to grasp since 3dimensional reality is temporary and that's the only reality we are personally aware of or remember, as a general rule. i read one buddhist saying on the subject, that seems relevant: all time happens at once, like an one second symphony, but is played out incrementally for viewing. (



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


If God is infinity itself, how do you know inifinity has a desire to be worshipped? or that this GOd has desires, how can you possibly attempt to rationalise morality out of an abstract concept of infinity?

Besides, the morality in the old testament was somewhat questionable, what with genocide and slavery. And even asks a man to kill his own son. Part 2, actually kills is own son.

I'm asking you as a thinking person; how can this be believed?

How can man proclaim to have knowledge of God, man created language itself as he became a part of this reality, there was no obvious "word of God" around, there never has been, the bible doesn't negate this fact.

What do you think? I'm asking you honestly and (i think) intelligently - I wouldn't be here if i didn't care about sharing my opinion with others.

Peace

A&A
edit on 7/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


i prefer to think of the infinity thing as being the permanent state of spiritual beings. you are a spiritual being, so you have a permanent state, and as a result, an infinite state. as far as the old testament goes, you don't want me to go there. take my word for it.

edit on 7-1-2011 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by undo
 

double post like a fool again, sorry mods!
edit on 7/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


I've read it, and to be honest, i enjoyed it as i enjoy a violent horror novel.
(much prefer a sci-fi tho!)

With these infinite and spiritual concepts in mind, this still does not answer my question, How do you know "GOD" really IS infinity itself, and how do you claim to know this entities "DESIRES"?

I'm honestly loving the rapport here, i'm often interpretting as being smug or arrogant. Quite the opposite, i'm willing to hear someone else's side of the coin.

But i want to ask someone as intelligent and open-minded as yourself, how have you come to assert this belief in the supernatural? I'm not demeaning your intelligence, i honestly just want to know the key reasons why.
edit on 7/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2011 @ 11:21 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


sorry for delay, i fell asleep (had been up since yesterday). all i can tell ya is, i had an experience that, to this day continues. i think it all hinges on what you go away with after reading/meditating on the texts and your intentions while doing so.

i have this theory that our dna is holographic and quantum-ly entangled, and a portion of it records our entire lives. the other you that it's quantum-ly entangled with is your spirit body. another way to explain it might be: your physical body is an encounter suit, thru which your spirit body is attaining other dimensional experiences.

p.s. it could be that "observing" 3dimensional reality, with 3dimensional gear (our eyes or other physical devices), alters space-time, and that our spirit bodies don't have this effect on space-time because they aren't directly interacting with 3dimensional space. or 3dimensional space-time doesn't effect the spirit body because its observations don't collapse the wave function. the double slit video i posted earlier, describes that before the wave function collapses, everything is in super position with everything else. which suggests that the spirit body would have a very interesting set of options available to it
edit on 8-1-2011 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by undo
 

No problem, i was sleepy too

Maybe it is just a holographic experience, maybe it's a matrix, but would refrain from assuming a creator to explain complexity.

I know you say our body is a spiritual encounter, well what about other animals? Do they have a spirit, in your opinion? Can you even define spirit with much meaning?

The way i see, humans brains have evolved different, we have become aware, we are pattern seeking mammals, thats why we developed the tool of language and began to build a civilisation. Of course lik you said, our observation could have an effect on reality, but it seems the opposite; the 3d world has an effect on our very evolution, the light, the environment, the chance that we don't get predated.

I'm sorry but i have to abcond from spirit/holographic talk, but if you have any theories/maths i'll be happy to take a look.

I'm interested in Nassim Haramein's work, he's looking to find a grand unified field theory - "The theory of everything" At the moment quantam mechanics and relativity do not marry, and black holes apparently can't be explained by these 2 theories. A unified field theory would explain everything, even conscioussness, black holes and life itself.

Maybe your right about our obersvation having a large effect on reality, but if a large comet was heading towards earth, no observation or non-observation is going to prevent the destruction, unless we act on it.
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edit on 8/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 07:00 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


correct. cause and effect are still in play. this is probably a law of temporal universes (provided multiple dimensions exist as alternatives of one another (yet another example of super position?), like the references in enoch to the stars trapped in the gravity well of the super massive black hole, were laws acting on space-time (they were tardy).

i've considered pretty much everything you're saying, but my personal experiences color how those considerations are translated in my head. here's an example:

animals and machines share alot in common with each other that they don't necessarily share in common with human beings. in particular is the programming (instinct), which a human can not only recognize but choose not to react/respond/act upon. i don't know if that means animals have spirits or not, but i do know how it separates us to varying degrees from both machines and animals.



posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 07:07 AM
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double post, firefox buggin out!
edit on 8/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 07:07 AM
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reply to post by undo
 


But as AI develops, they may have the intelligence of a human, perhaps you might even grant the machine a "spirit" or a "soul" of it's own.

Have you seen the Animatrix, explaining the precursor to the machines taking over earth, Although this is sci-fi it's not so far from the truth

Perhaps this will explain what i mean -

Evolution of Computer Power

There does seem to be mathematical beauty to the human brain, and machines have a mathematical beauty to them. Just because we created machines, doesn't inherently mean a creator has created us, we don't understand enough about the origins of reality.

I mentioned concepts of mathematical infinity earlier (the mandelbrot set, fibonnacci sequence/spiral)

Even with this in mind, i still can't accept the theory of a creator (YET) If evidence emerges to that degree, i will have to reconsider my Agnosticism/Atheism.



You might enjoy this one
What do you think?
edit on 8/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


i understand what you mean but that's not exactly what i was saying. a human body can be temporarily programmed or cloned, like a machine. but the spirit cannot because it isn't a temporal construct. it is using the temporal construct known as the human body, to access and experience 3d reality.. it's functioning outside the bounds of 3dimensional space-time. animals might be doing the same, but i don't have evidence of that.

the other issue involved here, is the way personal choice may effect multiple dimensional reality. if everything is super positioned in multiple dimensions, each choice we make may modify our timeline, including what we ate vs. what we didn't eat, and so on. in this way, we alter reality locally, and, if you accept the multiverse concept, it suggests that the incoming meteor may no longer be a reality for you in a changed timeline, thus being an example of directed "Faith" if you will or just random chance as a result of some other action you took.



posted on Jan, 8 2011 @ 07:50 AM
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reply to post by undo
 


I'm still not sure i'm grasping an understanding of what you talk about.

With the multiverse concept, i can understand there being different time lines based on the different human/animal actions, as we have free will. The only way i can forsee the comet not plummetting into earth is if on a different time lines the humans have developed a method to deter it.

What makes you think that the commet wil not be there in a different "verse" ? I accept the possibility of a multiverse/dimension theory whereby each act of free will inherently changes something, but does the universe have free will itself? How do you know?

Arn't you over-interepetting our very own consciousness with God, we have evolved differently from animals, our brain works "differently" but perhaps is not more "superior" We only believe it to be "superior" - There may be extra-terrestrial civilisations with brains wired much differently to our own, but intelligent nonetheless.

What do you think about this man's thoughts?


edit on 8/1/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)




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