How to "Deny Ignorance" when it is ATS promoting the ignorance?

reply to post by adjensen


There are several factors which play into what ends up on the main page as a top thread and what doesn't. It is true that, often, very good threads go almost universally unnoticed while absurd threads can reach 100 pages or more. But this is not necessarily a bad thing. Even the less than desirable OP's can lead to very healthy, instructive, and informative posts later on in the thread. Just seeing an empty OP does not mean that one is going to encounter a thread which is bereft of value.

This is an alternative site. We do cover almost all topics here. And, well, one mans "trash" thread is another mans "goldmine". It really is all in how you look at it, and what you are looking for.

Moreover, even if you stay in the forums which suit your own tastes and beliefs, you are going to encounter philosophies and opinions which are contrary to your own. You will find people who you think are absolutely misinformed and lost. Fun fact though... Those people probably think of you, and your opinions, in the same light. Perspective is everything on a forum such as ATS. Diversity is what drives the engine that keeps this site popular, profitable, and able to grow.

In short, simply by defining some posts as "ignorant" you've kind of lost sight of what ATS is and is meant to be. A place where the diverse and fringe ideas can flourish and be discussed by people from all sides of the fence. Many (even most) other forums lack this blessing. It's easy to find conservative forums where the party line is towed. It's easy to find UFO forums where non-believers are quickly banished. It's easy to find news forums where unpopular topics or ideas are quickly silenced.

But, here, everyone who wishes to contribute, no matter how skilled, unskilled, mainstream, fringe, right, left, or otherwise aligned or oriented, can do so. This creates a wonderful arena where all ideas are welcome and true debate and conversation can occur.

So, sure, there will be things you don't agree with or find an interest in which make the front page. But don't write them off so quickly. There might actually be something there - even if it's just a few minutes of enjoyment.

~Heff

Though I understand everyone's point in this thread, there is a place that people can go to have a less railroaded thread, and that's RATS. You have enough points to go there, and if particular threads that you would like to see less mainstream, you can post there.

I know that is has less traffic, but for those that can go there it shows up in their recent threads. I for one have tried to contribute there, and even if its not seen as much, I know that those that contribute, pretty much know how ATS works. I would prefer less views, as opposed to views that would distract from my threads.

Just a thought.

Peace, NRE.

Maybe Im old and have been exposed to too much flouride over the yrs, but I really enjoy ATS.. the good the bad and the ugly... and the outrageous. I dont even mind bad spelling, horrible grammar or any of that petty stuff.

I lurked here for a very long time before ever signing up and have been involved in other forums similar to this one. Ive learned to appreciate the fearmongerers and uneducated posters.. sometimes they love it, but many times they are sincere and dont deserve to be attacked for being uninformed or simple. You can offer your theory or link laden fact based post, but its up to the individual to accept or deny it. Its not ATS.. it is because we have a very wide variety of people here and no one person's theory is any more favored than another's. You should thing the administration and mods that you are afforded this on either end of the spectrum as most boards maintain the status quo and disallow this free form information and sharing that we have here. I can think of one in particular.

In any case, even with the posts you disagree with, and that I disagree with, it does offer a different perspective and thats a great thing. If you live in a bubble with only your chosen beliefs and reality, I feel you just arent really experiencing much of life. If a person comes here and sees BS on the front page with stars and flags and accepts it outright with no thought of their own.. I guess they found what they were looking for. I have a little more faith in humans and their capability of wading through BS or illogical things. Its up to each one individually what they will accept and shouldnt be a matter of being babysat by mods .. thats a little too thought police-ish to really fit with the whole vibe of ATS in the first place.

reply to post by adjensen


Denying Ignorance isn't about castigating, or silencing voices, or accusing people of "promoting the ignorance"

It is about patience, intelligence and education. It is about the ability to help people learn about their mistakes and possibly misguided views.

Its about discussion.

So heaven forbid that a discussion thread on a subject, on a discussion forum, makes the front page eh?

ATS members come from all different backgrounds, from all over the world. They have different beliefs and perceptions of how things work, and why they happen. Its what makes the site so unique.

ATS doesn't "promote ignorance", ATS is a conduit that promotes discussion

reply to post by adjensen

...or something a bit more involved, like the ability of a moderator to put something above the OP that says something like "Significant questions as to the accuracy of the claims in this post have been raised" if such evidence is posted.

Might help.

But would it be to the benefit of the owners of The Above Networks LLC?

You don't really think this site exists for the purpose of sifting truth from falsehood, surely? It exists to make money from online advertising. The amount it can afford to charge for such advertising depends principally on the volume of site traffic. And site traffic statistics on ATS are driven by controversy, superstition, appealing misinformation and mindboggling nonsense. The number of people who really want to know the truth about anything is vanishingly small, my friend. What most people really want is to have their prejudices affirmed.

It's always the clodfests that are the longest threads--have you checked out that ridiculous one about a historical conspiracy as old as Western civilization? It's called All Roads Lead to Rome. Read it for a laugh. That's the kind of thing this site exists to facilitate.

Adjensen I empathise deeply with the drive of what you are saying. In general terms this is a site for discussion of alternative issues, but for some reason some thoroughly flawed people equate alternative thinking with plain old being wrong. I personaly believe that you can have an open debate about alternative issues (Ufos and aliens for example, something I believe in) without sacrificing scientific accuracy (declaring you have met seventy aliens, are the child of one alien and one woman, and offering no DNA evidence for such a thing for example) as part of the debate.
Some would have you think , that to be a member here, and contribute to the site in any meaningful way, means you have to have an open mind, and they are absolutely right. However, there is a difference between having an open mind, and allowing yourself to become one of the possibly lobotomised charlatans who care more for thier own self opinion and right to talk from thier ringpieces , than they do about the truth. Denying ignorance means fighting it where you find it. It means lighting the darkness, tearing down the tapestry of shadows that the ignorant and the willfully deceptive wish to hang over every facet of existance, and it means never backing down when the weight of evidence ( I mean EVIDENCE not assumption) is with you. More than all that, for persons who do have some knowledge, it means working harder than hard to show people why the science works, why physical evidence is always better in terms of documentation than some vision quest , and why the sun cannot possibly be Satan disguised as a sunflower.
In short Adjensen, when the liars, and the unaware shout you down, bury your posts, and clutter up your understanding with thier total lack of comprehension of reality, just take some pleasure in the fact that you offered the information, and that those who have willfuly ignored it are soon going to be run over while jaywalking, such is thier inability to realise basic truths.

reply to post by neformore


That sounds disturbingly like spin to me. You ever run for public office? Im not being funny here neformore, I respect you and all, ATS needs to figure out if its denying ignorance, or allowing it on the basis that to fight it properly means denying some thier right to free speech. Either way, denying the supremacy of science in its ability to explain what are in fact simple things, is ignorant. Supporting people who with no basis disagree with that, is promotion of ignorance. Denial of that statement I just made is EVIDENCE of ignorance. So tell me , do you take sugar with your ignorance? Im just wondering, because it seems to me that if the thrust of what those who are speaking out against Adjensen here are saying, is supported by ATS then ATS must, for fear of false advertising change its motto .
You cannot deny ignorance if you deny science. Science is the only tool greater than debate in denying ignorance.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Bicent76

 

So, that's one vote for encouraging stupidity? The wisdom of your six months of ATS membership beyond mine is that the dumber everyone else is, the smarter you appear to be?

Sorry, my point, and the point of this thread, is that an attitude such as yours damages ATS, as much as it impacts the collective intelligence of the site's participants. In a forum that aspires to deny ignorance, your embracement of it cannot be seen as anything but a deficiency, and whether your motivation is disinformation or self gratification, it doesn't really matter.

Knowledge is power. Encouraging idiocy for your own benefit is self serving, at best.

good luck on your saga, to understand the word ignorance.


why am I not suprised you missed the point of my reply?

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by neformore

 

That sounds disturbingly like spin to me. You ever run for public office?

Nope, my day job prevents me from doing that. When I retire, or if I am made redundant, I might consider it.

Im not being funny here neformore, I respect you and all, ATS needs to figure out if its denying ignorance, or allowing it on the basis that to fight it properly means denying some thier right to free speech.

You can't deny ignorance if you ignorantly dismiss someones right to free speech.

Either way, denying the supremacy of science in its ability to explain what are in fact simple things, is ignorant. Supporting people who with no basis disagree with that, is promotion of ignorance.

No one has suggested that science be denied. What I suggested was that education overcomes ignorance.
Outright dismissal of someones post, instead of trying to educate them if they are misguided is ignorance.

Denial of that statement I just made is EVIDENCE of ignorance. So tell me , do you take sugar with your ignorance? Im just wondering, because it seems to me that if the thrust of what those who are speaking out against Adjensen here are saying, is supported by ATS then ATS must, for fear of false advertising change its motto .
You cannot deny ignorance if you deny science. Science is the only tool greater than debate in denying ignorance.

See above. Its perfectly easy to take the high ground here, but have you - or did Adjensen - explain to the author of that thread what science says, link to examples of how science has proved what it claims, and educate the poster contrary to their beliefs - or did you just dismiss the post as junk?

The former is denying ignorance. The latter simply promotes it.

You sound a little too upset about this. "Let and Let Live"
Here's what I do, sometimes when certain people are dominating a thread, and I completely disagree with what they're saying, or can't get a word in, I leave.
"Arguing on the internet is like..."
I'm not going to finish the quote, Google it if you're not sure what im saying... but you get my drift.

It's understandable it can be frustrating, but I disagree that ATS promotes ignorance. More likely certain people on ATS may be ignorant, but ATS is an entity within itself, and doesn't discriminate against any particular posting as far as I know, unless the post violates a TOS.

Maybe you can make a thread to debunker the thread, which you disagree with?

reply to post by Astyanax


I think you are mistaken. ATS is a discussion conduit.

It is not down to the board staff to prove anything. It is for the members to debate/discuss - it is "user generated content".

The board staff are here to ensure the conduit stays open, and the subjects remain civil.

Occasionally we will put our own theories/opinions out in the public arena for discussion, but we are not here to make rulings on any particular subject matter at all - with the exception of proven/admitted hoaxes and those subjects expressly prohibited by the site terms and conditions.

Originally posted by neformore
See above. Its perfectly easy to take the high ground here, but have you - or did Adjensen - explain to the author of that thread what science says, link to examples of how science has proved what it claims, and educate the poster contrary to their beliefs - or did you just dismiss the post as junk?

The former is denying ignorance. The latter simply promotes it.

Of course I did, and that's the point of the whole thread. I am not, in any way, opposed to people saying what they want, regardless of how right or wrong it might be. What I am saying is that, when a post is clearly predicated on beliefs that are verifiably contradictory to facts (but it's not a "hoax",) it would be helpful if the truth carried more weight than the fallacy.

If you read the thread (which is still on the front page, as of this writing,) you would see that the claims of the author were refuted within the first couple of pages, and that I and others provided an explanation of the facts being ignored, along with links to information about it. That is the education piece that you refer to, but the truth is buried in 20+ pages of sensationalist claims and "ra ra" posts, so the casual reader, who sees all the stars and flags as some sort of testimony of truth, is far more likely to come away with a false belief.

reply to post by adjensen


I think the result of this thread is that there is no system in place to uphold the motto "Deny Ignorance".

The community is interested in hearing all points of view, the more popular they are, the more likely to appear on the front page, unfortunately, truthiness has nothing to do with it.

Fundamentally, its a popularity contest.

Lets face it, the site is really about promoting discussion about taboo topics. Of course, this is not a bad thing, however as you can see, most enthusiasts and mods try to link the motto with this philosophy which inevitably leads to argument.

I think there is a disparity between ATS core values and the motto, perhaps the motto should be 'promote enlightenment'?

reply to post by neformore


Personaly I always try to provide information on a subject either in the form of a link or by explaining a point carefuly and in precise terms to avoid confusion, dependant on the situation. If a point, or indeed an entire thread seems to be based on a falsehood or a lack of understanding then it is paramount that information be provided which enlightens those who have been mislead, or stumbled down an incorrect path by chance. However, all to often posters, particularly those who suggest that they are conduits for alien presences and christ knows how many other false prophets, stick up thier noses at "mere" science.
This ignorance is supported by number of interested posters, and by the fact that when cold hard logic and science are applied (in thier various forms, and dependant of course upon the situation) people get out the battle axes, and start attacking the voices of reason in thier midst, and yet it is not those ignorant savages who get set upon by moderate or undecided persons, but the persons speaking logical truth, and that cannot be tolerated if ignorance is to be denied and defeated in the long term.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
This ignorance is supported by number of interested posters, and by the fact that when cold hard logic and science are applied (in thier various forms, and dependant of course upon the situation) people get out the battle axes, and start attacking the voices of reason in thier midst, and yet it is not those ignorant savages who get set upon by moderate or undecided persons, but the persons speaking logical truth, and that cannot be tolerated if ignorance is to be denied and defeated in the long term.

So, somewhat like Hypatia.

Indeed.

But, to be honest, I'm not sure why anyone would think it would/should be any different given the scope of the forum.

reply to post by searching4truth


Now that you say this, I do see it. I'm fairly new to this site and unfortunatly got suckered into those non sence posts. I'll be watching out for those next time, thanks. How do you start new threads anyway?

Saw a post that I think pretty much sums it up so it would seem prudent to post it here...

From...
Shift of Earth's Magnetic North Pole Impacts Tampa Airport,
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This Post...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by TheBirdisDone
reply to post by Chadwickus

 

We are just sort of throwing ideas around here, about pole shifts and runway redesignation and wondering is there more to it - like that post it note brain storming session stuff they suggest in business improvement training for manager types. Nobody is putting on purple running suits and lacing up the nikes. Why be mean?
The FACT is, FACT, FACT, FACT, FACT . . . is that the Powers to Be, however you want to frame it DO NOT tell us what is going on about a lot of stuff . . . so people start to suspect that they are not telling us even MORE stuff. Of course you always suspect they don't tell you everything anyway. Hasn't this been going on since, well - the Tuskegee experiment as one example?

So lets agree here, maybe not on what is happening but on 3 things:
1. They don't tell us everything, or they do and they are wrong - like the earth is flat and ulcers are caused by stress. Later there are advancements and they understand and they usually don't deliver the apology letter in the mail to those that questioned the original story - actually they used to burn people at the stake for not agreeing with the current model of belief. This is HISTORY.

2. Stuff is dying we might want to get a little concerned about like bee's, which can effect pollenation, which can affect food supply. Even if it is a virus, or a mutation, or from genetically engineered corn, or too many cell phone towers. OR POLE SHIFTY WOBBLY THINGS, we might want to figure out WHY. This is where it can turn to BS if studies are corrupt or are paid for by those that have a vested, vested interest in keeping it hushed up.

3. Chicken little? This site is harmless really, you can choose to go to other threads on here - I stay out of whole topic areas because I just don't want to get involved. If you want to really talk about chicken little and fear mongering lets talk about guys, like um . . . Glen Beck a guy who reaches millions of people everyday with fear mongering, or lets go to the airport and watch TSA in action. This is just one thread on a CONSPIRACY WEBSITE. Don't you get it? This site is like the twilight zone, no need to personally get all riled up. Just say, well I disagree with you weirdo's and go pick another thread. If you find it uncomfortable that others won't agree with you - leave - the thread maybe it just isn't for you. What I find amusing is the constant appeal to experts back and forth. The best thing to come out of all this is WE JUST DON'T KNOW, maybe THEY just don't know either or maybe THEY don't want to tell us.

Bee's, Bats, Fish, Sea mammals, Birds. Are dying off.
Ok maybe fish kills happen. Bee's, Bats, Sea mammals, and Birds . . . all navigate. Bats and sea mammals I understand - sonar, and some of the big beaching incidents of whales and such are the result of military exercises, so maybe some expand on that and think HAARP. It's understandable.

This die off, this recent die off - maybe there is something to the fact we all hear more about it from all around the world because of instant access. But they did not die from fireworks. So maybe it is THEY that should shut up, maybe by telling us obvious BS - THEY - cause the fear. This thread or the countless others on this site haven't to my knowledge started the human lemming run yet . . . yet . . . although it is going to be interesting till 12-21-2012 for obvious reasons. People, even skeptical people are watching - and when THEY tell us garbage like fireworks caused this when it is obvious we would see MASS carnage after every 4th of July, it just does not help at all.

Yup pretty much sums it up... and I am willing to bet that thread caused THIS one

reply to post by zorgon



lol Zorgon

Considering the nature of their post

Their ID is < TheBirdisDone >

And since when did we carry out witch hunts on ATS?

Simple answer is we don't.

If you think a thread is nonsense, leave it alone. No one forces anyone to read things. Simple as that.

Singling posts out for mudslinging is not the ATS way and people should know better.

Thebirdisdone wrote: Bee's, Bats, Fish, Sea mammals, Birds. Are dying off.

How can you NOT see humour in that!

PlayonWords/Humour/WIT

birds are dying off said thebirdisdone

Im sorry, sometimes my humour is twisted that way, I found it FUNNY

birds are dying off - thebirdisdone